Dream Theater and Disability

[Frank]

Hey everyone, just a short thought and I'd like to see what other people think - no jokes about this the way the official discussion thread makes light of this, please.

The Astonishing is a marvelous piece of work, but I must say I feel put off by the portrayal of Daryus' deafness. It's nothing huge, but the way the website describes it:

The scream shatters the prince's eardrums causing irreversible nerve damage and rendering him hearing-less. He is now doomed to live inside of his own soundless prison with the rest of his lifetime left to lament in a barren wasteland of silence over his despicable actions.

The description of a life without hearing as a "prison . . . a barren wasteland of silence" to me seems an overly harsh condemning of actual people with hearing loss. In terms of the story, deafness is given as punishment for despicable actions, and later on, the rest of the characters take pity on him to help him face his "burden" and "help as he navigates the hardships of his new handicap" - classic examples of how pity in real life can be used to delineate people into a singular identity defined by their disability as opposed to their character. Along these lines, I think it is also notable that, after losing his hearing, Daryus no longer has any lines or real presence as a character. He nearly disappears, a prop on the stage to demonstrate the supposed power of forgiveness in other characters as they bask in a new world with music and sound.

To me, it seems like the album disgraces disability and regulates disabled people to a lesser image than those with more physical ability. In reality, though people can just as easily be empowered by their disability as they can feel defeated, and everybody has varying levels of "ability" in all mental, physical, and social aspects of life. In other words, the album sticks with an outdated conception of disability and doesn't embrace a more progressive social view of disability. To me, this takes Dream Theater down from their relatively progressive and laudable conception of mental disability in 6DOIT to a more traditional view of physical disability in TA. (For people interested in cultural disability studies, I recommend the critical theorists Karen Nakamura, Margrit Shildrick, Bill Hughes, David Mitchell and Sharon Synder, among others. I would also direct people to this informative Wikipedia article to get a sense of a more progressive view of disability.)

I get that Petrucci, being a musician, felt compelled to write about what music means to him, but I just found it unfortunate that in the process my mental image of Dream Theater as "progressive" in more ways than one has just been knocked down a peg. I'd like to invite discussion on this - perhaps I am interpreting the lyrics and website description as overly condemning - but if you feel I'm overreacting, please give me some reasons to reconsider my line of thinking. As a disclaimer, I would also like to say that I'm half deaf - I can only hear in my left ear. While unilateral hearing loss comes with its own a set of unique and frustrating challenges, I have learned over my life to interpret my disability as a vital and even useful aspect of who I am that has served me and will continue to serve me well throughout my life.

[cramx3]

I think with regards to Daryus' character not doing anything after losing his hearing is more to the fact that his part of the story has ended, I mean, the story overall has practically ended at that point.  I do not understand what role you think he would play at the end?
 
His "punishment" isn't so much that he is deaf, it is more that he can never enjoy "the gift of music" the thing that everyone else is now able to enjoy after the story is over.  It's irony.

I really doubt JP had any intention of offending deaf people.

[TAC]

Hi Frank, I can understand what you are saying. Perhaps it is unintentionally insensitive. I wouldn't look too deep at it though. I think the deafness is meant more of a consequence of Daurys' actions, and that it was HIS choices which led to it. I really don't think actual deafness is being trivialized.

As a parent of a special needs child, I sometimes shudder when the term "retard" is used, even in jest and context. So I do understand your antennae being up. But seriously, I wouldn't let it stand in the way of how you feel about the album or DT.

His "punishment" isn't so much that he is deaf, it is more that he can never enjoy "the gift of music" the thing that everyone else is now able to enjoy after the story is over.  It's irony.

Yeah, I agree.

[bosk1]

I wouldn't look too deep at it though. I think the deafness is meant more of a consequence of Daurys' actions, and that it was HIS choices which led to it. I really don't think actual deafness is being trivialized.

^Exactly that.  Disability of any type is not the subject of the story.  The story is about the power of music.  In the context of the story, the ultimate "capital punishment" is for the villain to be deprived of the ability to enjoy that ultimate gift of music.  That's all it is.  It is not meant to be a commentary one way or the other on deafness or any other disability or limitation.  I think you are unintentionally doing yourself, the band, and the music a disservice if you read more into it than that.

[ariich]

Very interesting points Frank, and I agree something that shouldn't be made light of.

I would agree with what TAC and cramx said. Particularly that in this fictional future, music is the thing that brings everyone together and makes life good, so deafness makes that impossible. It's obviously completely simplistic, but that's the context within which the story takes place.

I agree that it was probably pretty insensitive, but I am very confident that this was purely accidental. I don't believe JP would ever suggest that deafness in and of itself is a burden or punishment in the real world.

[Frank]

Thanks for all the thoughts so far, everybody!

I think with regards to Daryus' character not doing anything after losing his hearing is more to the fact that his part of the story has ended, I mean, the story overall has practically ended at that point.  I do not understand what role you think he would play at the end?

At that point, there are still a handful a songs left on the album in which even a dead character gets a few lines. A simple line or two of Daryus expressing repentance for his actions and relief that he has been accepted and forgiven within his family would also bring a nice closure to his personal arc, I think - similar to how Lord Nafaryas is given plenty of time to repent.

I think the deafness is meant more of a consequence of Daurys' actions, and that it was HIS choices which led to it. I really don't think actual deafness is being trivialized.

Thanks for the warm words, TAC! Perhaps - I find this point to be more up to interpretation either way, so I'm not as sure of this particular point as you and Bosk are. Daryus did create the situation that led to Gabriel's scream, but it still feels like it's the STORY'S punishment of Daryus, rather than something Gabriel intentionally does to punish him. (Maybe that's the point, though.) But, perhaps to the contrary, Gabriel covers Xanders' ears, seemingly to protect him, and Faythe is saved from deafness by the random chance of her wearing earphones. I guess Gabriel must have particularly strong eardrums for him to withstand his own scream, but I'll let that go. Like I said, this is more murky for me either way. I see where you're coming from, though.

In the context of the story, the ultimate "capital punishment" is for the villain to be deprived of the ability to enjoy that ultimate gift of music.  That's all it is.  It is not meant to be a commentary one way or the other on deafness or any other disability or limitation.  I think you are unintentionally doing yourself, the band, and the music a disservice if you read more into it than that.

Fair enough on bringing this back to the context of the story. I think this is an interesting point and I agree with it. What set me off was the way the writing on the TA website describes the situation, but if I assume the writer is an unnamed scribe within the world itself and not a voice/vision closer to the real-life person who wrote that (probably JP), it becomes more benign indeed. Still, perhaps it would be cool or interesting if the story itself highlighted other ways of expressing creativity that are not music. I know the site descriptions briefly mention there are other modes of creativity, but wouldn't it be interesting if after repentance Daryus becomes, say, a painter? Or if not Daryus, whose actions are rightly condemned and who may have to live a humble life with no role in human creativity and/or expression, maybe somebody else.

Unless the album wants to create a world in which only music has power and can be considered a gift. That's fine, but perhaps a little limiting when I think the DT guys would agree that part of the beauty of music lies in its ability to portray human expression and feeling in a way that language cannot - and there are other avenues to do this besides music.

I don't believe JP would ever suggest that deafness in and of itself is a burden or punishment in the real world.

Of course, and my apologies if I made it sound like that. JP and DT are people and concepts I respect beyond words. I also thank you for your point reiterating other posters' points of view!

My view has already been changed a bit. I knew posting this was a good idea. :

[pcs90]

Honestly I think you're thinking too hard about this.

I am blind, other than light perception and blurry shadows. If, instead of losing his hearing, Daryus lost his vision as his punishment, I wouldn't have given it a second thought (unless it just didn't make sense within the context of whatever story it was). I mean, everyone is celebrating the new world of music and he doesn't get to hear any of it...other than him being killed I don't know how else that could be done. In fact, I wonder if "hearing-less" was a deliberate choice of wording there specifically intended to avoid this discussion. I doubt JP wanted to come across as making fun of or looking down on people with any disability but had to communicate his point across somehow, so maybe he thought that wording would work a little better.

As far as the ending, I don't see where it says the other characters "take pity" on him in a bad sense. They're going to help him and give him more attention, which is what he lacked in the first place. If he could hear for his entire life and all of a sudden went deaf, obviously he would need help to adapt to that situation. If he had been deaf his entire life and the characters were still doing that unnecessarily, then yes I could totally see what you mean, but that's not what happened (well, we don't know what happens after the story ends, but you see my point).

[BlobVanDam]

I view it in context of the fantasy land where Gabriel's music was literally magic and can heal the dying, and had the power to change their entire society. In that regard, not being able to hear music in this new world of musical "enlightenment", and being excluded from that musical discovery with everyone else in the land, is considered a terrible fate.
I think it's played up only to exaggerate a point within the story, and not make a statement in real life. After all, the entire concept of the album is based around music.

[WheyWaffles]

I get that Petrucci, being a musician, felt compelled to write about what music means to him, but I just found it unfortunate that in the process my mental image of Dream Theater as "progressive" in more ways than one has just been knocked down a peg.

Not to derail the conversation too much, but I've never been under the impression that Dream Theater is a progressive band in ways beyond music.  The political image of a band is generally determined by their lyrics, and while JLB and MM might be liberal-minded, JM has quoted Ayn Rand and professed love for her embarrassing ramblings, and I've heard JP is a libertarian--something his lyrics don't contradict.  There's always hope, though--Peart outgrew his Rand phase, and given JM doesn't talk much, it's possible he has by now as well.

This is just what I've inferred over many years.  Of course, I'd love to find out I'm wrong, but the band is good at not being controversial or divisive so it's difficult to prove one way or the other.  Petrucci isn't exactly Dave Mustaine.

[Darkstarshades]

Voices and SDOIT offend me.
But they kick so much ass that I quickly forgive them.
Then I remember I don't have any metal issues, and get happy. I quickly get depressed and... what... okay I'll stop... Yeah... forgive me... dark master.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Voices and SDOIT offend me.
But they kick so much ass that I quickly forgive them.
Then I remember I don't have any metal issues, and get happy. I quickly get depressed and... what... okay I'll stop... Yeah... forgive me... dark master.

In The Name Of God offends me because I'm actually Jesus.

[Frank]

Thanks again for the responses! As a general comment on the opinion that I'm overthinking this and that I should only confine my thinking to the world within the story, I understand that point of view, but I'm also interested in how stories create and interact with social behavior and opinions in the real world. I made this topic not because I was offended but because I was confused as the treatment of disability in TA was, in my perception, noticeably different from the treatment of disability in 6DOIT, and I was curious to see what other people thought about this. There are plenty of counterarguments to my original line of thinking, some of which I have accepted. Sure, from a limited point of view within the story, I'm overthinking this, and Daryus' punishment is perfectly fitting and ironic, but I'm also invested in how music and stories form and shape real people's perceptions and influence their future actions. Much like how JP was influenced by some of his favorite media in creating TA, so too might a future DT fan in a decade be influenced by the type of thought processes elaborated in The Astonishing. (Of course, anybody who's actually on the website reading this stuff is probably not a casual fan, but still...) Point being, I'm interested in more than just the music and story internally, regardless of whatever intentions there may or may not have been.

n fact, I wonder if "hearing-less" was a deliberate choice of wording there specifically intended to avoid this discussion. I doubt JP wanted to come across as making fun of or looking down on people with any disability but had to communicate his point across somehow, so maybe he thought that wording would work a little better.

I thought about "hearing-less" as well. It could be that, or it could be a fun play on words to highlight the drama of the moment, or it could be a fun play on words because the particular writing style surrounding TA is deliberately not a conversational or prosaic style you or I would adopt in real life. And I'd like to clarify that I'm not accusing JP as making fun of anything - I started this topic to comment on inherent and unchallenged assumptions about disability held within people and potentially the story.

As far as the ending, I don't see where it says the other characters "take pity" on him in a bad sense. They're going to help him and give him more attention, which is what he lacked in the first place. If he could hear for his entire life and all of a sudden went deaf, obviously he would need help to adapt to that situation. If he had been deaf his entire life and the characters were still doing that unnecessarily, then yes I could totally see what you mean, but that's not what happened (well, we don't know what happens after the story ends, but you see my point).

It doesn't say they explicitly "take pity," but their actions and words, both in the website descriptions and lyrics, focus primarily on tending to and caring for Daryus in light of his hearing-less-ness. This is fine, and I understand a person suddenly rendered without hearing needs special care. That's not the issue. The potential problem arises when that's what his primary function is as a character from that point on. This is potentially similar to how many male writers unconsciously write multi-faceted male characters and more flat female characters. Daryus from that point on serves a plot point to deepen the development of other characters who are not himself, and becomes a passive figure. I brought this up before, but the other "villain" gets a significant amount of development during this time, so I think it's hard to say that Daryus' story is done when he too might have been included in that development. Of course, you could argue it'd be cramming in too much if Daryus is also developed during this point, which is fine, and then it's just up to individual tastes in narrative styles.

I view it in context of the fantasy land where Gabriel's music was literally magic and can heal the dying, and had the power to change their entire society. In that regard, not being able to hear music in this new world of musical "enlightenment", and being excluded from that musical discovery with everyone else in the land, is considered a terrible fate.

Right. I totally get that, and that's cool.

Not to derail the conversation too much, but I've never been under the impression that Dream Theater is a progressive band in ways beyond music.  The political image of a band is generally determined by their lyrics, and while JLB and MM might be liberal-minded, JM has quoted Ayn Rand and professed love for her embarrassing ramblings, and I've heard JP is a libertarian--something his lyrics don't contradict.  There's always hope, though--Peart outgrew his Rand phase, and given JM doesn't talk much, it's possible he has by now as well.

Yeah. I was being somewhat polite, to be honest, and I wouldn't put that line in if I were to write the post again. I was giving them credit for 6DOIT and even including alternate points of view in songs like The Great Debate. Compared to plenty of other musicians I like, though, the lyrical content of DT songs still tends to be more progressively-inclined, but that's just a question of relativity.

Voices and SDOIT offend me.

Interesting. I'd love to hear why this is.

[bosk1]

Daryus from that point on serves a plot point to deepen the development of other characters who are not himself, and becomes a passive figure.

I'm not sure I agree with that, but even if it were true, why is that a problem?  Different characters in the story receive different levels of treatment, not because their real-life characteristics or more or less desireable, but simply because the story is meant to focus more on the character arcs of a small number of characters, as is true in any work of fiction.  The story serves to primarily portray the transformation of Gabriel, Faythe, and Daryus, with the other characters playing supporting roles.  If all eight major characters and every minor character that is mentioned were suddenly all given equal attention and status within the story, the story would seem jumbled, unfocused, and incoherent.  By not giving the nameless townsperson a complete character arc and more significant role, JP is not somehow saying that the common man is unimportant.  It is just that, again, the other characters in the story are vehicles for telling the story. 

[Sycsa]

no jokes about this the way the official discussion thread makes light of this, please.

Time to make DTF a "safe space?"

[Stadler]

There's always hope, though--

Hope for what?  That they change their thinking to be more like you?  I bristle at that, and I bristle at the condemnation of the "story" for including something that one person now finds "objectionable".   

I have two thoughts as a result:

The band has their frame of reference, and it is what it is.  Not "better" or "worse" or to be "changed".  It is dangerous to ascribe our motivations, our feelings and our points of view to others.

The story is what the story is; it can easily be interpreted in two different ways, like much of what happens in the world generally circa 2016.  I'm not nearly as deep into the story as most of you, but my reading of that is that the "speaker" is a narrator, telling that which is going on from the point of view of the participants, but is not a "part" of the story in a way that, say, Scout is in 'To Kill A Mockingbird".  So the "prison" is just as likely an expression made from the point of view of Daryus himself, and a statement on HIS views - as someone who had this ability and then lost it - as anything else.  "Sadder still to watch it die than never to have known it..."

[Frank]

no jokes about this the way the official discussion thread makes light of this, please.

Time to make DTF a "safe space?"

DTF is a fun place, and people like to joke a lot. That's great, but I wanted to seriously discuss this in this instance. Jokes such as the deaf-related image memes posted in that topic would impede upon that. That's all.

Also, Stadler, I'm not condemning anything. I also never once said I objected to anything, either.

I was hoping not to invite these reactions. That's unfortunate.

[bosk1]

It's just the type of thread that is not typical, so it is bound to have some posts that push some buttons.  Overall, I think the discussion has been pretty good.

[Frank]

Oops, missed your post up there, Bosk. Absolutely, and how we receive that boils down to different preferences in how we like our narratives to unfold. Me, personally, my favorite movie is 10 hours long, so the more in-depth character development, the better for me! But you're absolutely right. There's no imperative reason why Daryus should or should not receive as much development as Nafaryas. It's just interesting to think what development or lack thereof might lead different people to draw differing conclusions or feelings.

[Frank]

Also, to clarify, Daryus' passivity arguably might be a problem because the deprivation of marginalized voices within a particular culture is a historical and often unchallenged precedent that further lays the ground for new works of art to continue the cycle of passivity, impeding progressive change within society. (See my point on female characters often deprived of development by male authors, for instance.) I say "arguably might be a problem" because it depends on one's value system and how much one is willing to tolerate thinking about the story beyond its own realm.

Edit: Sorry for the double post. Time to get off the Internet for a bit.

[Jinx]

I don't think that much about it. I just came for the music and the story. Daryus killed a man and tried to kill another. His ironic comeuppance was to live life without the gift of music. I don't think we need to say much more.

[rumborak]

I try to not think about that whole thing actually. "Character turns deaf from scream, other is saved because of headphones" does not help my enjoyment of the album.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

they were noise-canceling

[WheyWaffles]

There's always hope, though--

Hope for what?  That they change their thinking to be more like you?

Yes.

[Progmetty]

I am blind, other than light perception and blurry shadows.

Would it be a dick question to ask how you type replies? Does someone help you or do you use a voice transcribing software of some sort? Just curious.

[rab7]

I am blind, other than light perception and blurry shadows.

Would it be a dick question to ask how you type replies? Does someone help you or do you use a voice transcribing software of some sort? Just curious.

Thank you for asking this. I was curious too, but didn't want to come across as rude.

[pcs90]

I am blind, other than light perception and blurry shadows.

Would it be a dick question to ask how you type replies? Does someone help you or do you use a voice transcribing software of some sort? Just curious.

Not a dick question, I joke about it often as it is so you won't offend me with questions. I just use a program that reads the text on the screen. In fact most cell phones come with something like that now (I know the newer iPhones do). So to type a reply back I'm just typing on a normal keyboard. Since I've memorized where everything is it's not like I need it marked with something tactile -- in fact I type faster than most people who can see...

[bosk1]

That is really cool.  Does it translate emoticons as anything?  I am curious whether it just says there is some unidentified picture, or whether it gives you the code, or something else.  For example, I will include three emoticons below:

[pcs90]

That is really cool.  Does it translate emoticons as anything?  I am curious whether it just says there is some unidentified picture, or whether it gives you the code, or something else.  For example, I will include three emoticons below:

It will just say there's a "graphic" and then read the code, so for example on it will read "lol". For since that is a standard one, on some websites it says what it actually is, and sometimes it just shows me the code, but either way I know what it's supposed to be.

[Progmetty]

hol t shit youre food man, I cant tpyte antthing wihotu lookinf ar rhw kwycoaes.
^ this is "holy shit you're good man, I can't type anything without looking at the keyboard."
Amazing bro, you're also maintaining excellent punctuation! but I can't begin to imagine how tiresome it is to keep track of who posted what and quote pyramids. And threads! just finding out which threads are at the top or what has new replies, going in and out of them, etc.
When there's a will there's a way indeed, hats off to you sir.

[pcs90]

hol t shit youre food man, I cant tpyte antthing wihotu lookinf ar rhw kwycoaes.
^ this is "holy shit you're good man, I can't type anything without looking at the keyboard."
Amazing bro, you're also maintaining excellent punctuation! but I can't begin to imagine how tiresome it is to keep track of who posted what and quote pyramids. And threads! just finding out which threads are at the top or what has new replies, going in and out of them, etc.
When there's a will there's a way indeed, hats off to you sir.

Oh it's not too bad really! There are shortcut key combinations that the program will recognize so I can scroll around pages much faster. As an example I can press a key and it will move me to the next quoted comment, so on those huge chains of quotes I can easily scroll through them to the newest response. Since each thread with new replies has a link to jump directly to those, I just click that.
And yeah, but you're used to looking at the keyboard. I have a friend who sees even less than me (no shadows at all) and he plays classical piano. There's always a way!

[Darkstarshades]

Well, it all depends on your point of view

I know a guy with asperger that feels identified and loves "Solitary Shell" (the entire 6DOIT). Yet I know there is at least one guy with asperger too around the internet that actively dislikes it.

[cramx3]

PCS, that is simply amazing.  You type better without vision than most who can see what they are typing.  Astonishing. 

[bosk1]

Since the codes for a lot of the emoticons are silly inside forum jokes from years ago that will not seem like they have anything to do with the emoticon in question, it must seem strange getting some random code and having no idea what the picture is. 

For example, is a cup of coffee with a sleep deprived-looking smiley.  VFS was an old forum member who really needed to have her coffee before she could function.

[pcs90]

Since the codes for a lot of the emoticons are silly inside forum jokes from years ago that will not seem like they have anything to do with the emoticon in question, it must seem strange getting some random code and having no idea what the picture is. 

For example, is a cup of coffee with a sleep deprived-looking smiley.  VFS was an old forum member who really needed to have her coffee before she could function.

Yeah, I usually don't pay much attention to the forum-specific ones because the name doesn't really give it away. It'd definitely get confusing if I put more thought into those! haha

[Stadler]

There's always hope, though--

Hope for what?  That they change their thinking to be more like you?

Yes.

Wow.     That's unfortunate.