UPDATED w/Distance Over Time- Train of Thought: Dream Theater's Last Great Album

[OptionalPlayer]

Long time no post.

Since the announcement of Dream Theater's new album, I've been thinking about what their last great album was. I've been sitting on this for a while and have come to a conclusion: it's Train of Thought. Why? Well I'd post why, but I don't think I can post 6400 words in here.

I go through every album post-Train of Thought and gently dissect most of the songs on each album.

If you don't want to leave a comment on the blog, by all means leave one here. I'll be popping back here to respond when I can.

I feel this may generate some fun discussion. . .

https://uncannyderek.com/2018/08/02/train-of-thought-dream-theaters-last-great-album/

Enjoy!

[ToT-147]

Great! I'll read it when I have some time off!... But I agree 100% with that statement, as my username might let you guess..

[Sebastián Pratesi]

Hi, Derek. I read your article. I don't agree with the main idea, but you bring up some interesting points. My best friend's favourite DT song is "Honor thy father" as well. Too bad you didn't write much about "Stream of consciousness" - Train of thought was my first DT album, and that was the piece that made me fall in love with the band.

Anyway, here is some feedback, in case you are interested:

• You say that "they hadn't written anything really "new" for The Shattered Fortress at all", but - isn't the 'Responsible' verse -right before the "The glass prison" reprise- exclusive to this suite's song? (Both in terms of lyrics and chord progression/riffs.)
• DT14 will be the band's first album on their new label. I understood you didn't like Systematic chaos that much, but maybe this can make you hopeful? Plus, it will feature James first lyrics since 2011, and music written by Mangini, who didn't get to do that for The Astonishing. Sounds like something special!
• What's your favourite album by the band? That would be a great read! (I haven't checked the rest of your blog, so I don't know whether you've written about it or not.)
• As for your question at the end: I guess it depends on your definition of "last great album" but, to me, The Astonishing was great, and it's their latest. So there!

[Phoenix87x]

TOT was the last DT album that I truly loved, through and through.

Then I checked out for 3 albums and started to get back on board with ADTOE, a decent album and I really like DT as well, but did they lead to obsession as with TOT? No. And I don't think I've listened to TA more than twice. Probably 1.5 really, since honestly I don't think I even made it through the 2nd listen.

Looking forward to the new album though.

[OptionalPlayer]

Hey Sebastian! Thanks for reading it and leaving some feedback.

• You say that "they hadn't written anything really "new" for The Shattered Fortress at all", but - isn't the 'Responsible' verse -right before the "The glass prison" reprise- exclusive to this suite's song? (Both in terms of lyrics and chord progression/riffs.)
• DT14 will be the band's first album on their new label. I understood you didn't like Systematic chaos that much, but maybe this can make you hopeful? Plus, it will feature James first lyrics since 2011, and music written by Mangini, who didn't get to do that for The Astonishing. Sounds like something special!
• What's your favourite album by the band? That would be a great read! (I haven't checked the rest of your blog, so I don't know whether you've written about it or not.)
• As for your question at the end: I guess it depends on your definition of "last great album" but, to me, The Astonishing was great, and it's their latest. So there!

1. Part of my comment was tongue-in-cheek. You're absolutely correct: they did write some new material for The Shattered Fortress.
2. I am definitely hopeful for the new album. I wouldn't still be a Dream Theater fan if I wasn't! I'm definitely excited to hear what Mangini will finally bring to the table in terms of songwriting. I'm growing a bit tired of Petrucci's lyrics and structures.
3. My favourite album of the band is Images & Words. However, I can safely say it is not their best album. I would argue Scenes From a Memory is their best album. Explaining my opinions (even when they would be contradictory when arguing for I&W) on the matter would definitely be its own separate essay.
4. And that's the beauty of it all! You stating The Astonishing is their last great album is super intriguing to me. While I wouldn't expect anyone else to go full throttle like how I did to justify their opinion, I completely can appreciate your feelings for that. I just happen to disagree is all. 

[KevShmev]

Not sure how it can be their last great album when it isn't a great album.  Sounds like a paradox.

[TAC]

Not sure how it can be their last great album when it isn't a great album.  Sounds like a paradox.

That post is only 20 words. You've got 6,380 more to explain yourself.

[KevShmev]

Not sure how it can be their last great album when it isn't a great album.  Sounds like a paradox.

That post is only 20 words. You've got 6,380 more to explain yourself.

Not sure how it can be their last great album when it isn't a great album.  Sounds like a paradox.
Not sure how it can be their last great album when it isn't a great album.  Sounds like a paradox.
Not sure how it can be their last great album when it isn't a great album.  Sounds like a paradox.
Not sure how it can be their last great album when it isn't a great album.  Sounds like a paradox.
Not sure how it can be their last great album when it isn't a great album.  Sounds like a paradox.
Not sure how it can be their last great album when it isn't a great album.  Sounds like a paradox.
Not sure how it can be their last great album when it isn't a great album.  Sounds like a paradox.
Not sure how it can be their last great album when it isn't a great album.  Sounds like a paradox.
Not sure how it can be their last great album when it isn't a great album.  Sounds like a paradox.
Not sure how it can be their last great album when it isn't a great album.  Sounds like a paradox.

Multiply that by 32 and we're done.

[TAC]

BartShmev

[KevShmev]

[goo-goo]

In my opinion, the last great DT album was Six Degrees, the 1st disc. Disc 1 is perfectly crafted where even the instrumental sections of the songs sound very cohesive and actually belong to the song (even the noise section on Misunderstood feels right and fits the song). Disc 1 feels adventurous and experimental, while still keeping the DT signature sound. I do hope that DT14 feels this way.

One of ToT flaws are some sections on the instrumental sections on some songs...like the ragtime piano thing on Endless Sacrifice, the endless instrumental incoherent section on This Dying Soul, and some of the instrumental parts on In the name of God. I believe if those sections on ToT were trimmed and/or made more coherent, the album would have been perfect. I love the heavyness of ToT, balls to the wall, non-stop riffing...but those instrumental parts just feel wrong and out of place, they drag, and are just awfully distracting.

[Lethean]

As I probably said on the FII thread, The Astonishing was their last great album.

[gzarruk]

As I probably said on the FII thread, The Astonishing was their last great album.

Indeed!

[pcs90]

I find Train of Thought to be one of DT's most boring albums, to be honest. Lots of filler, the solos are mostly all just noodling and it's basically just heavy all the way through (I realize this was the band's intent.)
I am honestly surprised that the article states there is no excessive noodling. That's basically what all the instrumental sections (and most of SOC for that matter) are to me on this album. I'll take the often disliked instrumental section in Outcry over any of the stuff on here any day.
Now, I will say ITNOG is excellent; by far the best track on the album and it has a lot of impact. I also do like ES although if it was up to me the song would be shortened considerably.

Moving on to the next albums. Why must every album have a similar style throughout? I personally find that boring. Octavarium ranks somewhere in the middle for me, but that album is fairly diverse which I think is good; as a first time listener you never know what to expect.
The continuum part on Octavarium, at least in studio, is great. So is These Walls and while IWBY is pretty generic I don't have a problem with it. SF is very emotional; I agree some of it seems out of place though. I always viewed the middle instrumental as the frantic feelings of people during the event. I did cut a bit of it out on my personal listening copy though.

ITPOE part 1 does contain a lot of themes, yes. And many of them do get revisited in the second part, if only in the instrumental section. ITPOE part 1 is, in fact, the only track on SC that I enjoy.

ANTR has a lot of filler. So does TSF. TBOT's guitar solo is amazing, full of emotion, and quite possibly the best part of that album for me. We certainly hear these songs a lot differently from each other!

As for the last 3 albums, I think they're great and disagree with a lot of things said in the article, so I won't go through all of that as it'd take too long.

[MirrorMask]

Since the announcement of Dream Theater's new album, I've been thinking about what their last great album was.

The Astonishing, of course.

Next?

[Bertielee]

Since the announcement of Dream Theater's new album, I've been thinking about what their last great album was.

The Astonishing, of course.

Next?

[noxon]

Your "analysis" confirms a thought I've had for some time. The people who are unhappy with TA are the ones who prefer the heavier, wankier side of DT. ToT in itself was highly controversial in the fan base when it was released, and it was a kind of watershed moment for DT - it gained a lot of new fans (the metal heads who enjoy extended sections of "wank") but lost a lot of older fans (the prog heads). Your analysis as to which songs after ToT were "okay" for you shows that you expected DT to be more ToT-like - because everything that is not "that" is "filler" to you. The fact that 3-4 minute long songs don't count as songs to you (TA) is telling. But I guess that's also a lack of experience with the actual "musical" format that the TA is using - it's very similar to how Les Miserables or Jesus Christ Superstar is built up.

For me, the strength of DT has always been their ability to do be very multifaceted - my fav DT songs aren't the technical songs - they're usually the more melodic ones.

[Destiny Of Chaos]

The Astonishing: Dream Theater's Last Great Album

[OptionalPlayer]

One of ToT flaws are some sections on the instrumental sections on some songs...like the ragtime piano thing on Endless Sacrifice, the endless instrumental incoherent section on This Dying Soul, and some of the instrumental parts on In the name of God. I believe if those sections on ToT were trimmed and/or made more coherent, the album would have been perfect. I love the heavyness of ToT, balls to the wall, non-stop riffing...but those instrumental parts just feel wrong and out of place, they drag, and are just awfully distracting.

I can't help but agree with these statements. They were the weakest parts on ToT.

I find Train of Thought to be one of DT's most boring albums, to be honest. Lots of filler, the solos are mostly all just noodling and it's basically just heavy all the way through (I realize this was the band's intent.)
I am honestly surprised that the article states there is no excessive noodling. That's basically what all the instrumental sections (and most of SOC for that matter) are to me on this album. I'll take the often disliked instrumental section in Outcry over any of the stuff on here any day.
Now, I will say ITNOG is excellent; by far the best track on the album and it has a lot of impact. I also do like ES although if it was up to me the song would be shortened considerably.

I can see what you're saying. In ways, I do agree (especially with ES and parts of TDS as mentioned above). And obviously we both agree with ES. I don't feel that there's excessive noodling on ToT like you do, however. The instrumental moments on ToT feel a lot more restrained and pulled-back than in later albums. I hoped to convey that in my blog post but perhaps I failed in doing so.

Moving on to the next albums. Why must every album have a similar style throughout? I personally find that boring. Octavarium ranks somewhere in the middle for me, but that album is fairly diverse which I think is good; as a first time listener you never know what to expect.

Don't get me wrong: the albums don't need to have a similar style. It's more that I felt ToT was their last great album because it was the last album that was concise and structured. The sort order of the songs, the tightness of the performances, and the overall "feel" of the album all flowed together nicely. While certainly Octavarium and later albums showed a lot more variety (I credit ADToE for the variety and sort order), the remaining albums, in my opinion, failed at what structural magic ToT captured.

That all being said, I absolutely appreciate your take on what I said and about the songs you've listed. Ultimately there's no right or wrong answer here. Just a fun discussion with fans.

Your "analysis" confirms a thought I've had for some time. The people who are unhappy with TA are the ones who prefer the heavier, wankier side of DT. ToT in itself was highly controversial in the fan base when it was released, and it was a kind of watershed moment for DT - it gained a lot of new fans (the metal heads who enjoy extended sections of "wank") but lost a lot of older fans (the prog heads). Your analysis as to which songs after ToT were "okay" for you shows that you expected DT to be more ToT-like - because everything that is not "that" is "filler" to you. The fact that 3-4 minute long songs don't count as songs to you (TA) is telling. But I guess that's also a lack of experience with the actual "musical" format that the TA is using - it's very similar to how Les Miserables or Jesus Christ Superstar is built up.

For me, the strength of DT has always been their ability to do be very multifaceted - my fav DT songs aren't the technical songs - they're usually the more melodic ones.

You're totally right about ToT's release. That's something I probably should have mentioned when establishing the article as it obviously is an important note to make.

I wasn't expecting post-ToT albums to be "ToT" like as in heaviness. I applaud The Looking Glass, This is the Life, Far From Heaven, Beneath the Surface, Vacant, Trial of Tears, the beauty at the end of The Count of Tuscany, and even say that if DT made an album of ballads I'd buy it. I also slam Dark Eternal, Outcry, and other heavier songs. My take was that ToT as an album is stronger than any other album DT released after it. I feel that the songs off of ToT, while sure are heavier, are at least more precise than the rest of the songs.

Regarding The Astonishing: comparing it to something Jesus Christ Superstar would be correct. However, I'd leave writing that to the pros like Pain of Salvation. DT did it and sure, it makes sense. It was as bold to do as releasing ToT. But as a progressive metal band, releasing an album ToT made sense. As a progressive metal band, releasing The Astonishing does not. I feel it shows in their writing (and oh my goodness, dat story tho). I don't dislike the idea of The Astonishing.

[noxon]

Why not? There's been a ton of progressive acts that have done rock operas - why would it be different for DT? I mean, PoS would be a perfect example of that - Be is very very different from their previous albums, and was very controversial in their fanbase. And similarly - The Wall wasn't on a format that fans of Pink Floyd would "expect" the album to be - and yet, today, it stands as a milestone among the PF albums.

I'd argue that The Astonishing is still very much DT. It has shorter songs, sure, but they're more like movements in a full suite. If you break up a DT epic like A Nightmare to Remember or Illumination Theory or Octavarium, you find the same "structure". It's just that the Astonishing much more delinated the change between sections with breaks than those epics did - because it tried harder to be a product related to a specific style - the sung through rock opera.

[Skeever]

Your "analysis" confirms a thought I've had for some time. The people who are unhappy with TA are the ones who prefer the heavier, wankier side of DT.

I don't think it's that binary lol

[Bertielee]

Your "analysis" confirms a thought I've had for some time. The people who are unhappy with TA are the ones who prefer the heavier, wankier side of DT.

I don't think it's that binary lol

Lol aside, that's what I was wanting to say : I love TA and I also love ToT. They are not mutually exclusive. And I've been a longtime fan (25 years).

B.Lee

[noxon]

Nothing is binary, it's always a "shades of grey" issue, but the most common complaint I've seen to TA is exactly that - it's not heavy enough, it's not long enough, it's got too few solos.

[The Walrus]

ToT tries too hard to be something that isn't a natural part of DT's DNA. It tries too hard to be heavy, brooding, and dark, things that just aren't organic qualities of Dream Theater's music. The Astonishing is far more in line with that (and it should be noted I don't consider myself a 'prog' lover, if given the choice between straightforward but energetic music and ridiculous prog songwriting, I'll go with the former unless the prog songwriting is outstanding).

[Another_Won]

One of ToT flaws are some sections on the instrumental sections on some songs...like the ragtime piano thing on Endless Sacrifice, the endless instrumental incoherent section on This Dying Soul, and some of the instrumental parts on In the name of God. I believe if those sections on ToT were trimmed and/or made more coherent, the album would have been perfect. I love the heavyness of ToT, balls to the wall, non-stop riffing...but those instrumental parts just feel wrong and out of place, they drag, and are just awfully distracting.

I can't help but agree with these statements. They were the weakest parts on ToT.

I find it pretty funny how diverse people's opinions of DT are.  I believe those sections to be (IMO) the best parts and why ToT is one of my favorite DT albums.

It's been mentioned before, but one reason why DT is successful is that they appeal to prog and metal fans alike.

[MirrorMask]

ToT tries too hard to be something that isn't a natural part of DT's DNA. It tries too hard to be heavy, brooding, and dark, things that just aren't organic qualities of Dream Theater's music.

I'd call Awake heavy, brooding and dark, and it's one of their best album ever.

But I'm not the biggest fan of TOT, because of the reasons addressed by goo-goo.

[The Walrus]

Awake is a bit different to me. They're a younger band, they just sound much hungrier, that kind of stuff serves the aggression way better than something like Honor Thy Father in my opinion. Then again, I can't stand Voices and Scarred so what do I know 

[Lethean]

I get what Noxon is saying; I do think it's more complicated than that, but what he's saying does apply to some listeners.  I personally love both Train of Thought and The Astonishing, and think it's pretty cool to have both of those albums, which are so different, from the same band.

I think Noxon's take is on the long instrumental passages - Train of Thought losing some of the older fans because of the long extended sections, whereas the metal fans liked that.  Maybe that's true because they were long extended metal section?  I love DT's instrumental sections, but I've heard long extended sections from older prog bands, or just older bands like The Who or Led Zeppelin, that make me wonder when, if ever, they're ever going to end.  I don't think it's because they're not heavy enough... but maybe that has something to do it with?  Just an interesting side note because for me, DT can do it and I love it (yet I also love TA where they don't do it) but that's not always the case with more old school bands.

[Dublagent66]

Not again.  All DT albums were the last great album at one point and so on, and so forth.  Just like the next one and the one after that, because everything DT does is great according to some people.   

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Not again.  All DT albums were the last great album at one point and so on, and so forth.  Just like the next one and the one after that, because everything DT does is great according to some people.   

Well, this is a fan forum. It would be a little odd if we were ranking every album a 4.3/10 like Pitchfork.

[Mladen]

I've been around since Black clouds came out. Similarly, every album since then including Black clouds was "the best one since X" for some fans, no exception. It's the same since "the last great album was X" group.

[Dream Team]

When Dream and Day Unite: DT's last great album. I have 6,000 words to prove it so I must be right.

Seriously though, a preposterous thread title.

[chucke]

In my opinion, the last great DT album was Six Degrees, the 1st disc. Disc 1 is perfectly crafted where even the instrumental sections of the songs sound very cohesive and actually belong to the song (even the noise section on Misunderstood feels right and fits the song). Disc 1 feels adventurous and experimental, while still keeping the DT signature sound. I do hope that DT14 feels this way.

One of ToT flaws are some sections on the instrumental sections on some songs...like the ragtime piano thing on Endless Sacrifice, the endless instrumental incoherent section on This Dying Soul, and some of the instrumental parts on In the name of God. I believe if those sections on ToT were trimmed and/or made more coherent, the album would have been perfect. I love the heavyness of ToT, balls to the wall, non-stop riffing...but those instrumental parts just feel wrong and out of place, they drag, and are just awfully distracting.

I was just listening to Six Degrees. Man that was a very special album. Everything was so well placed and from the heart. Definitely their best work IMO.

[Sebastián Pratesi]

Well, this is a fan forum. It would be a little odd if we were ranking every album a 4.3/10 like Pitchfork.

You should check out the main fan forum about Morrissey. They complain about every new song/album he releases, and they rate them as garbage not on the level of The Smiths or Vauxhall & I.

[PixelDream]

I haven't read the OP's dissection, but I basically agree with this statement. It was the last great album, the ones afterwards still have genius in them but are just 'very good' in my book.