The Astonishing Recurring Motifs

[Calvin6s]

I made two videos about recurring themes in The Astonishing for the French DT fan club

Really great work by adn and Sebastian.  The videos really help seal the deal (especially for those of us that have grown older and think about doing something like this, but deep down know we will never get around to it)

[Calvin6s]

However, as you say, in some cases it's a common progression (there are a lot of those, mostly involving just 2 chords), so it may not be intentional, and I'm imagining stuff. I guess only John and Jordan can confirm/deny. It would be cool to have a chat with them!

I'd imagine they are all intentional simply because that's kind of what opera/broadway does.  So not only was that their goal, but they were completely in that mindset.  If they were just writing random songs and parts of the same muse visited them twice, they may not notice.  I'd imagine they were hyper-aware of themes during the entire writing process like they've never been before.

[SebastianPratesi]

Also, I always thought what is being called "Gabriel's Theme" here was "Astonishing Theme", since it ends the album and isn't really limited to Gabriel. I had always assumed Gabriel's theme was The Answer if anything. Maybe I'm wrong though...

I do agree with you though, that it should be called the Astonishing Theme.

In my head it's also 'Astonishing theme', and I think it's the natural thing to call it (for the same reasons you mentioned). However, when naming the bits in "Dystopian Overture", I found there was nothing for Gabriel, and he is one of the 2 main characters, so I thought - if Heaven Cove has a theme...

Earlier, a couple of members referred to the "Act of Faythe" melody as the 'Main theme' in the album, since it re-appears constantly (more than any of the others, I believe). That one could also be considered the 'Astonishing theme'.

By naming it 'Gabriel's theme', I thought there wouldn't be confusion; although I get your point about "The Answer". So it might be a good idea to rename it... later, with some more free time.

[pcs90]

In my head it's also 'Astonishing theme', and I think it's the natural thing to call it (for the same reasons you mentioned). However, when naming the bits in "Dystopian Overture", I found there was nothing for Gabriel, and he is one of the 2 main characters, so I thought - if Heaven Cove has a theme...

Earlier, a couple of members referred to the "Act of Faythe" melody as the 'Main theme' in the album, since it re-appears constantly (more than any of the others, I believe). That one could also be considered the 'Astonishing theme'.

By naming it 'Gabriel's theme', I thought there wouldn't be confusion; although I get your point about "The Answer". So it might be a good idea to rename it... later, with some more free time.

I've also seen the melody in Act of Faythe called "the love theme." If you think about it, that theme is not restricted to Faythe. Nafaryus and Gabriel sing it as well (Lord Nafaryus and The Road to Revolution respectively) so it's hard to know what it really should be called. Although, every time that theme comes up, Faythe is involved in some way (for example, Nafaryus mentions her name). And then we have the "chorus" of A New Beginning that re-appears in Dystopian Overture. That never really got an accepted name anywhere else as far as I know. I wonder if it would be better, instead of trying to name the themes, to just identify the primary song where each is used?
I'm probably just over-thinking it.

[adn]

I just watched your second video. I noticed, at 3:05, the recurring motif 8 - between "2285" and "The Road To Revolution". Maybe you meant "Lord Nafaryus"? Not a big deal, though.

Also: I remember reading about your work on Scenes From A Memory a couple of years ago. Is it still available somewhere? I never studied that album, so it would be a really interesting read for me. Thanks!

My mistake Seb, it is :
2285 Entr’Acte (0’59) = Three Days (0’47) (in my video at 3'05)
and
2285 Entr’Acte  (1’54) = The Road To Revolution (3’05) (in my video at 1'22)

And, about SFAM, https://flabonde.free.fr/DTSFAM.htm  if you appreciate old html pages

[RoeDent]

Fantastic work with the videos, adn!

Unless they're really obvious, I find it hard to spot recurring motifs, so these guides are really helpful. And it's so cool what DT have done with this idea of recurring themes.

[SebastianPratesi]

And, about SFAM, https://flabonde.free.fr/DTSFAM.htm  if you appreciate old html pages

Thanks, man, I'll check it out today.
Also, wanted to tell I liked your Queen medleys on YouTube.

I've also seen the melody in Act of Faythe called "the love theme." If you think about it, that theme is not restricted to Faythe. Nafaryus and Gabriel sing it as well (Lord Nafaryus and The Road to Revolution respectively) so it's hard to know what it really should be called. Although, every time that theme comes up, Faythe is involved in some way (for example, Nafaryus mentions her name). And then we have the "chorus" of A New Beginning that re-appears in Dystopian Overture. That never really got an accepted name anywhere else as far as I know. I wonder if it would be better, instead of trying to name the themes, to just identify the primary song where each is used?
I'm probably just over-thinking it.

Well, it might be a good idea. 'The Love Theme' mainly appears in "Act Of Faythe", and that's why I called it "Faythe's Theme". The other one you mention: I used the word 'playful' because that's how it sounds to me, but it could be 'Beginning motif' or something.

[SebastianPratesi]

I have one candidate for an inverted motif, and it's the keyboard "solo" in The Walking Shadow. It reminds me of the Sword Fight motif in a way.

EDIT: Wait a minute... I have another one. A Better Life vs. The X Aspect.

I've been trying to spot the inverted motifs in those pairs of songs.

The keyboard solo vs. the swordfight: they share the meters (three bars of 4/4 + one of 7/8), so that's a start I guess. I slowed the video speed on YouTube, and tried to figure out what are the notes by the keys (on "Shadow") and strings (on "Path"), but they still sound fast to me, so I'll have to try a little harder. However, you might be onto something.

"A better life" vs. "The X Aspect": this one I have to try a little harder as well. "The X Aspect" only has one vocal melody (the one I called 'Arhys' theme', when he sings 'Evangeline, I swore to you...') so I guess that's the motif you consider, right? I wrote down a partiture with the vocal melody, so I'll see what it sounds like when inverted. Would you care to point out in what part of "A Better Life" it's inverted?

Thanks!

[Luoto]

"A better life" vs. "The X Aspect": this one I have to try a little harder as well. "The X Aspect" only has one vocal melody (the one I called 'Arhys' theme', when he sings 'Evangeline, I swore to you...') so I guess that's the motif you consider, right? I wrote down a partiture with the vocal melody, so I'll see what it sounds like when inverted. Would you care to point out in what part of "A Better Life" it's inverted?

I was mostly brainstorming in that post, but I have interest in these two particular tracks because of the storyline connection. It could just be as subtle as "Peacefully, she slipped away" vs. "Evangeline, I swore to you"

[SebastianPratesi]

I was mostly brainstorming in that post, but I have interest in these two particular tracks because of the storyline connection. It could just be as subtle as "Peacefully, she slipped away" vs. "Evangeline, I swore to you"

I just listened to both tracks a lot, writing down notes/chords, with my guitar in hand to follow the melodies, and I think I came up with some stuff:

I can't understand how I've missed it for over 2 weeks, but both songs endings' are basically the same: they have a similar sound, and they both end with the chords Bb - Am - D. Plus, the last three syllables sung by Arhys are C-D-D ("til-it's-won" and "sa-cri-fice"). So I may add it to the list, as 'Better Life motif' or something. (the chord progressions in the verses are based around I-VI, so there are also some similarities there).

Furthermore, towards the ending, I think "A Better Life" references a bit of "Heaven's Cove". At 4:13 in "A Better Life" you can hear the strings play A-B-C#-E, and then D-E-F#-A at 4:19. Those sequences of notes, when transposed to B, appear at "Heaven's Cove" (by guitar at 0:53, and soprano at 1:32). They also appear in "Dystopian Overture" at 1:22. That 4-note sequence appears in all cases in the context of a minor chord, but the sequence (I-II-III#-V) makes the chord sound major . So I'd dare to say it's an intentional reference to the 'Heaven's Cove' theme.

Lastly, at 3:38 I think "A Better Life" forshadows a short moment in "Lord Nafaryus". You hear the guitar play Bb-G#-F-E right before Arhys sings "Evangeline". Something really similar happens in "Lord Nafaryus" at 0:24 and throughout. Although, in this case I'm not sure how much of a recurring motif this last one is, since I've heard this sort of sequence in many other songs (by the band, and by others).

The notes James sings at the moment in "A Better Life" I think are the same as "to meet the savior" in the other song, so there's also that.

[Enigmachine]

When Heaven's Cove references it's part in Dystopian Overture, my god is that epic. I would agree that Faythe's Theme / Love Theme is the main theme of the album, though the BCYHM theme is a close contender.

[Luoto]

I just listened to both tracks a lot, writing down notes/chords, with my guitar in hand to follow the melodies, and I think I came up with some stuff:

Most of that is probably reading too much into things, but the similarity of song endings is probably legit. The rest I'd put under songwriters' preferences of coming up with things in a certain way.

[adn]

you can hear the strings play A-B-C#-E, and then D-E-F#-A at 4:19. Those sequences of notes, when transposed to B, appear at "Heaven's Cove" (by guitar at 0:53, and soprano at 1:32).

play it with a minor third and you have the intro of "Moment of Betrayal"

[SebastianPratesi]

Most of that is probably reading too much into things, but the similarity of song endings is probably legit. The rest I'd put under songwriters' preferences of coming up with things in a certain way.

I agree with you, although the "Heaven's Cove" subtle reference I'm convinced about (it doesn't sound exactly like it, obviously). I hope one day we can have comments on the album's motifs directly by John/Jordan, in the form of an AMA or interview or video.

play it with a minor third and you have the intro of "Moment of Betrayal"

Yeah, I know. An earlier bit of "A Better Life" (at 4:07) are those same notes. I guess it's hard to be sure what is reference and what isn't. After you've recognized the obvious ones, you start seeing things which may not really be there (what Luoto said).

I added the "Heaven's Cove" bit to the list, though, for the sake of discussion.

Also: just read through your break-down of Scenes From A Memory. That's amazing, man! There are a bunch of references I hadn't noticed before (like the chord progression from "Lifting Shadows Off A Dream"). I also liked your mentions of Metallica's songs and 'Woman Gets Happier' . I'm tempted to do something similar with this new album. I'm not too attached to Scenes, since it was released before I even started actively listening to music; this one, however, is becoming one of my personal favourites.

[SebastianPratesi]

Just finished listening to Act 1, and found a couple more chord progressions, shared between "Three Days" & "A New Beginning":

• 'Evil progression' (at 0:28 in "3D") Cm-Db-G-Bbm (in the key of Cm)
  When transposed to Gm, it's the same progression that starts the guitar solo at 5:15 in "ANB".
• 'Baroque progression' (at 1:11 in "3D") Dm-G-C-Am (in the key of Am)
  When transposed to Em, it's the same progression that starts the baroque section at 2:18 in "ANB".

This second one I think is specially interesting. It could mean that Nafaryus also used to listen to baroque/classical music.

[Vandalism]

I think the Moment of Betrayal bass unison section is a sped up version of the intro to A Life Left Behind. Thoughts?

[SebastianPratesi]

I think the Moment of Betrayal bass unison section is a sped up version of the intro to A Life Left Behind. Thoughts?

They do sound similar! I didn't notice that one. I just slowed "Moment On Betrayal" on YouTube and compared those parts. I'm not sure, because in "A Life Left Behind", most notes have the same duration, whereas in "Moment On Betrayal" there are some pauses.

But, I'll try to learn both parts on the guitar tomorrow. You might be correct!

[Dublagent66]

Throughout most of the album it felt like I was listening to TSCO.  Oh wait...you meant recurring themes within the album itself.  So yeah, TSCO...

[Enigmachine]

Throughout most of the album it felt like I was listening to TSCO.  Oh wait...you meant recurring themes within the album itself.  So yeah, TSCO...

Ok, I can understand BCYHM and Begin Again sounding like TSCO (MAYBE Astonishing because of the BCYHM reprise and a similar triumphant nature to TSCO), but the other ballads? The Answer, WYTHC, AoF, ALLB, Chosen, TXA, Losing Faythe, Whispers on the Wind and HoaTV sound nothing like TSCO. Also, if we extend it to non-ballads (still most of the album btw, would fill 2 disks at over 80 mins)... well, no.

[pcs90]

Yeah, other than the BCYHM melody I fail to hear any similarities with TSCO...and even that is a stretch.

[Enigmachine]

Yeah, other than the BCYHM melody I fail to hear any similarities with TSCO...and even that is a stretch.

It's mainly the major key sharp-7-to-tonic resolution at the end of the melody. Even still, it's a very common thing so it doesn't hold weight for a comparison.

[genome]

How's this for an obscure find? The run at 1:59 in Dystopian Overture repeats in The Path That Divides at 3:55.

[MikeDavis67]

A Savior in the Square Instrumental Intro section -> Our New World

[Jinx]

4:00 - 4:08 during The Path That Divides is the riff for the earlier line by Nafaryus, "Why would I ever concede to listen to this fool how can you be so naive?" From A New Beginning.

EDIT: Trying to find the significance. I assume it's Arhys asking the question to himself.

[pcs90]

Has anyone slowed down the NOMAC tracks to see if there are any hidden melodies within the runs? 

[SebastianPratesi]

Has anyone slowed down the NOMAC tracks to see if there are any hidden melodies within the runs? 

I don't know about melodies, but in "Machine Chatter", the meters are three bars of 4/4 + one of 7/8, just like the sword-fight section right before, in "The Path That Divides".

I have to listen to the NOMAC tracks a bit more, but there might be something there.

[Luoto]

Do the Savior motif and The Answer motif share the same chord progression? A Savior in the Square, When Your Time Has Come and Our New World are certainly in the same key.

Act of Faythe also seems to have a descending progression during Faythe's theme, similar to what Sebastian titled Gabriel's theme.

[SebastianPratesi]

Do the Savior motif and The Answer motif share the same chord progression? A Savior in the Square, When Your Time Has Come and Our New World are certainly in the same key.

Act of Faythe also seems to have a descending progression during Faythe's theme, similar to what you've titled Gabriel's theme.

About the chord progressions in the intros of "Savior" and "Answer": I don't think they are the same. This is what I hear (the vertical lines separate bars):

• "Answer": I | IV - V | I - IV | V - VI | I | IV - V | I | IV - V
  More emphasis on the IV degree, and less on VI.
• "Savior": I | I - V | I | I - V | VI | VI - V | I | I - V | IV | II - V | I | I - V
  More emphasis on the VI degree, and less on IV.

About the common key: that's right! I like to think that it's Gabriel's favourite key (it sounds happy/uplifting to me, just like all those songs).

About "Act Of Faythe": do you mean when James sings "Hope still survives"? That's the only 'descending' bit I remember. I like to think that Faythe's and Gabriel's theme (and even the "Chosen" melody) sound similar because they were written that way on purpose, so that later on "Astonishing" they could be played together (representing the newly formed couple, maybe?). So it's natural to find similarities among them.

[Luoto]

Yeah, seems I was wrong about Act of Faythe. What I was getting at with Savior and The Answer themes is they might be improvisations from the same jam, with the overall descending melody line (I-V correlation a lot of the time).

Also, check out the strings kicking in at 0:42 in The Path that Divides. WYTHC chorus progression in minor key?

[SebastianPratesi]

Yeah, probably. I feel the same way about the different melodies heard in Nafaryus' and Daryus' sections - they sound like they were written at the same time, to have a common feel.

Regarding the "Path" bit: I'm listening to both parts you mention, and there probably is a connection (after all there is the "WYTHC" by Gabriel's voice), but I'm not sure I follow you. The "WYTHC" chorus progression is Bm - A - G, but I hear 4 chords formed by the strings which form a different progression. Can you tell me what is it that you are hearing there? Or maybe you meant a different bit in "WYTHC"?

[Luoto]

Regarding the "Path" bit: I'm listening to both parts you mention, and there probably is a connection (after all there is the "WYTHC" by Gabriel's voice), but I'm not sure I follow you. The "WYTHC" chorus progression is Bm - A - G, but I hear 4 chords formed by the strings which form a different progression. Can you tell me what is it that you are hearing there? Or maybe you meant a different bit in "WYTHC"?

We most likely mean the same thing, but I'm listening by ear and you have an instrument to help

Alright then, is this when A Better Life has its moment of recurrence? The "chorus" at 2:01 sounds like it would fit, and in that case the section when vocals start (in TPTD) should be investigated because the verse stems from that progression. Arhys' conflict of interests would be addressed this way too.

EDIT: I'm listening to Act 2 as I write; the bass and guitar solo unison in MoB you were talking about is actually not a strict one-off. The progression is in the bridge before the second chorus There's also this subtle, ambient ooo-ooo before the Heaven's Cove theme that strongly reminds me of Machine Chatter

[SebastianPratesi]

Just to be on the same page: you mean the 2:01 chorus in "A Better Life", right? The chord progressions in the chorus of "WYTHC" and "Path" are indeed similar, although not exactly the same (they share the descending three chords, but their endings are different). So I guess we could consider it a re-ocurrence.

Regarding "the section when vocals start": you mean "Path" at 0:59, right? Well, I'm playing both melodies on guitar, and I kind of get your point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is: the "Path" verse melody sounds like the "ABL" chorus melody, which in turn shares the same progression as the "WYTHC" chorus, right?

I sort of see that, although I should sit and play those bits a little more.

[Luoto]

Just to be on the same page: you mean the 2:01 chorus in "A Better Life", right? The chord progressions in the chorus of "WYTHC" and "Path" are indeed similar, although not exactly the same (they share the descending three chords, but their endings are different). So I guess we could consider it a re-ocurrence.

Regarding "the section when vocals start": you mean "Path" at 0:59, right? Well, I'm playing both melodies on guitar, and I kind of get your point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is: the "Path" verse melody sounds like the "ABL" chorus melody, which in turn shares the same progression as the "WYTHC" chorus, right?

Yes. That section in ABL would add the fourth chord into the progression for strings. When the verse in "Path" comes in, the vocal melody starts over the strings progression and then makes similar feeling transitions as in ABL. This suggests there might be further correlation in chord progression until "as you're facing the path that divides". I'm not necessarily saying the ABL and WYTHC chorus progressions are intentionally linked though.

[SebastianPratesi]

Yes. That section in ABL would add the fourth chord into the progression for strings. When the verse in "Path" comes in, the vocal melody starts over the strings progression and then makes similar feeling transitions as in ABL. This suggests there might be further correlation in chord progression until "as you're facing the path that divides".

It took me a while, but I think I see your point about that section of "Path". That's some amazing analysis!

EDIT: I'm listening to Act 2 as I write; the bass and guitar solo unison in MoB you were talking about is actually not a strict one-off. The progression is in the bridge before the second chorus There's also this subtle, ambient ooo-ooo before the Heaven's Cove theme that strongly reminds me of Machine Chatter

About the unison: I guess you're right there as well! I went back to that song, and the melodies and mood are pretty much the same in both bits. I'm not sure about what 'progression' you mean, though - isn't the bridge just a big long B chord?

About "Machine Chatter": I didn't notice the "Heaven's Cove" influence, but it makes sense to me too. In fact the first two notes in "Chatter" at 0:12 are the same ones that start the string melody you mention in "Path" at 0:42. Both "Cove" and "Path" feature the sound of NOMACs at their beginnings, so maybe the references to the two songs are intentional. Whatsmore, the meters in "Chatter" are three bars of 4/4 + one of 7/8, just like the sword fight in "Path".

So, in my opinion, "Chatter" shows us the music that the NOMACs make at those exact moments in the night. I think we should listen much more closely to "Sojourn", "Dischord" and "Power Down", because they might reference their respective scenes too. I'll do that tomorrow and I'll post what I come up with.

[Luoto]

About "Machine Chatter": I didn't notice the "Heaven's Cove" influence, but it makes sense to me too.

Heaven's Cove @ 0:23
Machine Chatter @ 0:17