CLICK OR ....

[jadiggerdt]

Today DT plays with clicks and follows a fixed pattern due to sound and light. Before more dynamic and a little more improvisation. What fits DT best and what do you think?

[Max Kuehnau]

Clicktracks only. Precision is everything in music (to me anyway).

[gzarruk]

If we're talking about the whole show experience, syncing up the music, lights and videos with a click track is a must. That way the show runs smoother and everything is more precise. Many bands play to a click these days, and I believe many fans complain about DT using it because they were used to MP rushing on most songs.

[Evai]

I prefer no click, for both listening and playing. I enjoy the dynamic between drummer and guitarist, how you can look at each other and feel the music, subconciously dragging or rushing the tempo to compliment each other. With a click, it's all gone. Everyone just follows the numbers and it sounds like the album. Great, I guess.

[Max Kuehnau]

If we're talking about the whole show experience, syncing up the music, lights and videos with a click track is a must. That way the show runs smoother and everything is more precise. Many bands play to a click these days, and I believe many fans complain about DT using it because they were used to MP rushing on most songs.

probably yes. (I'm not complaining, I'm very very relieved they do ever since MM joined. All the Portnoy-era shows I attended were a mess and left me (mostly) very dissatisfied.)

[Volante99]

I think the synching with the video is cool (especially on the Along for the Ride tour) but I'd gladly give it up for a more organic experience with no click...at least for one of these tours. Felt the video was pretty unnecessary and barely paid attention to it during this D/T tour. Click track is absolutely not necessary to have a good light show as well.

But I get that concert goers expect the entire "package", especially now that big name bands have really pushed the envelope the past decade or so.

[DoctorAction]

No click for me. The drummer is there to set the tempo and keep time. I won't go and see DT again until I hear they drop the click. (Seriously)

[Peter Mc]

Makes zero difference to me, it's not something I'd ever notice.

[Setlist Scotty]

No click. It's unnecessary. To me, it feels like cheating and as it is, I prefer it to be a more organic experience. With regards to syncing it to the lights and video - it can still be done without a click track (especially given how consistent MM is), but it just takes more effort by the lighting and video guys.

It is interesting to note that I heard from a number of people who attended The Shattered Fortress shows (I was unable) that those shows had the vibe of old DT shows that people miss since MP left the band. I think DT sticking to a click track is definitely part of the reason why that was the case.

Anyway, I think Neil Peart summed it up best:

Until the Clockwork Angels tour I had never used a click track live, except once years ago to stay in sync with a rear-screen film. For this tour it was helpful because we had eight string players in the Clockwork Angels String Ensemble, and they sometimes needed it when I wasn't playing. Even in certain passages when I was playing, it helped us all to stay together.

I was also required to stay in tempo with some long, legato sequences of keyboard or vocal effects, and the tambo-click helped with that, too. Even so, I am glad to say that the click appears in only a tiny percentage of the show, and only when absolutely necessary - or at least, "absolutely helpful."

On most songs, I prefer to hold it together myself, and let the band be a living, breathing organism that can push and pull naturally. These days many bands perform to a preprogrammed basic track, often a computerized software program. We always resisted that rigidity.

That's one area where I wish JP would apply his "What would Rush do?" mantra.

[gzarruk]

It is interesting to note that I heard from a number of people who attended The Shattered Fortress shows (I was unable) that those shows had the vibe of old DT shows that people miss since MP left the band. I think DT sticking to a click track is definitely part of the reason why that was the case.

You mean the rushed to death songs? That might be it.

[NoFred]

I miss MP in the studio and that creative tension. But not live. Live belongs to JP JLB JR.

[Volante99]

It is interesting to note that I heard from a number of people who attended The Shattered Fortress shows (I was unable) that those shows had the vibe of old DT shows that people miss since MP left the band. I think DT sticking to a click track is definitely part of the reason why that was the case.

You mean the rushed to death songs? That might be it.

I think you're being a tiny bit dramatic. It's not like we are talking Lars Ulrich, here. I only remember him occasionally getting carried away during instrumental/solo sections, and some of these songs benefit live from a little extra intensity.

[Madman Shepherd]

Here's what I know: I've seen Dream Theater about a dozen times, 4 with Portnoy, the rest with Mangini. By and large, the better shows have been with Mangini. My instincts say to not use a click but you can't argue with what you see.

[gzarruk]

It is interesting to note that I heard from a number of people who attended The Shattered Fortress shows (I was unable) that those shows had the vibe of old DT shows that people miss since MP left the band. I think DT sticking to a click track is definitely part of the reason why that was the case.

You mean the rushed to death songs? That might be it.

I think you're being a tiny bit dramatic. It's not like we are talking Lars Ulrich, here. I only remember him occasionally getting carried away during instrumental/solo sections, and some of these songs benefit live from a little extra intensity.

Sorry that I was a bit too harsh/dramatic. I've never seen DT live, but I've seen a ton of live videos and official live releases. There's some instances where MP was clearly rushing, one example is New Millenium on the Budokan show, when he comes in, it speeds up like crazy. Is this bad? Yes and no. It all depends on what you want to achieve with the show you're offering. Sometimes doing it raw and "free" is what's best, even though some stuff might be translated as sloppy (and MP can be sometimes in a live setting). Sometimes going the click track route is what's best. I'm nowhere near to being a professional musician, but I've performed both with and without a click on different scenarios/situations, and I can say from my own experience that the click helps you a lot to get a tighter performance for the whole band. But, again, it's all personal preference.

Going back to DT, should they use a click track live or not? It's up to them, but I don't think they should be criticized for doing it, and I don't think it should affect the overall enjoyment of the show for somebody. It's not like they ditched prog metal and became a Justin Bieber cover band or anything like that. And, to go back to the MP Shattered Fortress shows, some people took it too far by saying it felt more like DT than current DT, and that just doesn't make any sense. JP + JLB + JM + JR + MM is a thousand times more "DT" than MP with a cover band consisting of Haken and JP junior.

[Peter Mc]

It is interesting to note that I heard from a number of people who attended The Shattered Fortress shows (I was unable) that those shows had the vibe of old DT shows that people miss since MP left the band. I think DT sticking to a click track is definitely part of the reason why that was the case.

I think that the vast majority of people attending those shows were Portnoy diehards and were predisposed to make that kind of comment. I really don't get that much of a different vibe with or without Portnoy in concert.  Yes he's more of a show-off than Mangini so you lose that a little but the band doesn't sound drastically different. LaBrie has also picked up a bit of the slack in the showmanship stakes to make up for losing Portnoy's stage presence. Don't get me wrong, he's no Jon Bon Jovi but he's a more engaging frontman now than he was a few years ago.

I'm not anti Portnoy by any means and would have no problem with him coming back (Id love an LTE album too) but I think it kills his diehard fans that the band has pretty much seamlessly moved on without him for 4 albums now without breaking their stride. Whilst all the new bands he's got involved with have been largely unsuccessful both commercially and, in my opinion, artistically as well.

[Lonk]

Sorry that I was a bit too harsh/dramatic. I've never seen DT live, but I've seen a ton of live videos and official live releases.

How come?

[gzarruk]

Sorry that I was a bit too harsh/dramatic. I've never seen DT live, but I've seen a ton of live videos and official live releases.

How come?

They only came here once, and I was 14 at that time. Never had the chance again

[Evai]

Live shows are supposed to be faster, it helps make up for the loss of extra production you get in an album. If you play at the exact same tempo, then it's just the same, but... less. That's why all the bands are piping in extra tracks and rhythm guitars, and it just becomes some quest to recreate the album exactly. Which is what some people want, I suppose.

[The Walrus]

Live shows are supposed to be faster, it helps make up for the loss of extra production you get in an album. If you play at the exact same tempo, then it's just the same, but... less. That's why all the bands are piping in extra tracks and rhythm guitars, and it just becomes some quest to recreate the album exactly. Which is what some people want, I suppose.

Wow I so disagree with this post. Live shows are not "supposed" to be faster, there's no doctrine set by the musical community that demands this. Metallica rushes the bajesus out of For Whom The Bell Tolls live and it sounds awful because that midtempo marching feeling is completely lost and that adds to the atmosphere of the song. When they rush it it sounds like they just want to get it over with ASAP. Tempo is every bit as important as anything else in a given song and I for one would rather have bands play the songs in the tempo they were written originally unless they're playing the song in a completely different style/genre. Just taking the same song and speeding it up ruins it imo.

[Chino]

No click for me. The drummer is there to set the tempo and keep time. I won't go and see DT again until I hear they drop the click. (Seriously)

This seems a bit extreme.

[mikeyd23]

No click for me. The drummer is there to set the tempo and keep time. I won't go and see DT again until I hear they drop the click. (Seriously)

This seems a bit extreme.

Yeah, just a bit. 

Just saw DT last night, sounded great. IMO, this was the best DT I've seen in terms of lighting and video production, so if the click helps that, it's all good with me. I'm a firm believer that bands can sound great live with a click, and bands can sound great live without a click.

[Lethean]

^^ What Mikey said.

Add me to the "don't care" group.  I've seen them with MP and they were fantastic.  I've seen them with MM and they were fantastic.  I never remotely thought the shows with MP were so problematic or a mess or whatever.  I've never thought the shows with MM are stiff or less exciting. I get there being a slight preference for click or not or MM vs MP but really both are great and the band has always put on great shows. 

I do prefer the band now, but it has nothing to do with a click track.

[cramx3]

I prefer no click, and don't be fooled by the lighting/visual excuses for using it.  Yes, that helps, but plenty of bands don't use clicks and have bigger and better lighting/visuals.  It simply helps them as a band perform more flawlessly.  I get it, but I prefer a live organic sound even if faster.  I think that's actually one of the best things to not playing to a click, you get the band performing with feel from the vibe in the room.

[The Walrus]

I prefer no click, and don't be fooled by the lighting/visual excuses for using it.  Yes, that helps, but plenty of bands don't use clicks and have bigger and better lighting/visuals.  It simply helps them as a band perform more flawlessly.  I get it, but I prefer a live organic sound even if faster.  I think that's actually one of the best things to not playing to a click, you get the band performing with feel from the vibe in the room.

Gotta say, seeing Toto live is a real treat; they don't use a click, their jams are organic, and the lights are dope. Real talent there, and proof that not playing to a click, if your band can help it, really does enhance the experience particularly if the musicians have the chops to break into whatever style, tempo, etc. they want to at any given moment.

[hefdaddy42]

I prefer no click, and don't be fooled by the lighting/visual excuses for using it.  Yes, that helps, but plenty of bands don't use clicks and have bigger and better lighting/visuals.  It simply helps them as a band perform more flawlessly.  I get it, but I prefer a live organic sound even if faster.  I think that's actually one of the best things to not playing to a click, you get the band performing with feel from the vibe in the room.

This, I guess.  I mean, I have certainly loved seeing DT live every time, and knowing that they are on a click doesn't detract for me.  But they don't really need it.  Mangini is a machine, he certainly doesn't need it.

I think bands that always use a click are cheating people just a bit.  I would prefer to see how they perform when they just go, with no net.  That's more "live".

Again, I know why DT does it.

The other thing against it is there is no room for spontaneity in their current shows.  The show is the show.  No room for extended solos or jams, no rooms for "warping" Pull Me Under to throw off Labrie (lol), no room for anything unexpected.  It's a little cookie cutter for my tastes, especially with absolutely no setlist variation.

I love what they are doing.  I just wish they would allow themselves a little more freedom.

[TAC]

No click....we're at a concert
Click...we're attending a performance

[cramx3]

When I saw Elton John back in January this year, he made a comment to the crowd about using clicks.  I don't remember exactly the wording, but essentially called musicians who use it a very vulgar term.   

[The Walrus]

I mean there's gotta be a time and place for them, right? It's like saying any band that uses backing tracks is a [grumble grumble something unpleasant or derogatory]. Well, a LOT of bands these days need backing tracks for all the layers in their music, especially a lot of the artsier metal bands.

[hefdaddy42]

I mean there's gotta be a time and place for them, right? It's like saying any band that uses backing tracks is a [grumble grumble something unpleasant or derogatory]. Well, a LOT of bands these days need backing tracks for all the layers in their music, especially a lot of the artsier metal bands.

The argument against that is, why are they using layers that they can't reproduce live themselves?  After all, that's what a "live performance" is for.

Regardless, DT isn't that kind of band.  They aren't really doing it for musical reasons (other than prerecorded background vocals, which many times aren't really necessary anyway).

[bosk1]

The argument against that is, why are they using layers that they can't reproduce live themselves?  After all, that's what a "live performance" is for.

Personally, I think that's an outdated and overly narrow view of what "a live performance is for."  I dunno.  I used to be more of a "purist" in this regard.  But I've seen far too many shows where the artist's studio record has TONS of things going on that can't really be reproduced live, and they pipe that stuff in in a live setting and a are totally transparent about it, and it significantly adds to the performance for a number of reasons.  I've long since moved on from even asking that question.  It just isn't really applicable to what a lot of band's do.

Regardless, DT isn't that kind of band.  They aren't really doing it for musical reasons (other than prerecorded background vocals, which many times aren't really necessary anyway).

I wouldn't say that. 

[cramx3]

I think DT are perfectionists and playing to a click brings them closer to performing perfect.  It seems some of the fan base has that expectation of perfection as well.  I just wish perfection wasn't the goal but a fun experience was, and to me, to make it more fun means to take away the click and add the feels. 

[The Walrus]

The argument against that is, why are they using layers that they can't reproduce live themselves?  After all, that's what a "live performance" is for.

Personally, I think that's an outdated and overly narrow view of what "a live performance is for."  I dunno.  I used to be more of a "purist" in this regard.  But I've seen far too many shows where the artist's studio record has TONS of things going on that can't really be reproduced live, and they pipe that stuff in in a live setting and a are totally transparent about it, and it significantly adds to the performance for a number of reasons.  I've long since moved on from even asking that question.  It just isn't really applicable to what a lot of band's do.

Completely agreed.

[DoctorAction]

No click for me. The drummer is there to set the tempo and keep time. I won't go and see DT again until I hear they drop the click. (Seriously)

This seems a bit extreme.

Yeah, just a bit. 

Just saw DT last night, sounded great. IMO, this was the best DT I've seen in terms of lighting and video production, so if the click helps that, it's all good with me. I'm a firm believer that bands can sound great live with a click, and bands can sound great live without a click.

When I see a band live I want to see more of who they are under the polish. A more organic, spontaneous incarnation. LIVE. Not rigid and fixed.

[geeeemo]

There are a lot of good points on both sides and I have similar feelings both ways.  But, I enjoy the concerts so much I don't really care in the end. Just give me good, loud, metal music!

[mikeyd23]

No click for me. The drummer is there to set the tempo and keep time. I won't go and see DT again until I hear they drop the click. (Seriously)

This seems a bit extreme.

Yeah, just a bit. 

Just saw DT last night, sounded great. IMO, this was the best DT I've seen in terms of lighting and video production, so if the click helps that, it's all good with me. I'm a firm believer that bands can sound great live with a click, and bands can sound great live without a click.

When I see a band live I want to see more of who they are under the polish. A more organic, spontaneous incarnation. LIVE. Not rigid and fixed.

Cool, me too. When I saw DT a couple nights ago the words rigid and fixed did not come to mind once.