CLICK OR ....

[hefdaddy42]

The argument against that is, why are they using layers that they can't reproduce live themselves?  After all, that's what a "live performance" is for.

Personally, I think that's an outdated and overly narrow view of what "a live performance is for."  I dunno.  I used to be more of a "purist" in this regard.  But I've seen far too many shows where the artist's studio record has TONS of things going on that can't really be reproduced live, and they pipe that stuff in in a live setting and a are totally transparent about it, and it significantly adds to the performance for a number of reasons.  I've long since moved on from even asking that question.  It just isn't really applicable to what a lot of band's do.

I didn't say that it was MY argument.

Although I do feel that, with so many acts relying on prerecorded parts in a live setting, something has been lost.  I dunno.

[The Walrus]

The argument against that is, why are they using layers that they can't reproduce live themselves?  After all, that's what a "live performance" is for.

Personally, I think that's an outdated and overly narrow view of what "a live performance is for."  I dunno.  I used to be more of a "purist" in this regard.  But I've seen far too many shows where the artist's studio record has TONS of things going on that can't really be reproduced live, and they pipe that stuff in in a live setting and a are totally transparent about it, and it significantly adds to the performance for a number of reasons.  I've long since moved on from even asking that question.  It just isn't really applicable to what a lot of band's do.

I didn't say that it was MY argument.

Although I do feel that, with so many acts relying on prerecorded parts in a live setting, something has been lost.  I dunno.

Well, the very act of writing music has changed for most people, and I think that plays into that quite a bit.

[cramx3]

I'd rather have some piped in music/parts that cant be produced live vs a click though, but I'd typically rather drop the bells and whistles for a true live performance.  I think some bands put so much extra into their music that they feel if they didn't add it live, it would have a negative effect.

[DT1138]

So....When JP is standing 10 feet away from me playing 10,000 notes per second, am I supposed to be thinking "Gee, are those notes in time with a click track?".

Maybe it's just me, but personally I couldn't care less.  The band's gotta do what they gotta do.  I go for the show. 

[Lethean]

^^ Pretty much this.

[Anguyen92]

I honestly can't tell the difference of bands playing with a click track or not and that is indeed the case for DT.  I guess if I see one live version of a band playing a song way too fast for their own good and see a later version of that band playing the track at a more suitable temple that the song calls for, the click track has something to do with that?

[Rob24]

Still, a click track can also make the performance a bit less energetic, sacrificing tightness for safety.

[Volante99]

"Those who give up energy for security deserve neither" Benjamin Franklin probably

[Max Kuehnau]

Still, a click track can also make the performance a bit less energetic, sacrificing tightness for safety.

not sacrificing tightness for safety. Creating tightness and safety.

[bosk1]

"Those who give up energy for security deserve neither" Benjamin Franklin probably

So....When JP is standing 10 feet away from me playing 10,000 notes per second, am I supposed to be thinking "Gee, are those notes in time with a click track?".

Maybe it's just me, but personally I couldn't care less.  The band's gotta do what they gotta do.  I go for the show. 

Yeah, exactly.  I agree.  I haven't felt like the band's performance has suffered at all by playing to a click.  But the visuals are pretty great.  And if they can have all of that added in and automated so it is consistent night after night, then good for them.

[Evai]

So....When JP is standing 10 feet away from me playing 10,000 notes per second, am I supposed to be thinking "Gee, are those notes in time with a click track?".

If I want to see someone play 10,000 notes, I go on instagram or whatever. If I want to see a BAND make MUSIC, I go to a live concert

[bosk1]

Um...it's okay to go to a concert for both.

[The Walrus]

So....When JP is standing 10 feet away from me playing 10,000 notes per second, am I supposed to be thinking "Gee, are those notes in time with a click track?".

If I want to see someone play 10,000 notes, I go on instagram or whatever. If I want to see a BAND make MUSIC, I go to a live concert

This is so illogical. I guess a lot of metal bands don't make music 

[Chino]

So....When JP is standing 10 feet away from me playing 10,000 notes per second, am I supposed to be thinking "Gee, are those notes in time with a click track?".

If I want to see someone play 10,000 notes, I go on instagram or whatever. If I want to see a BAND make MUSIC, I go to a live concert

This is so illogical. I guess a lot of metal bands don't make music 

Muse and Trans Siberian Orchestra play to click tracks live. Saying that neither of those acts are making music onstage just seems dumb.

[The Walrus]

Orchestras haven't been playing real music for hundreds of years. If they were, they wouldn't need a conductor keeping tempo.  And I guess people aren't making 'real music' when they play to metronomes at home. 

[hefdaddy42]

Orchestras haven't been playing real music for hundreds of years. If they were, they wouldn't need a conductor keeping tempo.  And I guess people aren't making 'real music' when they play to metronomes at home. 

I get what you are saying, but in a rock band setting, the drummer is normally the metronome, and in some cases the conductor as well (as MP was).  If your drummer doesn't have a good sense of rhythm and tempo, then you need a different drummer, because that is supposed to come with the territory.

I am not speaking for or against click tracks in general in this post.

[Lethean]

Some of my favorite shows ever have been done with clicks, and others haven't.  If the band wants to use it, they should use it.  I think we all know that the reason Dream Theater uses a click is not because MM can't keep time and they need a different drummer.

[hefdaddy42]

Some of my favorite shows ever have been done with clicks, and others haven't.  If the band wants to use it, they should use it.  I think we all know that the reason Dream Theater uses a click is not because MM can't keep time and they need a different drummer.

For sure.  The shows with MM, which have almost all been with a click (I don't remember if they did on the Dramatic Tour), have been phenomenal. 

[Max Kuehnau]

Some of my favorite shows ever have been done with clicks, and others haven't.  If the band wants to use it, they should use it.  I think we all know that the reason Dream Theater uses a click is not because MM can't keep time and they need a different drummer.

For sure.  The shows with MM, which have almost all been with a click (I don't remember if they did on the Dramatic Tour), have been phenomenal.

I'm sure they did, you can see MM looking at an Ipad in some shots of Luna Park, so that should be a giveaway.

[bosk1]

If I am remembering correctly (and I may not be), the ADTOE were done with a click, but we didn't know that until afterwards.

[hefdaddy42]

If I am remembering correctly (and I may not be), the ADTOE were done with a click, but we didn't know that until afterwards.

Yeah, OK. 

I knew about the tours afterwards, where the click was used for (at least) timing up musical moments with lighting/visual moments.  I just didn't remember about that tour in particular, since it was the first tour without MP, who obviously never played live to a click.

[Herrick]

Makes zero difference to me, it's not something I'd ever notice.

I don't think I'd notice either, unless they played something really fucking faster than normal. But then again, maybe it would've been planned to play a particular section faster?

[Ben_Jamin]

I forgot where, but I remember reading/hearing Mangini saying he controls the click tempo, and either speeds it up or down at times. Something kind of like that.

[Sycsa]

Live shows are supposed to be faster, it helps make up for the loss of extra production you get in an album. If you play at the exact same tempo, then it's just the same, but... less. That's why all the bands are piping in extra tracks and rhythm guitars, and it just becomes some quest to recreate the album exactly. Which is what some people want, I suppose.

Wow I so disagree with this post. Live shows are not "supposed" to be faster, there's no doctrine set by the musical community that demands this. Metallica rushes the bajesus out of For Whom The Bell Tolls live and it sounds awful because that midtempo marching feeling is completely lost and that adds to the atmosphere of the song. When they rush it it sounds like they just want to get it over with ASAP. Tempo is every bit as important as anything else in a given song and I for one would rather have bands play the songs in the tempo they were written originally unless they're playing the song in a completely different style/genre. Just taking the same song and speeding it up ruins it imo.

Yeah, this is the most essential aspect of the question for me too. I mostly agree with the first comment though. Note that I'll be talking mostly about live albums here, because, when you're at a show, you're caught in the moment and all of this is way less important, if at all noticeable.

When I was a kid and was discovering rock music, putting on a live album and getting hit by that "wow, this is so ENERGY, so POWER" - feeling was the best. Just think about hearing Victim of Changes off of Unleashed in the East (https://youtu.be/8J9zyviTTmQ) for the very first time after only being familiar with the studio version for years (https://youtu.be/EKSU1W0ZUmQ). It kicks ass (and balls) like nothing else. For me, that's what live albums are all about. That's why I loved Deep Purple, they always took their songs to strange new places live. And overall I still prefer the studio version of Victim of Changes, but had they played live to a click, I would never even listen to Unleashed in the East.

Dream Theater has become too sterile in the Mangini-era. JP's muddy tone, the jarringly odd-sounding backing vocal tracks and the stiffness that comes with playing to a click haunt their latest live releases.
It's especially noticeable with songs like As I Am, which just screams for a faster tempo live. Live Scenes, Budokan, or Score, while none of them are perfect, have a much greater replay value than any live album DT released in the last decade. When I put in Breaking the Fourth wall, I feel like I might as well just pop in the better sounding studio versions of the songs. Live albums need to offer something extra in exchange for sounding way more rough. With playing to a click, you take away a big chunk of the chance to end up with something different and interesting.

[Setlist Scotty]

I forgot where, but I remember reading/hearing Mangini saying he controls the click tempo, and either speeds it up or down at times. Something kind of like that.

Would love to see the source of where you read this, because I personally find it hard to believe. Supposedly a big reason why JP insists that they play to a click now is to stay in sync with the video and light show. If MM has the option of speeding up or slowing down the click tempo, that would defeat the purpose of the click.

When I was a kid and was discovering rock music, putting on a live album and getting hit by that "wow, this is so ENERGY, so POWER" - feeling was the best. Just think about hearing Victim of Changes off of Unleashed in the East (https://youtu.be/8J9zyviTTmQ) for the very first time after only being familiar with the studio version for years (https://youtu.be/EKSU1W0ZUmQ). It kicks ass (and balls) like nothing else. For me, that's what live albums are all about. That's why I loved Deep Purple, they always took their songs to strange new places live. And overall I still prefer the studio version of Victim of Changes, but had they played live to click, I would never even listen to Unleashed in the East.

Dream Theater has become too sterile in the Mangini-era. JP's muddy tone, the jarringly odd-sounding backing vocal tracks and the stiffness that comes with playing to a click haunt their latest live releases.
It's especially noticeable with songs like As I Am, which just screams for a faster tempo live. Live Scenes, Budokan or Score, while none of them are perfect, have a much greater replay value than any live album DT released in the last decade. When I put in Breaking the Fourth wall, I feel like I might as well just pop in the better sounding studio versions of the songs. Live albums need to offer something extra in exchange for sounding way more rough. With playing to a click, you take away a big chunk of the chance to end up with something different and interesting.

Beautiful post Sycsa! Your comment about Victim of Changes reminds me of my feelings about Maiden's performance of Revelations on Live After Death, although that live album was my first introduction to Maiden. So when I later heard the original version of the song, I couldn't believe how plodding and ssssslllllloooooooooowwww it was. I'll take the live version of it any day, just because of the energy of it, even though the original version has much more going on with the instrumentation.

[hefdaddy42]

I forgot where, but I remember reading/hearing Mangini saying he controls the click tempo, and either speeds it up or down at times. Something kind of like that.

Would love to see the source of where you read this, because I personally find it hard to believe. Supposedly a big reason why JP insists that they play to a click now is to stay in sync with the video and light show. If MM has the option of speeding up or slowing down the click tempo, that would defeat the purpose of the click.

Exactly.

[Ben_Jamin]

I forgot where, but I remember reading/hearing Mangini saying he controls the click tempo, and either speeds it up or down at times. Something kind of like that.

Would love to see the source of where you read this, because I personally find it hard to believe. Supposedly a big reason why JP insists that they play to a click now is to stay in sync with the video and light show. If MM has the option of speeding up or slowing down the click tempo, that would defeat the purpose of the click.

Exactly.

I don't have a source. I thought I read/heard that somewhere though, an interview most likely. So take what I said with a grain of dust.

I agree some songs sound awesome sped up. But that is where I go 50/50 with having a click vs not. Portnoy had a tendency to speed up the slow songs, causing the emotion to be lost (Disappear L@B). Using the Click now makes them play to the album tempo, which makes the emotion those slower songs convey in studio shine live. I believe Myung said he enjoys playing the songs in the album tempo.

Room 137 will not work without a click to keep them in the 137 tempo that is crucial to the concept of the song. It can't be sped up or slowed down.

[Setlist Scotty]

I agree some songs sound awesome sped up. But that is where I go 50/50 with having a click vs not. Portnoy had a tendency to speed up the slow songs, causing the emotion to be lost (Disappear L@B). Using the Click now makes them play to the album tempo, which makes the emotion those slower songs convey in studio shine live.

The vast majority of the time, having the songs played slightly faster doesn't detract from them at all - it enhances them. When those songs are played at album tempo live, they actually come off sounding slow. ToT from the 2014 tour is a good example of that.

There is the exception to the rule tho - a handful of ballads like Disappear do benefit from being played slower - I agree. But let's be clear regarding the performance on L@B: JR is to blame for that song being performed quickly, because he was the one who set the pace.