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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Gh101 on February 06, 2016, 12:53:40 PM
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A thread for all the musical similarities and small reprises in songs, here is what I noticed from Dystopian Overture and a couple of other songs to begin with:
Dystopian Overture - 0:21 -0:43 is very similar to Lord Nafaryus and the Nafaryus sections in A New Beginning.
Dystopian Overture: 0:44 - 1:00 is the second half of the X Aspect.
Dystopian Overture 1:13 - 1:45 uses the same arpeggios as Heaven Cove.
Dystopian Overture 2:26 -2:50 - main theme from Act of Faythe
Dystopian Overture 2:55 - 3:24 - same melody as Brother, Can You Hear Me?
Dystopian Overture 3:24 - 3:40 - Faythe sections in A New Beginning.
A Saviour in the Square introduction is the same chord sequence as Our New World.
When Your Time Has Come chorus is the Gabriel counter-melody in The Path That Divides
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Daryus has a mini-theme; the exchange with Arhys ("How dare you step inside my home?! / His life is in my hands! / You monster, leave my son alone! / You do know who I am") has a melody that occours also in A Life Left Behind, when he's instructed by Arabelle to follow Faythe.
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Daryus has a mini-theme; the exchange with Arhys ("How dare you step inside my home?! / His life is in my hands! / You monster, leave my son alone! / You do know who I am") has a melody that occours also in A Life Left Behind, when he's instructed by Arabelle to follow Faythe.
While this is true, I tend to think about Daryus theme as of the vocal melody on "Give up the Chosen One / And you will guarantee your son" and "Wealth and prosperity / Beyond what you have ever seen" on A Tempting Offer that reoccures later on The Path that Divides with "You dare defy your prince? / Well you just threw your life away" and "Two hungry warriors clash in the shadows of the night".
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The bagpipes section in The X Aspect corresponds to the main theme of Brother, Can You Hear Me.
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2:03 in The Walking Shadow = Faythe's theme.
Clever foreshadowing for who's walking around the corner.
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Dystopian Overture: 0:44 - 1:00 is the second half of the X Aspect.
And also the final section of A Better Life. It's basically Evangeline's theme.
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Dystopian Overture: 0:44 - 1:00 is the second half of the X Aspect.
And also the final section of A Better Life. It's basically Evangeline's theme.
Can you point out the time stamp for this in A Better Life?
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I was hoping a thread like this would show up. I love analyzing the themes and where they recur!
2285 Entr'acte has a few, looking both back and forward.
0:42 = B eginning of Lord Nafaryus
0:58 = Three Days (Brace yourself...)
1:14 = The Road to Revolution
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I was hoping a thread like this would show up. I love analyzing the themes and where they recur!
2285 Entr'acte has a few, looking both back and forward.
0:42 = B eginning of Lord Nafaryus
0:58 = Three Days (Brace yourself...)
1:14 = The Road to Revolution
The entire Entr'acte is a mishmash of aCT 1 themes. Before Naf theme kicks in, we have Faythe theme followed by The Answer. Near the end we have Chosen followed by How Dare You Step Inside My Home
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Anyone else notice the similarities between Faythe's and Nafaryus' music? N's sounds more evil, of course, but the motifs share connections.
I also think the A major section at the end of Dystopian Overture foreshadows the very end of the album. (Eternally...In harmony...)
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Dystopian Overture: 0:44 - 1:00 is the second half of the X Aspect.
And also the final section of A Better Life. It's basically Evangeline's theme.
Can you point out the time stamp for this in A Better Life?
You're right, the melody is different, only the lyrics and structural form (as it were) are similar.
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I also think the A major section at the end of Dystopian Overture foreshadows the very end of the album. (Eternally...In harmony...)
Definitely. The same way 6doit Overture ends with Journey to find the answers inside our elusive mind
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The Answer, Begin Again and the opening of When your time has come all share the same melody (this also appears in the instrumentals too obviously). :tup
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There's this theme that seems to be linked to Daryus that appears a few times.
Dystopian Ouverture-3:46 to 3:58
A Tempting Offer-0:00 to 1:18 / 3:19 to 3:32
The Path That Divides-4:43 to the end
It might appear at other places, but those were the ones I was able to identify.
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The bagpipes section in The X Aspect corresponds to the main theme of Brother, Can You Hear Me.
This also has an interesting ending. A Picardy third is where a section (or even a full piece) is entirely in a minor key, but the last chord is the parallel major key. For example, nearly all of Pink Floyd's Shine On You Crazy Diamond is in G minor, including the closing funeral march, but the final held chord is actually G major.
This bagpipe solo does the opposite. It's mostly in D major (with a D drone in the bass, as is standard with bagpipes), but the choir comes in on the last bagpipe note with a D minor chord.
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I didn't check which ones of these have already been mentioned, these are my own notes I've gathered while listening to this album
Dystopian Overture 0:44 --> The X Aspect
Dystopian Overture 2:57 --> Brother, Can You Hear Me?
Dystopian Overture 3:25 --> A New Beginning
Dystopian Overture 4:00 --> Astonishing
Act of Faythe 3:57 --> A Savior in the Square
Brother, Can You Hear Me? 3:05 --> The Road to Revolution
Ravenskill 4:12 --> When Your Time Has Come
The X Aspect 3:29 --> Brother, Can You Hear Me?
2285 Entr’acte 0:43 --> Lord Nafaryus
2285 Entr’acte 0:58 --> Three Days
2285 Entr’acte 1:15 --> The Road to Revolution
Losing Faythe 0:19 --> Chosen
Astonishing 1:23-->, 4:31 --> Brother, Can You Hear Me?
Astonishing 2:13 --> The Answer
Astonishing 3:32 --> The Road to Revolution
Main Theme:
Dystopian Overture 2:28 -->
Lord Nafaryus 2:23 -->
A Savior in the Square 3:43 -->
Act of Faythe 1:06 -->
The Road to Revolution 1:49 -->
Astonishing 2:44 -->
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The "Brother Can You Hear Me" theme makes its appearance quite frequently throughout the album, and is probably my favorite. Once you hear it in Bagpipe solo form, it's just... Simply the best.
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That's a thought. Is there a single "main theme" per se? Because to me, the BCYHM theme and Faythe's theme are both as prominent in the work as each other.
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Anyone else notice the similarities between Faythe's and Nafaryus' music? N's sounds more evil, of course, but the motifs share connections.
Faythe's theme appears in fact for the first time in Lord Nafaryus, when he describes his family. (Well, aside from the Overture)
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That's a thought. Is there a single "main theme" per se? Because to me, the BCYHM theme and Faythe's theme are both as prominent in the work as each other.
Well, I just called it main theme because even though BCHYM theme appears often it's also its own song
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One thing I just realized: while being nothing alike, A Better Life and Lord Nafaryus have the same structure, in this sense:
- They both introduce two of the main characters
- They reflect their attitude and thoughts so that you get to "know them"
- They slow down while they talk about their dear ones (Evangeline for Arhys, his family for Nafaryus, with Faythe's theme appearing)
Don't know how much of this was intentional or not...
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A Better Life doesn't introduce Arhys as such, as he first appears in TGOM, but I know what you mean in that it's the song where we get to know him.
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I especially like in A New Beginning the badass Nafaryus reprise, and the equally badass Gift Of Music reprise at the start of the instrumental section.
But my favorite reprise has to be either bagpipes BCYHM or the "lost in this moment" part of Ravenskill. That or the A Savior In The Square intro at the end of Our New World.
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I especially like in A New Beginning the badass Nafaryus reprise, and the equally badass Gift Of Music reprise at the start of the instrumental
What part of TGOM is reprised? I've never noticed
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No Motifs were used, just Kronos.
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The bagpipes section in The X Aspect corresponds to the main theme of Brother, Can You Hear Me.
This also has an interesting ending. A Picardy third is where a section (or even a full piece) is entirely in a minor key, but the last chord is the parallel major key. For example, nearly all of Pink Floyd's Shine On You Crazy Diamond is in G minor, including the closing funeral march, but the final held chord is actually G major.
This bagpipe solo does the opposite. It's mostly in D major (with a D drone in the bass, as is standard with bagpipes), but the choir comes in on the last bagpipe note with a D minor chord.
Good call, RD! It's a great ending, and I love that the choir starts the final chord accentuating the major, then gradually shifting and ending on the minor. This album has so many beautiful little nuances.
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A great video made by ADN (the guy who had already done the same analysis for SFAM : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAqKbXqpLvo ) which is an analysis of Dystopian Overture's developed themes :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eFoDUAMD4mQ
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A great video made by ADN (the guy who had already done the same analysis for SFAM : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAqKbXqpLvo ) which is an analysis of Dystopian Overture's developed themes :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eFoDUAMD4mQ
Great Vid.. well done :tup
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I especially like in A New Beginning the badass Nafaryus reprise, and the equally badass Gift Of Music reprise at the start of the instrumental
What part of TGOM is reprised? I've never noticed
It's very reminiscent of the instrumental section.
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Wonderful video, that. I thought the section in DO where the music rapidly shifts between instruments was the only unique passage in that overture, but it recurs during the sword fight in The Path That Divides. Which means the opening bars is the only unique passage in DO.
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One thing I just realized: while being nothing alike, A Better Life and Lord Nafaryus have the same structure, in this sense:
- They both introduce two of the main characters
- They reflect their attitude and thoughts so that you get to "know them"
- They slow down while they talk about their dear ones (Evangeline for Arhys, his family for Nafaryus, with Faythe's theme appearing)
Don't know how much of this was intentional or not...
Noticed that too even in Act of Faythe, with the music player as the thing Faythe holds dear. And, surprisingly, also with Daryus in A Tempting Offer, with Nafaryus' approval the thing Daryus holds dear.
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Brother, Can You Hear Me @ 3:43 --> Three Days
Didn't see it mentioned yet, and it's indeed very brief. Then there's this one:
Astonishing @ 4:10 --> My Last Farewell
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Which means the opening bars is the only unique passage in DO.
Well, the way I hear it, the chord progression behind those opening bars (Bm - C# - Em - F#) is repeated in two places in "A new beggining":
- Around 2:00, when Nafaryus sings "Why would I ever concede..." - it's the same chord progression, but in Em (that would be Em - F# - Am - B). You can also hear the organ, as in the Overture
- From 5:15 on - that is, during the solo. The progression is in Gm, although it's not exactly the same: you get Gm - Ab - D - Fm and then Gm - A - Cm - D, repeating all over again until the end
But yeah, the melody at the opening bars of the Overture, I do too think it's unique to that track. Maybe someone has spotted it elsewhere?
RoeDent, sorry if I came across as a smart-ass, I hope I didn't. I just want to share what I found. I also ran through the album to spot the recurring motifs, so later I'll post what I have (I'll try not to repeat what's already posted).
Also, I just joined, so hi everyone! I'll introduce myself shortly.
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Which means the opening bars is the only unique passage in DO.
Well, the way I hear it, the chord progression behind those opening bars (Bm - C# - Em - F#) is repeated in two places in "A new beggining":
- Around 2:00, when Nafaryus sings "Why would I ever concede..." - it's the same chord progression, but in Em (that would be Em - F# - Am - B). You can also hear the organ, as in the Overture
- From 5:15 on - that is, during the solo. The progression is in Gm, although it's not exactly the same: you get Gm - Ab - D - Fm and then Gm - A - Cm - D, repeating all over again until the end
But yeah, the melody at the opening bars of the Overture, I do too think it's unique to that track. Maybe someone has spotted it elsewhere?
RoeDent, sorry if I came across as a smart-ass, I hope I didn't. I just want to share what I found. I also ran through the album to spot the recurring motifs, so later I'll post what I have (I'll try not to repeat what's already posted).
Also, I just joined, so hi everyone! I'll introduce myself shortly.
That's a brilliant connection! I never noticed it before, but you're right! And welcome to DTF! :tup
Another connection, both musical and lyrical: The Answer ("They are finding faith in me...") -> Begin Again ("Then I found my faith in him...")
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Nothing to add, just following. :metal
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That's a brilliant connection! I never noticed it before, but you're right! And welcome to DTF! :tup
Another connection, both musical and lyrical: The Answer ("They are finding faith in me...") -> Begin Again ("Then I found my faith in him...")
Thanks! I introduced myself in the Newb thread yesterday.
That one took a while for me to notice. It's really hard sometimes because some lines sung by a character remind you of something else sung by another character, usually in the other Act, so you get lost occasionally.
I'll try to post what I came up with later today. Would all of you prefer I included what has already been pointed out (for the sake of completeness) or would you rather I just posted other bits (for the sake of 'not repeating')??
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I'll try to post what I came up with later today. Would all of you prefer I included what has already been pointed out (for the sake of completeness) or would you rather I just posted other bits (for the sake of 'not repeating')??
I suggest doing a breakdown for each track, including what has already been posted. There will obviously be duplicates but it would be logical and easy to follow. We can split motifs and lyrics to their own "indexes" if necessary.
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I suggest doing a breakdown for each track, including what has already been posted. There will obviously be duplicates but it would be logical and easy to follow. We can split motifs and lyrics to their own "indexes" if necessary.
Good idea! Will do.
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I didn't see if this was already mentioned, but one of my favorite thematic links is between A Tempting Offer and The Path That Divides.. the main theme of Tempting Offer is reworked as the climactic close of Path That Divides. That's one of my favorite thematic links because it's subtle and because of its narrative relevance (The theme of the track in which Arhys's fateful encounter with Daryus occurs is echoed when, as as a result of that first meeting, Daryus ends up killing Arhys).
On the whole, I am very impressed with the maturity and intelligence with which the guys use and reinterpret themes to help tell the story.
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I didn't see if this was already mentioned, but one of my favorite thematic links is between A Tempting Offer and The Path That Divides.. the main theme of Tempting Offer is reworked as the climactic close of Path That Divides. That's one of my favorite thematic links because it's subtle and because of its narrative relevance (The theme of the track in which Arhys's fateful encounter with Daryus occurs is echoed when, as as a result of that first meeting, Daryus ends up killing Arhys).
Great spot, I hadn't noticed that one.
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Chosen and Losing Faythe share the same vocal melody at the start.
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Well, this is what I came up with, including pretty much everything you've already spotted - if I'm forgetting something, feel free to tell me.
I named each theme/motif/progression, so it might be easier for me to remember and refer to those pieces being repeated somewhere else. So, for instance, the chord progression which opens the album is set to an organ, so I called it "Dark organ progression". Or, there is this bit (you'll know which one) which is sung first by Nafaryus, but mostly by her daughter, so I refer to it as "Faythe's theme".
If the original poster or any of you would prefer to copy/paste whatever you want from this, no problem at all. In fact, with this sort of threads, I think it would be cool to have some sort of 'collaborative', wikipedia-ish file, so that anyone gets a chance to add something.
Also, I couldn't find any recurring theme or motif for some songs (like "The Gift Of Music" or "Whispers On The Wind"), which I think is weird. Maybe some of you can help me?
Anyway, here is Act 1:
1. Descent Of The NOMACs
2. Dystopian Overture
0:00 A. Dark organ progression (Im-II-IVm-V)
0:22 B. Nafaryus’ theme
0:44 C. Arhys’ theme
1:13 D. Heaven’s Cove’s theme
1:45 E. Sword fight motif
2:03 F. Frenetic 11/8 motif (à la 1:36 in “Surrender To Reason”)
2:28 G. Faythe’s theme
2:56 H. Brothers’ theme
3:25 I. Playful motif
3:46 J. Daryus’ theme
4:00 K. Gabriel’s theme
3. The Gift Of Music
4. The Answer
0:00 L. The Answer intro
0:25 M. The Answer verse (by Gabriel)
1:14 N. The Answer chorus (by Gabriel)
5. A Better Life
4:07 D. Heaven's Cove theme (guitar and strings)
4:23 %. Better Life motif (by Arhys over strings)
6. Lord Nafaryus
0:00 B. Nafaryus’ theme (by Nafaryus)
0:30 O. Tango motif
0:59 P. Short piano break
2:23 G. Faythe’s theme (by Nafaryus)
2:52 G. Faythe’s theme (minor key; by Nafaryus)
7. A Savior In The Square
0:00 Q. Savior motif
1:18 P. Short piano break (guitar; end of solo)
1:49 R. Royal motif (by Nafaryus)
2:53 R. Royal motif (by Gabriel)
3:44 G. Faythe’s theme (by Gabriel)
8. When Your Time Has Come
0:00 L. The Answer intro
0:35 S. WYTHC verse (by Gabriel)
1:20 T. WYTHC chorus (by Gabriel)
3:21 U. Moment motif (by Faythe)
9. Act Of Faythe
0:00 K. Gabriel’s theme
1:06 G. Faythe’s theme (by Faythe)
2:23 T. WYTHC chorus (chord progression only)
3:57 R. Royal motif
10. Three Days
0:14 A. Dark organ progression (by Nafaryus over piano)
0:18 +. Evil progression (by Nafaryus over piano) (Im-IIb-V-VIIm)
0:55 V. Gadget riff (by Nafaryus)
1:11 ~. Baroque progression (by Nafaryus) (IVm-VII-III-Im)
1:28 W. Bow-down motif (by Imperial Guards)
2:47 W. Bow-down motif (by narrator)
11. The Hovering Sojourn
12. Brother, Can You Hear Me?
1:27 H. Brothers’ theme (by Arhys)
3:05 X. Revolution theme (by Gabriel)
3:59 H. Brothers’ theme (by Gabriel)
13. A Life Left Behind
4:40 Y. Sinister motif (by Arabelle over strings)
14. Ravenskill
2:22 K. Gabriel’s theme (minor key)
4:12 U. Moment motif (by Faythe)
4:55 Z. Chosen verse (choir)
5:47 Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence :P
15. Chosen
0:30 Z. Chosen verse (by Gabriel)
1:28 @. Reason motif (by Gabriel)
16. A Tempting Offer
0:39 J. Daryus’ theme (by Daryus)
1:19 W. Bow-down motif (à la 2:47 in “Three Days”)
1:51 Y. Sinister motif (by Arhys/Daryus)
2:31 $. Offer motif (by Daryus)
3:19 J. Daryus’ theme (by Daryus)
3:44 Y. Sinister motif
17. Digital Discord
18. The X Aspect
1:38 C. Arhys’ theme (major key; by Arhys)
2:22 C. Arhys’ theme (by Arhys)
3:16 %. Better Life motif (by Arhys over strings)
3:28 H. Brothers’ theme (bagpipes)
19. A New Beginning
0:54 I. Playful motif (by Faythe)
1:10 B. Nafaryus’ theme (by Nafaryus)
1:45 I. Playful motif (by Faythe/Arabelle)
2:00 A. Dark organ progression (by Nafaryus over organ)
2:18 ~. Baroque progression (orchestra)
3:32 I. Playful motif (by Faythe/Nafaryus)
5:15 +. Evil progression (guitar)
5:32 A. Dark organ progression (guitar)
20. The Road To Revolution
1:19 G. Faythe’s theme (minor key; by Faythe)
1:49 G. Faythe’s theme (by Gabriel)
2:20 G. Faythe’s theme (chord progression only; by Daryus)
2:34 X. Revolution theme (by Arhys)
3:05 W. Bow-down motif (by Nafaryus; à la 2:47 in “Three Days”)
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Here is Act 2:
1. 2285 Entr’acte
0:00 G. Faythe’s theme
0:14 S. WYTHC verse
0:24 M. The Answer verse
0:43 B. Nafaryus’ theme
0:58 V. Gadget riff
1:14 X. Revolution theme
1:27 @. Reason motif
1:40 Y. Sinister motif
1:53 W. Bow-down motif
2. Moment Of Betrayal
0:22 K. Gabriel’s theme (minor key; similar to 2:22 in "Ravenskill")
3. Heaven’s Cove
0:44 D. Heaven’s Cove theme (guitar)
2:38 &. Heaven’s Cove verse (by narrator)
3:12 O. Tango motif (by narrator over strings)
4. Begin Again
0:54 Z. Chosen verse (cello)
1:28 N. The Answer chorus (by Faythe)
2:13 @. Reason motif (by Faythe and strings)
3:00 N. The Answer chorus (by Faythe)
3:15 @. Reason motif (alternate version by orchestra)
5. The Path That Divides
1:24 T. WYTHC chorus (by Gabriel’s voice)
3:43 E. Sword fight motif (by strings)
3:59 &. Heaven’s Cove verse (guitar)
4:06 $. Offer motif (by Daryus)
4:25 $. Offer motif (by narrator)
4:43 J. Daryus’ theme (strings)
6. Machine Chatter
7. The Walking Shadow
0:00 Metallica’s “Seek & Destroy” :P
0:15 K. Gabriel’s theme (minor key; by Xander)*
0:42 K. Gabriel’s theme (minor key; by Daryus)*
2:03 G. Faythe’s theme (soprano)
*(these two took me a while, but to me they sound like even darker versions of the ones in “Ravenskill” and “Moment Of Betrayal”; what gives it away for me are the last 3 notes in the phrase – when Xander is singing ‘You murderer!’, and Daryus ‘The night’s still young’. I always think of this notes as a reference to "Metropolis part 1" at 0:45)
8. My Last Farewell
0:28 #. Farewell chorus (by Gabriel)
1:03 F. Frenetic 11/8 motif (by Gabriel over guitar)
3:15 I. Playful motif (minor key; guitar - although here it's 7/8 + 3/4)
3:21 F. Frenetic 11/8 motif (by Gabriel over guitar)
9. Losing Faythe
0:19 Z. Chosen verse (by Nafaryus)
0:49 @. Reason motif (by Nafaryus)
3:17 #. Farewell chorus (major key; by Nafaryus)
10. Whispers On The Wind
11. Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
0:34 M. The Answer verse (by narrator)
2:17 T. WYTHC chorus (by Gabriel/townspeople; in triple meter)
12. Our New World
Basically all of the song: Q. Savior motif
13. Power down
14. Astonishing
0:00 G+K. Faythe’s theme married to Gabriel’s theme
0:37 K+G. Gabriel’s theme married to Faythe’s theme
1:23 H. Brothers’ theme (by Arhys’ spirit)
2:12 M. The Answer verse (by Gabriel)
2:44 G. Faythe’s theme (by Faythe)
3:32 X. Revolution theme (by Nafaryus)
4:10 #. Farewell chorus (chord progression only; by Arabelle over strings)
4:31 H. Brothers’ theme (by ensemble)
5:19 K. Gabriel’s theme (by ensemble)
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These are all the 30+ bits, in order of first appearance. The names might seem weird, but I think they are easy to remember; for instance, the 'U' bit was named "Moment motif" because it represents when Faythe sings "Lost in this moment..." or "This very moment...". Nevertheless, feel free to ask me about any name. Suggestions are welcome.
A. Dark organ progression
B. Nafaryus’ theme
C. Arhys’ theme
D. Heaven’s Cove’s theme
E. Sword fight motif
F. Frenetic 11/8 motif
G. Faythe’s theme
H. Brothers’ theme
I. Playful motif
J. Daryus’ theme
K. Gabriel’s theme
L. The Answer intro
M. The Answer verse
N. The Answer chorus
%. Better Life motif
O. Tango motif
P. Short piano break
Q. Savior motif
R. Royal motif
S. WYTHC verse
T. WYTHC chorus
U. Moment motif
+. Evil progression
V. Gadget riff
~. Baroque progression
W. Bow-down motif
X. Revolution theme
Y. Sinister motif
Z. Chosen verse
@. Reason motif
$. Offer motif
&. Heaven’s Cove verse
#. Farewell chorus
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Finally, and in case you are wondering: yes, I have a job. It's just that today was a holiday here in Argentina, so I had all those hours for myself ;D
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Wow. Great job there! I look forward to cross-referencing between the songs to check these out. :clap:
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Me too. Great work, man. :tup
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Standing ovation, great job!!
I remember many reviews made just after the first listen that stated that there were no/ few recurring themes..
:lol :rollin
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Amazing! Thank you very much!! Now I have to listen again to the album and follow your analysis.
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This is really subtle but at 4:55 in Ravenskill the choir sings the melody from Chosen/Begin Again
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This is really subtle but at 4:55 in Ravenskill the choir sings the melody from Chosen/Begin Again
Yeah, the section starting from there might be the same motif altogether. Well spotted!
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Great job Sebastian, looking forward to listening to the times stamps and seeing the themes/motifs in the different songs. Not that I didn't notice them, but knowing where they are is easy to find them.
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Great job!
No common themes between A Better Life and other songs?
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Great job indeed!
I would separate the "Bow down motif" in 1:28 from Three Days to the actual "Bow down" part by Imperial Guards and "With this frightening decree Nafaryus departs" Narrator's part in the end though. The last Nafaryus lines in A Road of Revolution reprise the Narrator's part, while the reprise in 2285 Entr'acte is the "bow down" part itself.
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I usually keep a text document of the lyrics with the songs on my computer. Well with this release I had to expand that and include the track descriptions. Now I have to add a Motif key document. This album is really a lot of work :)
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Excellent job Sebastian, thank you very much!
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Thanks to all of you for the feedback! I've always found helpful/interesting stuff in the forum, just wanted to contribute something.
Again, some of the motifs might not be completely correct, but that's what I'm hearing.
This is really subtle but at 4:55 in Ravenskill the choir sings the melody from Chosen/Begin Again
You're right, I didn't notice that one! Thanks! That would mean it makes its first appearance there.
I guess with each listen you start paying attention to different stuff, so there's probably a bunch of subtle stuff (like the one you mention) by only one instrument, or played slower as background, or whatever.
In a recent video interview, Jordan said that some themes re-appear played 'backwards'. I haven't found those yet.
Great job!
No common themes between A Better Life and other songs?
Well, I couldn't find any, nor in "The Gift Of Music". It's weird to me, since there is so much going on on both tracks. There surely is something, but I am missing it. If you find something, please post it!
Great job indeed!
I would separate the "Bow down motif" in 1:28 from Three Days to the actual "Bow down" part by Imperial Guards and "With this frightening decree Nafaryus departs" Narrator's part in the end though. The last Nafaryus lines in A Road of Revolution reprise the Narrator's part, while the reprise in 2285 Entr'acte is the "bow down" part itself.
Thank you!
You are spot on! I'll fix that.
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Also, and I haven't seen this mentioned before: the ending notes of Gabriel's theme reminds me of "Metropolis part 1". I think the place where this is the most evident is on "Ravenskill":
2:30 in "Ravenskill" = 0:45 in "Metropolis"
(well, the last C chord in "Ravenskill" is lower than the C on "Metropolis", but other than that they are the same notes, by a heavy guitar, on a minor key)
"Metropolis part 3" confirmed? :P
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Kudos to you guys! I had heard a lot of those motifs but you really made me see a lot more in this thread.
Since you guys clearly have better musical ears than mine, here's a challenge:
In an interview, I saw (I think it was JP, but maybe it was JR, don't remember) saying that some motifs are other motifs but inverted. With sheets I could probably find them, but just from earring, I'm not that good.
I'd be really interested to see which motifs could be another one inverted. At first I thought it could be Daryus's theme versus either Ahrys's of Fayth's, but I really can't put my finger on it, my brain is not able to invert a melody in my head haha.
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I have one candidate for an inverted motif, and it's the keyboard "solo" in The Walking Shadow. It reminds me of the Sword Fight motif in a way.
EDIT: Wait a minute... I have another one. A Better Life vs. The X Aspect.
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Again, some of the motifs might not be completely correct, but that's what I'm hearing.
Some of your interpretations actually had me raising eyebrows. I'd like to ask you, how did you come up with Gabriel's theme being in minor key (i.e. Ravenskill)? Is there more to it than the chord progression?
EDIT: Dammit, didn't mean to post a new reply here.
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I have one candidate for an inverted motif, and it's the keyboard "solo" in The Walking Shadow. It reminds me of the Sword Fight motif in a way.
EDIT: Wait a minute... I have another one. A Better Life vs. The X Aspect.
Interesting!, I'll listen to those particularily, A better Life and The X aspect would make a lot of sense, being 2 songs that revolves around Ahrys's love for his son...
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I have one candidate for an inverted motif, and it's the keyboard "solo" in The Walking Shadow. It reminds me of the Sword Fight motif in a way.
EDIT: Wait a minute... I have another one. A Better Life vs. The X Aspect.
I'll check on those later, thanks.
Some of your interpretations actually had me raising eyebrows. I'd like to ask you, how did you come up with Gabriel's theme being in minor key (i.e. Ravenskill)? Is there more to it than the chord progression?
Well, I don't recognize the same chord progression in both bits. I believe they represent the same theme based on the ending of the phrase. In "Ravenskill", the music at 2:22 is in E minor, or the relative of G major, and the last notes in the phrase are F#-G-C, and the phrase's last chord is also C (the 4th degree of G major). If the theme was in A major, those last notes would be G#-A-D, ending on D (the 4th degree). And that's exactly what you hear in "Dystopian Overture" at 4:13.
I hear the same in "The Walking Shadow" - for instance, when Daryus sings 'Like father like son', the notes are F#-G-C, ending on a C chord.
Another weird example would be the Tango section which I think reappears in "Heaven's Cove" at 3:12 for a short while. They are in different keys, but there are these bits with the same background progression (IV - I), during which you hear the strings play ascending/descending short lines (some of them chromatic in both cases).
I get your point, though, and I too think I might be unconsciously seeing things which are not there in some cases.
Also: do you recognize the beginning chord progression/melodies in "The Road To Revolution" (the first minute or so)? I'm sure it must be somewhere else.
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Well, I don't recognize the same chord progression in both bits. I believe they represent the same theme based on the ending of the phrase. In "Ravenskill", the music at 2:22 is in E minor, or the relative of G major, and the last notes in the phrase are F#-G-C, and the phrase's last chord is also C (the 4th degree of G major). If the theme was in A major, those last notes would be G#-A-D, ending on D (the 4th degree). And that's exactly what you hear in "Dystopian Overture" at 4:13.
I hear the same in "The Walking Shadow" - for instance, when Daryus sings 'Like father like son', the notes are F#-G-C, ending on a C chord.
Another weird example would be the Tango section which I think reappears in "Heaven's Cove" at 3:12 for a short while. They are in different keys, but there are these bits with the same background progression (IV - I), during which you hear the strings play ascending/descending short lines (some of them chromatic in both cases).
Also: do you recognize the beginning chord progression/melodies in "The Road To Revolution" (the first minute or so)? I'm sure it must be somewhere else.
Your ability to recognize this is amazing. May I ask how you've learned so much? Is it college music classes, or did you just pick this up from experience?
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Your ability to recognize this is amazing. May I ask how you've learned so much? Is it college music classes, or did you just pick this up from experience?
Thank you very much! I take that as a great compliment because I'm not a professional musician. I once started a career in composition, but left after the first semester. I did have private lessons on music theory for 4 months, though, and I think that helped me a lot.
However, I've played guitar since I was 11 (that's 15 years now), and during my early teens, I used to spend a lot of time in my room with my CDs, trying to learn how to play songs by ear. Believe it or not, I learned a lot from listening to Blink-182. Later it was Metallica, The Beatles and Soda Stereo (a great band from my country - I might talk about them in another thread). Then, when I discovered Dream Theater, it was a whole new world of odd time signatures for me.
I had a couple of books, but yeah, I'd say listening to literally thousands of hours of music and trying to get what was going on was the best education I had. You start recognizing several chord progressions and melodies, or the relations between different notes/intervals. After that, it's just a matter of learning how they are named.
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Hi folks !
As you can see this is my first post here in this forum. I’m impressed by Sebastian Pratesi’s work. It seems that we have the same hobbies because a few days ago, I made two videos about recurring themes in The Astonishing for the French DT fan club (and everyone who will find this interesting) and we agree about most of them. I’ve also worked about SFAM 16 years ago, but that’s another story ;D
the first video : links between Dystopian Overture and the album https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFoDUAMD4mQ
the 2nd video : links between the other songs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3-Sv7IE88w
I chose 18 of the main repeated riffs and Sebastian's analysis showed me 4 or 5 recurrent riffs or sections that I wasn't aware of !
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Wow, some really excellent work going on in this thread!
One thing though, do we really know that having 2 sections with only the same chord progression and no actual similar theme are meant to be looked at this way? I mean, considering it's DT, it may be intentional, but it may not be. If the only thing that's the same are the chords themselves but not the melodies, rhythms or even basic style then I wonder if it'd be better to classify these in a separate list to avoid confusion between the actual musical themes and these?
Also, I always thought what is being called "Gabriel's Theme" here was "Astonishing Theme", since it ends the album and isn't really limited to Gabriel. I had always assumed Gabriel's theme was The Answer if anything. Maybe I'm wrong though...
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Maybe I'm wrong though...
There is no wrong or right unless JP or JR explicitly comes out and says "This is the Astonishing Theme"
I do agree with you though, that it should be called the Astonishing Theme.
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Hi folks !
As you can see this is my first post here in this forum. I’m impressed by Sebastian Pratesi’s work. It seems that we have the same hobbies because a few days ago, I made two videos about recurring themes in The Astonishing for the French DT fan club (and everyone who will find this interesting) and we agree about most of them. I’ve also worked about SFAM 16 years ago, but that’s another story ;D
the first video : links between Dystopian Overture and the album https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFoDUAMD4mQ
the 2nd video : links between the other songs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3-Sv7IE88w
I chose 18 of the main repeated riffs and Sebastian's analysis showed me 4 or 5 recurrent riffs or sections that I wasn't aware of !
Hi, adn. I just joined the forum this week too. Your first video proved helpful to me a few days ago, as a matter of fact, because I hadn't noticed the recurring link between the fight in "The Path That Divides" and "Dystopian Overture". So, thanks to you as well!
I just watched your second video. I noticed, at 3:05, the recurring motif 8 - between "2285" and "The Road To Revolution". Maybe you meant "Lord Nafaryus"? Not a big deal, though.
Also: I remember reading about your work on Scenes From A Memory a couple of years ago. Is it still available somewhere? I never studied that album, so it would be a really interesting read for me. Thanks!
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Wow, some really excellent work going on in this thread!
One thing though, do we really know that having 2 sections with only the same chord progression and no actual similar theme are meant to be looked at this way? I mean, considering it's DT, it may be intentional, but it may not be. If the only thing that's the same are the chords themselves but not the melodies, rhythms or even basic style then I wonder if it'd be better to classify these in a separate list to avoid confusion between the actual musical themes and these?
Thanks!
Are you thinking of any specific example? Sometimes, when they are the same degrees, I am inclined to consider a chord progression a recurring "motif" (I'm not sure, but I think 'theme' is used for melodies specifically). However, as you say, in some cases it's a common progression (there are a lot of those, mostly involving just 2 chords), so it may not be intentional, and I'm imagining stuff. I guess only John and Jordan can confirm/deny. It would be cool to have a chat with them!
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I made two videos about recurring themes in The Astonishing for the French DT fan club
Really great work by adn and Sebastian. The videos really help seal the deal (especially for those of us that have grown older and think about doing something like this, but deep down know we will never get around to it)
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However, as you say, in some cases it's a common progression (there are a lot of those, mostly involving just 2 chords), so it may not be intentional, and I'm imagining stuff. I guess only John and Jordan can confirm/deny. It would be cool to have a chat with them!
I'd imagine they are all intentional simply because that's kind of what opera/broadway does. So not only was that their goal, but they were completely in that mindset. If they were just writing random songs and parts of the same muse visited them twice, they may not notice. I'd imagine they were hyper-aware of themes during the entire writing process like they've never been before.
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Also, I always thought what is being called "Gabriel's Theme" here was "Astonishing Theme", since it ends the album and isn't really limited to Gabriel. I had always assumed Gabriel's theme was The Answer if anything. Maybe I'm wrong though...
I do agree with you though, that it should be called the Astonishing Theme.
In my head it's also 'Astonishing theme', and I think it's the natural thing to call it (for the same reasons you mentioned). However, when naming the bits in "Dystopian Overture", I found there was nothing for Gabriel, and he is one of the 2 main characters, so I thought - if Heaven Cove has a theme...
Earlier, a couple of members referred to the "Act of Faythe" melody as the 'Main theme' in the album, since it re-appears constantly (more than any of the others, I believe). That one could also be considered the 'Astonishing theme'.
By naming it 'Gabriel's theme', I thought there wouldn't be confusion; although I get your point about "The Answer". So it might be a good idea to rename it... later, with some more free time.
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In my head it's also 'Astonishing theme', and I think it's the natural thing to call it (for the same reasons you mentioned). However, when naming the bits in "Dystopian Overture", I found there was nothing for Gabriel, and he is one of the 2 main characters, so I thought - if Heaven Cove has a theme...
Earlier, a couple of members referred to the "Act of Faythe" melody as the 'Main theme' in the album, since it re-appears constantly (more than any of the others, I believe). That one could also be considered the 'Astonishing theme'.
By naming it 'Gabriel's theme', I thought there wouldn't be confusion; although I get your point about "The Answer". So it might be a good idea to rename it... later, with some more free time.
I've also seen the melody in Act of Faythe called "the love theme." If you think about it, that theme is not restricted to Faythe. Nafaryus and Gabriel sing it as well (Lord Nafaryus and The Road to Revolution respectively) so it's hard to know what it really should be called. Although, every time that theme comes up, Faythe is involved in some way (for example, Nafaryus mentions her name). And then we have the "chorus" of A New Beginning that re-appears in Dystopian Overture. That never really got an accepted name anywhere else as far as I know. I wonder if it would be better, instead of trying to name the themes, to just identify the primary song where each is used?
I'm probably just over-thinking it. :lol
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I just watched your second video. I noticed, at 3:05, the recurring motif 8 - between "2285" and "The Road To Revolution". Maybe you meant "Lord Nafaryus"? Not a big deal, though.
Also: I remember reading about your work on Scenes From A Memory a couple of years ago. Is it still available somewhere? I never studied that album, so it would be a really interesting read for me. Thanks!
My mistake Seb, it is :
2285 Entr’Acte (0’59) = Three Days (0’47) (in my video at 3'05)
and
2285 Entr’Acte (1’54) = The Road To Revolution (3’05) (in my video at 1'22)
And, about SFAM, https://flabonde.free.fr/DTSFAM.htm if you appreciate old html pages :p
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Fantastic work with the videos, adn!
Unless they're really obvious, I find it hard to spot recurring motifs, so these guides are really helpful. And it's so cool what DT have done with this idea of recurring themes.
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And, about SFAM, https://flabonde.free.fr/DTSFAM.htm if you appreciate old html pages :p
Thanks, man, I'll check it out today.
Also, wanted to tell I liked your Queen medleys on YouTube.
I've also seen the melody in Act of Faythe called "the love theme." If you think about it, that theme is not restricted to Faythe. Nafaryus and Gabriel sing it as well (Lord Nafaryus and The Road to Revolution respectively) so it's hard to know what it really should be called. Although, every time that theme comes up, Faythe is involved in some way (for example, Nafaryus mentions her name). And then we have the "chorus" of A New Beginning that re-appears in Dystopian Overture. That never really got an accepted name anywhere else as far as I know. I wonder if it would be better, instead of trying to name the themes, to just identify the primary song where each is used?
I'm probably just over-thinking it. :lol
Well, it might be a good idea. 'The Love Theme' mainly appears in "Act Of Faythe", and that's why I called it "Faythe's Theme". The other one you mention: I used the word 'playful' because that's how it sounds to me, but it could be 'Beginning motif' or something.
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I have one candidate for an inverted motif, and it's the keyboard "solo" in The Walking Shadow. It reminds me of the Sword Fight motif in a way.
EDIT: Wait a minute... I have another one. A Better Life vs. The X Aspect.
I've been trying to spot the inverted motifs in those pairs of songs.
The keyboard solo vs. the swordfight: they share the meters (three bars of 4/4 + one of 7/8), so that's a start I guess. I slowed the video speed on YouTube, and tried to figure out what are the notes by the keys (on "Shadow") and strings (on "Path"), but they still sound fast to me, so I'll have to try a little harder. However, you might be onto something.
"A better life" vs. "The X Aspect": this one I have to try a little harder as well. "The X Aspect" only has one vocal melody (the one I called 'Arhys' theme', when he sings 'Evangeline, I swore to you...') so I guess that's the motif you consider, right? I wrote down a partiture with the vocal melody, so I'll see what it sounds like when inverted. Would you care to point out in what part of "A Better Life" it's inverted?
Thanks!
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"A better life" vs. "The X Aspect": this one I have to try a little harder as well. "The X Aspect" only has one vocal melody (the one I called 'Arhys' theme', when he sings 'Evangeline, I swore to you...') so I guess that's the motif you consider, right? I wrote down a partiture with the vocal melody, so I'll see what it sounds like when inverted. Would you care to point out in what part of "A Better Life" it's inverted?
I was mostly brainstorming in that post, but I have interest in these two particular tracks because of the storyline connection. It could just be as subtle as "Peacefully, she slipped away" vs. "Evangeline, I swore to you"
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I was mostly brainstorming in that post, but I have interest in these two particular tracks because of the storyline connection. It could just be as subtle as "Peacefully, she slipped away" vs. "Evangeline, I swore to you"
I just listened to both tracks a lot, writing down notes/chords, with my guitar in hand to follow the melodies, and I think I came up with some stuff:
I can't understand how I've missed it for over 2 weeks, but both songs endings' are basically the same: they have a similar sound, and they both end with the chords Bb - Am - D. Plus, the last three syllables sung by Arhys are C-D-D ("til-it's-won" and "sa-cri-fice"). So I may add it to the list, as 'Better Life motif' or something. (the chord progressions in the verses are based around I-VI, so there are also some similarities there).
Furthermore, towards the ending, I think "A Better Life" references a bit of "Heaven's Cove". At 4:13 in "A Better Life" you can hear the strings play A-B-C#-E, and then D-E-F#-A at 4:19. Those sequences of notes, when transposed to B, appear at "Heaven's Cove" (by guitar at 0:53, and soprano at 1:32). They also appear in "Dystopian Overture" at 1:22. That 4-note sequence appears in all cases in the context of a minor chord, but the sequence (I-II-III#-V) makes the chord sound major . So I'd dare to say it's an intentional reference to the 'Heaven's Cove' theme.
Lastly, at 3:38 I think "A Better Life" forshadows a short moment in "Lord Nafaryus". You hear the guitar play Bb-G#-F-E right before Arhys sings "Evangeline". Something really similar happens in "Lord Nafaryus" at 0:24 and throughout. Although, in this case I'm not sure how much of a recurring motif this last one is, since I've heard this sort of sequence in many other songs (by the band, and by others).
The notes James sings at the moment in "A Better Life" I think are the same as "to meet the savior" in the other song, so there's also that.
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When Heaven's Cove references it's part in Dystopian Overture, my god is that epic. I would agree that Faythe's Theme / Love Theme is the main theme of the album, though the BCYHM theme is a close contender.
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I just listened to both tracks a lot, writing down notes/chords, with my guitar in hand to follow the melodies, and I think I came up with some stuff:
Most of that is probably reading too much into things, but the similarity of song endings is probably legit. The rest I'd put under songwriters' preferences of coming up with things in a certain way.
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you can hear the strings play A-B-C#-E, and then D-E-F#-A at 4:19. Those sequences of notes, when transposed to B, appear at "Heaven's Cove" (by guitar at 0:53, and soprano at 1:32).
play it with a minor third and you have the intro of "Moment of Betrayal"
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Most of that is probably reading too much into things, but the similarity of song endings is probably legit. The rest I'd put under songwriters' preferences of coming up with things in a certain way.
I agree with you, although the "Heaven's Cove" subtle reference I'm convinced about (it doesn't sound exactly like it, obviously). I hope one day we can have comments on the album's motifs directly by John/Jordan, in the form of an AMA or interview or video.
play it with a minor third and you have the intro of "Moment of Betrayal"
Yeah, I know. An earlier bit of "A Better Life" (at 4:07) are those same notes. I guess it's hard to be sure what is reference and what isn't. After you've recognized the obvious ones, you start seeing things which may not really be there (what Luoto said).
I added the "Heaven's Cove" bit to the list, though, for the sake of discussion.
Also: just read through your break-down of Scenes From A Memory. That's amazing, man! There are a bunch of references I hadn't noticed before (like the chord progression from "Lifting Shadows Off A Dream"). I also liked your mentions of Metallica's songs and 'Woman Gets Happier' :P. I'm tempted to do something similar with this new album. I'm not too attached to Scenes, since it was released before I even started actively listening to music; this one, however, is becoming one of my personal favourites.
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Just finished listening to Act 1, and found a couple more chord progressions, shared between "Three Days" & "A New Beginning":
- 'Evil progression' (at 0:28 in "3D") Cm-Db-G-Bbm (in the key of Cm)
When transposed to Gm, it's the same progression that starts the guitar solo at 5:15 in "ANB". - 'Baroque progression' (at 1:11 in "3D") Dm-G-C-Am (in the key of Am)
When transposed to Em, it's the same progression that starts the baroque section at 2:18 in "ANB".
This second one I think is specially interesting. It could mean that Nafaryus also used to listen to baroque/classical music.
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I think the Moment of Betrayal bass unison section is a sped up version of the intro to A Life Left Behind. Thoughts?
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I think the Moment of Betrayal bass unison section is a sped up version of the intro to A Life Left Behind. Thoughts?
They do sound similar! I didn't notice that one. I just slowed "Moment On Betrayal" on YouTube and compared those parts. I'm not sure, because in "A Life Left Behind", most notes have the same duration, whereas in "Moment On Betrayal" there are some pauses.
But, I'll try to learn both parts on the guitar tomorrow. You might be correct!
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Throughout most of the album it felt like I was listening to TSCO. Oh wait...you meant recurring themes within the album itself. So yeah, TSCO... :lol
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Throughout most of the album it felt like I was listening to TSCO. Oh wait...you meant recurring themes within the album itself. So yeah, TSCO... :lol
Ok, I can understand BCYHM and Begin Again sounding like TSCO (MAYBE Astonishing because of the BCYHM reprise and a similar triumphant nature to TSCO), but the other ballads? The Answer, WYTHC, AoF, ALLB, Chosen, TXA, Losing Faythe, Whispers on the Wind and HoaTV sound nothing like TSCO. Also, if we extend it to non-ballads (still most of the album btw, would fill 2 disks at over 80 mins)... well, no.
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Yeah, other than the BCYHM melody I fail to hear any similarities with TSCO...and even that is a stretch.
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Yeah, other than the BCYHM melody I fail to hear any similarities with TSCO...and even that is a stretch.
It's mainly the major key sharp-7-to-tonic resolution at the end of the melody. Even still, it's a very common thing so it doesn't hold weight for a comparison.
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How's this for an obscure find? The run at 1:59 in Dystopian Overture repeats in The Path That Divides at 3:55.
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A Savior in the Square Instrumental Intro section -> Our New World
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4:00 - 4:08 during The Path That Divides is the riff for the earlier line by Nafaryus, "Why would I ever concede to listen to this fool how can you be so naive?" From A New Beginning.
EDIT: Trying to find the significance. I assume it's Arhys asking the question to himself.
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Has anyone slowed down the NOMAC tracks to see if there are any hidden melodies within the runs?
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Has anyone slowed down the NOMAC tracks to see if there are any hidden melodies within the runs?
I don't know about melodies, but in "Machine Chatter", the meters are three bars of 4/4 + one of 7/8, just like the sword-fight section right before, in "The Path That Divides".
I have to listen to the NOMAC tracks a bit more, but there might be something there.
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Do the Savior motif and The Answer motif share the same chord progression? A Savior in the Square, When Your Time Has Come and Our New World are certainly in the same key.
Act of Faythe also seems to have a descending progression during Faythe's theme, similar to what Sebastian titled Gabriel's theme.
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Do the Savior motif and The Answer motif share the same chord progression? A Savior in the Square, When Your Time Has Come and Our New World are certainly in the same key.
Act of Faythe also seems to have a descending progression during Faythe's theme, similar to what you've titled Gabriel's theme.
About the chord progressions in the intros of "Savior" and "Answer": I don't think they are the same. This is what I hear (the vertical lines separate bars):
- "Answer": I | IV - V | I - IV | V - VI | I | IV - V | I | IV - V
More emphasis on the IV degree, and less on VI. - "Savior": I | I - V | I | I - V | VI | VI - V | I | I - V | IV | II - V | I | I - V
More emphasis on the VI degree, and less on IV.
About the common key: that's right! I like to think that it's Gabriel's favourite key (it sounds happy/uplifting to me, just like all those songs).
About "Act Of Faythe": do you mean when James sings "Hope still survives"? That's the only 'descending' bit I remember. I like to think that Faythe's and Gabriel's theme (and even the "Chosen" melody) sound similar because they were written that way on purpose, so that later on "Astonishing" they could be played together (representing the newly formed couple, maybe?). So it's natural to find similarities among them.
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Yeah, seems I was wrong about Act of Faythe. What I was getting at with Savior and The Answer themes is they might be improvisations from the same jam, with the overall descending melody line (I-V correlation a lot of the time).
Also, check out the strings kicking in at 0:42 in The Path that Divides. WYTHC chorus progression in minor key?
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Yeah, probably. I feel the same way about the different melodies heard in Nafaryus' and Daryus' sections - they sound like they were written at the same time, to have a common feel.
Regarding the "Path" bit: I'm listening to both parts you mention, and there probably is a connection (after all there is the "WYTHC" by Gabriel's voice), but I'm not sure I follow you. The "WYTHC" chorus progression is Bm - A - G, but I hear 4 chords formed by the strings which form a different progression. Can you tell me what is it that you are hearing there? Or maybe you meant a different bit in "WYTHC"?
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Regarding the "Path" bit: I'm listening to both parts you mention, and there probably is a connection (after all there is the "WYTHC" by Gabriel's voice), but I'm not sure I follow you. The "WYTHC" chorus progression is Bm - A - G, but I hear 4 chords formed by the strings which form a different progression. Can you tell me what is it that you are hearing there? Or maybe you meant a different bit in "WYTHC"?
We most likely mean the same thing, but I'm listening by ear and you have an instrument to help ;)
Alright then, is this when A Better Life has its moment of recurrence? The "chorus" at 2:01 sounds like it would fit, and in that case the section when vocals start (in TPTD) should be investigated because the verse stems from that progression. Arhys' conflict of interests would be addressed this way too.
EDIT: I'm listening to Act 2 as I write; the bass and guitar solo unison in MoB you were talking about is actually not a strict one-off. The progression is in the bridge before the second chorus :) There's also this subtle, ambient ooo-ooo before the Heaven's Cove theme that strongly reminds me of Machine Chatter :lol
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Just to be on the same page: you mean the 2:01 chorus in "A Better Life", right? The chord progressions in the chorus of "WYTHC" and "Path" are indeed similar, although not exactly the same (they share the descending three chords, but their endings are different). So I guess we could consider it a re-ocurrence.
Regarding "the section when vocals start": you mean "Path" at 0:59, right? Well, I'm playing both melodies on guitar, and I kind of get your point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is: the "Path" verse melody sounds like the "ABL" chorus melody, which in turn shares the same progression as the "WYTHC" chorus, right?
I sort of see that, although I should sit and play those bits a little more.
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Just to be on the same page: you mean the 2:01 chorus in "A Better Life", right? The chord progressions in the chorus of "WYTHC" and "Path" are indeed similar, although not exactly the same (they share the descending three chords, but their endings are different). So I guess we could consider it a re-ocurrence.
Regarding "the section when vocals start": you mean "Path" at 0:59, right? Well, I'm playing both melodies on guitar, and I kind of get your point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is: the "Path" verse melody sounds like the "ABL" chorus melody, which in turn shares the same progression as the "WYTHC" chorus, right?
Yes. That section in ABL would add the fourth chord into the progression for strings. When the verse in "Path" comes in, the vocal melody starts over the strings progression and then makes similar feeling transitions as in ABL. This suggests there might be further correlation in chord progression until "as you're facing the path that divides". I'm not necessarily saying the ABL and WYTHC chorus progressions are intentionally linked though.
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Yes. That section in ABL would add the fourth chord into the progression for strings. When the verse in "Path" comes in, the vocal melody starts over the strings progression and then makes similar feeling transitions as in ABL. This suggests there might be further correlation in chord progression until "as you're facing the path that divides".
It took me a while, but I think I see your point about that section of "Path". That's some amazing analysis!
EDIT: I'm listening to Act 2 as I write; the bass and guitar solo unison in MoB you were talking about is actually not a strict one-off. The progression is in the bridge before the second chorus :) There's also this subtle, ambient ooo-ooo before the Heaven's Cove theme that strongly reminds me of Machine Chatter :lol
About the unison: I guess you're right there as well! I went back to that song, and the melodies and mood are pretty much the same in both bits. I'm not sure about what 'progression' you mean, though - isn't the bridge just a big long B chord?
About "Machine Chatter": I didn't notice the "Heaven's Cove" influence, but it makes sense to me too. In fact the first two notes in "Chatter" at 0:12 are the same ones that start the string melody you mention in "Path" at 0:42. Both "Cove" and "Path" feature the sound of NOMACs at their beginnings, so maybe the references to the two songs are intentional. Whatsmore, the meters in "Chatter" are three bars of 4/4 + one of 7/8, just like the sword fight in "Path".
So, in my opinion, "Chatter" shows us the music that the NOMACs make at those exact moments in the night. I think we should listen much more closely to "Sojourn", "Dischord" and "Power Down", because they might reference their respective scenes too. I'll do that tomorrow and I'll post what I come up with.
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About "Machine Chatter": I didn't notice the "Heaven's Cove" influence, but it makes sense to me too.
Heaven's Cove @ 0:23
Machine Chatter @ 0:17
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Yeah, I noticed. Although I haven't found anything convincing in the other NOMAC tracks.
I noticed today is the short dramatic bit in "A Savior In The Square" at 3:20 (right after Gabriel says 'ecstasy') is in a way similar to Daryus' monologue in "A Tempting Offer" (at 3:19). Both are over a heavy dissonant chord, and the fast keyboard (or is it NOMAC?) line in "Savior" sounds very similar to the piano in "Offer". I slowed down both parts but couldn't quite figure out the notes in either, so I'm not sure.
Anyway, I'm happy because today I was able to 'understand' the end of "The Walking Shadow". It took me like 2 hours of rewinding/pausing, but now I know the structure/time signatures for each instrument (well, minus keyboards). It was hard, because the section starts with bass only, and the notes initially sound like played at random times, but after a while it all makes sense.
It's not a recurring theme, but that section is my favourite from the album (behind the "Overture"'s sword-fight), and possibly my overall favourite by the band. So amazing!
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Hmm... time to put on our propel hats again :P
7. The Walking Shadow
0:00 Metallica’s “Seek & Destroy” :P
I spotted a matching guitar lick for this and it's in Dystopian Overture, at 0:14 (apparently the last two chords in the Dark Organ progression). The Bow-down motif also has a similar finish in the narrator section of Three Days, modified accordingly.
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I think I agree with you about the "Dystopian Overture" lick - I find it's similar to two places in "The Walking Shadow"'s riff:
-The beginning (the first 5 eighth notes): they are not the same notes even when transposed, but they have their similarities.
-The end (the last 4 eighth notes): when transposed, pretty much the same as the lick (minus its first note). The only difference is in "Dystopian Overture" the interval starting at B should be a 4th, not a 2nd; but, since the lick is over an Em chord, it's like the 4th is in fact there.
I checked the part you mention on "The Walking Shadow", and that one I'm not sure. Do you mean the finish "before" the narrator comes in? Or while the narrator finishes?
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Did anyone notice the Lord Nafaryus connection in the first vocal-line of "The Road to Revolution"? (1:19)
"He only see what he desires to see" is basically the same melody as "Into the far off reaches of the land"
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Did anyone notice the Lord Nafaryus connection in the first vocal-line of "The Road to Revolution"? (1:19)
"He only see what he desires to see" is basically the same melody as "Into the far off reaches of the land"
Yeah, both of these are basically a minor key version of Faythe's theme (Lord Nafaryus at 2:23). We have a pretty extensive list on page 2.
I checked the part you mention on "The Walking Shadow" "Three Days", and that one I'm not sure. Do you mean the finish "before" the narrator comes in? Or while the narrator finishes?
I mean the two notes after the word 'departs', for example - when the progression cycle comes to an end. The vibe is kind of similar, and I wouldn't be surprised if the motifs shared similarities.
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14. Ravenskill
4:55 Z. Chosen verse (choir)
After this, the guitar seems to play something akin to The Answer chorus ("We will walk this road together...").
(Oh man, not again... another new reply instead of editing the previous post :lol)
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I mean the two notes after the word 'departs', for example - when the progression cycle comes to an end. The vibe is kind of similar, and I wouldn't be surprised if the motifs shared similarities.
Oh, thanks for correcting the song! My bad.
The vibe is similar, but I'm not sure about the notes, because in "Three Days" those notes are C and B - that is, the III and II of the key (in this case A). Whereas in "Overture" and "Shadow", the notes are VI and V of the respective keys.
Although in all cases the notes are in a dominant context, so maybe?
14. Ravenskill
4:55 Z. Chosen verse (choir)
After this, the guitar seems to play something akin to The Answer chorus ("We will walk this road together...").
Hey, that one I agree with! In fact, the "We will walk this road together..." melody has always sounded familiar but I never noticed where from, until you pointed out :). Now that I hear it, not only the guitar is practically the same, but the first 4 notes James sings too:
"We will walk this" = "They are found-ing"
Nice catch!
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Hey, that one I agree with! In fact, the "We will walk this road together..." melody has always sounded familiar but I never noticed where from, until you pointed out :). Now that I hear it, not only the guitar is practically the same, but the first 4 notes James sings too:
"We will walk this" = "They are found-ing"
Yep, I started to wonder if that section is structured exactly the same as in "Begin Again", and indeed it is!
Other notes:
- The melody lines in The Answer intro and the intro to "Chosen" progress in a similar way. Chord progressions of these sections sound like mirrors to each other though.
- There's an eerie similarity in how the verses of "The Answer" and "Chosen" build up. It's hard to explain, but one way is to look at how they tail off right after these lines:
Am I not the man who I was meant to be?
vs.
If given just a chance
Again, not recurring motifs per se, but something to think about.
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I could be really wrong here, as I don't really understand tempos, time stamps etc, but is there any correlation between the very opening piano on the gift of music and the answer? they kinda sound similar....
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14. Ravenskill
2:11 J. Daryus' theme (alternate version by choir)
There seem to be various ways to catch a break with these, this time it was the official synopsis (https://www.dreamtheater.net/theastonishingtracks/#cnt14). I interpret this brief section as Daryus overseeing his sister's moves and gaining Arhys' whereabouts in the process. First appearance outside the overture.
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Just finally noticed after probably 40 listens that the opening piano of "The Answer" is the same as the opening synth of "When Your Time Has Come," just in a different key. Brilliant!
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I think the opening solo of A Savior in the Square may have a similar melody to the chorus of When Your Time Has Come. It follows "As you're facing the path that" then deviates. Also, aren't there any themes from TGoM? I remember bosk saying "Yes, we have heard some reccuring themes" when asked about it.
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I think the opening solo of A Savior in the Square may have a similar melody to the chorus of When Your Time Has Come. It follows "As you're facing the path that" then deviates.
The songs are in the same key, and I've argued that intros to both may be a result from the same jam session.
Also, aren't there any themes from TGoM? I remember bosk saying "Yes, we have heard some reccuring themes" when asked about it.
Can't recall any, but some subtle references may escape us because of it being so early on the album.
I updated the motifs index Sebastian previously put up, including some mistake corrections. I'll post it soon, there's just some things I'm gonna check first.
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Alright, here it is. Previously undocumented changes:
- Changed WYTHC chorus to WYTHC verse in "Hymn of a Thousand Voices", which I assume Sebastian originally meant.
- Introduced Xander's theme, denoted with the exotic Å. The recurrence isn't only connected with the "Gabriel's triad" of notes, but also the earlier half of the guitar riff in Ravenskill.
- Tango motif (O.) wasn't a recurring theme, I found the similarity to be too vague in the end
ACT I
1. Descent Of The NOMACs
2. Dystopian Overture
0:00 A. Dark organ progression (Im-II-IVm-V)
0:22 B. Nafaryus' theme
0:44 C. Arhys' theme
1:13 D. Heaven's Cove theme
1:45 E. Sword fight motif
2:03 F. Frenetic 11/8 motif (à la 1:36 in “Surrender To Reason”)
2:28 G. Faythe's theme
2:56 H. Brothers' theme
3:25 I. Playful motif
3:46 J. Daryus' theme
4:00 K. Gabriel's theme
3. The Gift Of Music
0:12 Q. Savior motif (à la Our New World)
4. The Answer
0:00 L. The Answer intro
0:25 M. The Answer verse (by Gabriel)
1:14 N. The Answer chorus (by Gabriel)
5. A Better Life
4:23 %. Better Life motif (by Arhys over strings)
6. Lord Nafaryus
0:00 B. Nafaryus' theme (by Nafaryus)
0:59 P. Short piano break
2:23 G. Faythe's theme (by Nafaryus)
2:52 G. Faythe's theme (minor key; by Nafaryus)
7. A Savior In The Square
0:00 Q. Savior motif
1:18 P. Short piano break (guitar; end of solo)
1:49 R. Royal motif
2:53 R. Royal motif (by Gabriel)
3:44 G. Faythe's theme (by Gabriel)
8. When Your Time Has Come
0:00 L. The Answer intro
0:35 S. WYTHC verse (by Gabriel)
1:20 T. WYTHC chorus (by Gabriel)
3:21 U. Moment motif (by Faythe)
9. Act Of Faythe
0:00 K. Gabriel's theme
1:06 G. Faythe's theme (by Faythe)
2:23 T. WYTHC chorus (chord progression only)
3:57 R. Royal motif
10. Three Days
0:00 R. Royal motif
0:14 A. Dark organ progression (by Nafaryus over piano)
0:18 +. Evil progression (by Nafaryus over piano) (Im-IIb-V-VIIm)
0:55 V. Gadget riff (by Nafaryus)
1:11 ~. Baroque progression (by Nafaryus) (IVm-VII-III-Im)
1:28 W. Bow-down motif (by Imperial Guards)
2:47 W. Bow-down motif (by narrator)
11. The Hovering Sojourn
12. Brother, Can You Hear Me?
1:27 H. Brothers' theme (by Arhys)
3:05 X. Revolution theme (by Gabriel)
3:59 H. Brothers' theme (by Gabriel)
13. A Life Left Behind
4:40 Y. Sinister motif (by Arabelle over strings)
14. Ravenskill
2:11 J. Daryus' theme (alternate version by choir)
2:22 Å. Xander's theme
4:12 U. Moment motif (by Faythe)
4:55 Z. Chosen verse (choir)
5:19 N. The Answer chorus (guitar)
15. Chosen
0:00 Z. Chosen verse
1:28 @. Reason motif (by Gabriel)
16. A Tempting Offer
0:39 J. Daryus' theme (by Daryus)
1:19 W. Bow-down motif (à la 2:47 in “Three Days”)
1:51 Y. Sinister motif (by Arhys/Daryus)
2:31 $. Offer motif (by Daryus)
3:19 J. Daryus' theme (by Daryus)
3:44 Y. Sinister motif
17. Digital Discord
18. The X Aspect
1:38 C. Arhys' theme (major key; by Arhys)
2:22 C. Arhys' theme (by Arhys)
3:16 %. Better Life motif (by Arhys over strings)
3:28 H. Brothers' theme (bagpipes)
19. A New Beginning
0:54 I. Playful motif (by Faythe)
1:10 B. Nafaryus' theme (by Nafaryus)
1:45 I. Playful motif (by Faythe/Arabelle)
2:00 A. Dark organ progression (by Nafaryus over organ)
2:18 ~. Baroque progression (orchestra)
3:32 I. Playful motif (by Faythe/Nafaryus)
5:15 +. Evil progression (guitar)
5:32 A. Dark organ progression (guitar)
20. The Road To Revolution
1:19 G. Faythe's theme (minor key; by Faythe)
1:49 G. Faythe's theme (by Gabriel)
2:20 G. Faythe's theme (chord progression only; by Daryus)
2:34 X. Revolution theme (by Arhys)
3:05 W. Bow-down motif (by Nafaryus; à la 2:47 in “Three Days”)
ACT II
1. 2285 Entr'acte
0:00 G. Faythe's theme
0:14 S. WYTHC verse
0:24 M. The Answer verse
0:43 B. Nafaryus' theme
0:58 V. Gadget riff
1:14 X. Revolution theme
1:27 @. Reason motif
1:40 Y. Sinister motif
1:53 W. Bow-down motif
2. Moment Of Betrayal
0:22 K. Gabriel's theme (minor key)
3. Heaven’s Cove
0:44 D. Heaven's Cove theme (guitar)
2:38 &. Heaven's Cove verse (by narrator)
4. Begin Again
0:54 Z. Chosen verse (cello)
1:28 N. The Answer chorus (by Faythe)
2:13 @. Reason motif (by Faythe and strings)
3:00 N. The Answer chorus (by Faythe)
3:15 @. Reason motif (alternate version by orchestra)
5. The Path That Divides
1:24 T. WYTHC chorus (by Gabriel’s voice)
3:43 E. Sword fight motif (by strings)
3:59 &. Heaven's Cove verse (guitar)
4:06 $. Offer motif (by Daryus)
4:25 $. Offer motif (by narrator)
4:43 J. Daryus' theme (strings)
6. Machine Chatter
7. The Walking Shadow
0:15 Å. Xander's theme (by Xander)
0:42 Å. Xander's theme (by Daryus)
2:03 G. Faythe's theme (soprano)
8. My Last Farewell
0:28 #. Farewell chorus (by Gabriel)
1:03 F. Frenetic 11/8 motif (by Gabriel over guitar)
3:15 I. Playful motif (minor key; guitar - although here it's 7/8 + 3/4)
3:21 F. Frenetic 11/8 motif (by Gabriel over guitar)
9. Losing Faythe
0:19 Z. Chosen verse (by Nafaryus)
0:49 @. Reason motif (by Nafaryus)
3:17 #. Farewell chorus (major key; by Nafaryus)
10. Whispers On The Wind
11. Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
0:34 M. The Answer verse (by narrator)
2:17 S. WYTHC verse (by Gabriel/townspeople; in triple meter)
12. Our New World
0:00 Q. Savior motif (basically all of the song)
13. Power down
14. Astonishing
0:00 G+K. Faythe's theme married to Gabriel's theme
0:37 K+G. Gabriel's theme married to Faythe's theme
1:23 H. Brothers' theme (by Arhys' spirit)
2:12 M. The Answer verse (by Gabriel)
2:44 G. Faythe's theme (by Faythe)
3:32 X. Revolution theme (by Nafaryus)
4:10 #. Farewell chorus (by Arabelle)
4:31 H. Brothers' theme (by ensemble)
5:19 K. Gabriel's theme (by ensemble)
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Thanks, man! I have to do some stuff around town now, but I'll give it a read at night, to see what's new to me.
14. Ravenskill
2:11 J. Daryus' theme (alternate version by choir)
Oh yeah! The notes are A-F#, B-F#. If you reverse them (F#-A, F#-B) and transpose them, you find them played by the strings/choir at the end of "The Path That Divides", for example. Your explanation of the story makes sense.
I think the opening solo of A Savior in the Square may have a similar melody to the chorus of When Your Time Has Come. It follows "As you're facing the path that" then deviates. Also, aren't there any themes from TGoM? I remember bosk saying "Yes, we have heard some reccuring themes" when asked about it.
Well, both the solo in "Savior" and chorus in "Time" start with an ascending minor 3rd and then play around F#-D-E-D, so they are similar indeed. In fact, I hadn't noticed until you mentioned it.
About "The Gift Of Music": some members have found the acoustic intro similar to the one on "The Answer", but they have different chord (and note) progressions, and different rhythmic accents, so I don't know. Besides that, there's nothing I have noticed. There also the possibility that some of the instrumental riffs/sections are recycled in other songs' instrumentals (maybe "Moment Of Betrayal"?). I guess with further listening something will emerge.
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Alright, here it is. Previously undocumented changes:
- Changed WYTHC chorus to WYTHC verse in "Hymn of a Thousand Voices", which I assume Sebastian originally meant.
- Introduced Xander's theme, denoted with the exotic Å. The recurrence isn't only connected with the "Gabriel's triad" of notes, but also the earlier half of the guitar riff in Ravenskill.
Oh yeah, I meant 'WYTHC verse'. Thanks for pointing it out.
About 'Xander's theme': what do you mean with 'earlier half of the guitar riff in Ravenskill'?
Also: do you see the "Moment Of Betrayal" riff as different to 'Xander's theme'? Maybe because of the first half of the riff? Because the second half ('Gabriel's triad' of notes, I believe) is pretty much the same.
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About 'Xander's theme': what do you mean with 'earlier half of the guitar riff in Ravenskill'?
Also: do you see the "Moment Of Betrayal" riff as different to 'Xander's theme'? Maybe because of the first half of the riff? Because the second half ('Gabriel's triad' of notes, I believe) is pretty much the same.
Not easy to explain but I'll try :) It's the whole string of melody in Ravenskill, from 2:22 to 2:33; in the first half there's a counterpart to Gabriel's triad that goes D-B-F. Now compare that to "Don't hold your breath, the night's still young." Xander's lines are a little different and I see that as a variant of sorts.
Moment of Betrayal... well, it's in the same key, but not quite the same melody as far as I can tell. Managed to learn the intro section on piano (I know half the song, yay!) and I do find the note triad, just that it's either in the middle of the cycle or has an E thrown in between. Feel free to give me a time stamp if I'm missing something :) I also know the intro section backs the chorus as well.
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Not easy to explain but I'll try :) It's the whole string of melody in Ravenskill, from 2:22 to 2:33; in the first half there's a counterpart to Gabriel's triad that goes D-B-F. Now compare that to "Don't hold your breath, the night's still young." Xander's lines are a little different and I see that as a variant of sorts.
Oh yeah, you have a point - in Daryus' case the notes would be E - C# - G, right? (albeit in a different order).
In Xander's case, they would be G - E - Bb, also in a different order: G (what have you) - Bb (done) - E (you murderer).
OK, I'll call this 'Xander's triad' here.
Moment of Betrayal... well, it's in the same key, but not quite the same melody as far as I can tell. Managed to learn the intro section on piano (I know half the song, yay!) and I do find the note triad, just that it's either in the middle of the cycle or has an E thrown in between. Feel free to give me a time stamp if I'm missing something :) I also know the intro section backs the chorus as well.
During the first bar/chord, both the riff in "Ravenskill" (guitar) and "Moment" (piano/strings) start with E - F# - G - B (and then the other two notes are F# - G in different orders), so that's what makes them the same to my ears (well, besides the 'Gabriel triad' like you said). I'll call this 'Xander's intro' here.
Besides that, while checking out the songs once again, I just realized they share a chord progression:
- In "Ravenskill" (2:22 - 2:25):
-'Xander's intro': Em
-'Xander's triad': D + F - In "Moment" (0:49 - 0:54); also repeating throughout (verses, the beginning of guitar solo and of outro):
-Brace yourself my brother: Em
-I have breaking news: D + F
Regarding the 'Xander's triad' you mentioned: I don't know if it's looking way too much into it, but I think it also appears disguised in "Moment Of Betrayal", when the guitar plays this 5 note riff at the end of the intro (0:47), the first and last chorus (1:57 & 5:20), the outro (5:47), etc:
C - B - F# - A - D#
If that last part was intended that way, then you would have all the elements of 'Xander's theme' - the intro, the chord progression, both triads - shared between both songs.
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Oh yeah, you have a point - in Xander's case the notes would be G - E - Bb, right?
Although, in a different order - G (your) - Bb (breath) - E (still).
OK, I'll call it 'Xander's triad' here (a major 6th and then a diminished 5th).
Yeah, Xander's lines sound like a different order. "Hold your breath" and "night's still young" roughly match D-B-F and F#-G-C from Ravenskill, respectively. It sounds like these two were stitched together, with a couple of extra notes. There's also the progression asymmetry because of 7/4 time.
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Also about "Ravenskill" - sorry if you have already brought it up, but I just noticed the melody (G-F#-A-E / G-F#-C-B) sung by Arhys, Faythe and the strings from 3:38 to 4:40 (foreshadowed by the guitar at 3:18 - 3:37) is similar to some recurrences of 'Daryus' theme':
- "A Tempting Offer"
-Piano intro: Db-C-Eb-Bb. This is exactly the same as the first half of the melody, only in a different key.
-Guitar riff: Db-C-Eb-A. Only the last not doesn't resolve. A more dramatic version. - "The Path That Divides"
Strings at 4:43 play a complete similar melody, but with the little twist from the guitar riff in "Offer"
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Yeah, Xander's lines sound like a different order. "Hold your breath" and "night's still young" roughly match D-B-F and F#-G-C from Ravenskill, respectively. It sounds like these two were stitched together, with a couple of extra notes. There's also the progression asymmetry because of 7/4 time.
Hey, I realized you quoted my post before I edited it. Shortly after I posted I realized I made a couple of mistakes, so I corrected them (mainly in that part you quoted). Just in case you were wondering.
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If only there were guitar tabs for Ravenskill and The Walking Shadow from those sections... that would definitely help clarify how clever the recurrence really is. The theme revolves around a few triads of notes, rather than chords.
EDIT: Threw this together, I hope it's somewhat understandable. One vertical bar represents one beat. The numbers below notes (1-4) mark the note triad recurrences.
RAVENSKILL (4/4)
By guitar (2:22)
| | | | | | | |
E E F# G B F# G D B C F ( ignored ) E
1 1 1 2 2 2
| | | | | | | |
(E) E F# G B A G F# G C (C)
3 3 3 4 4 4
THE WALKING SHADOW (7/8)
By Xander and guitar (0:15)
| | | | | | |
F# F# C G
1 1
| | | | | | |
A# D D#
1 4 4
| | | | | | |
F# F# C G
4 1 1
| | | | | | | |
A# F# F E
1 3 3 3
By Daryus (0:42)
| | | | | | |
C C C# G
2 2
| | | | | | | |
E E F# G C
2 4 4 4
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Hey, that makes sense! So, that Xander/Daryus section would be a more dramatic/distorted version of the one in "Ravenskill", right?
Especially Xander's part (no wonder - Xander has just lost his father). It's like those note triads re-appear but with some twists which make them more... 'dissonant'?
Off-topic: I would bet that the chord progression (or melody) in the intro of "The Road To Revolution" is from somewhere else, but I can't seem to find it. Maybe you had any luck?
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I just wanted to tell you all (I already told sebastian) that I mentioned your analysis to John Petrucci when I interviewed him. He was quite pleased and impressed!!
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Off-topic: I would bet that the chord progression (or melody) in the intro of "The Road To Revolution" is from somewhere else, but I can't seem to find it. Maybe you had any luck?
Try The Gift of Music at 2:19, sounds like both bits are periodically ascending and then descend in the end.
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Mm, I'm not hearing it. Maybe tomorrow with more attention.
I started finding the riff in "The Gift of Music" similar to the one in "Our New World". In "Gift" during the 2nd verse (0:51) you even have the riff in D, like the one in "World". They are basically the same notes, over the same chord:
- "Gift" (both bars in 7/4)
A - A - F#/G - F# - E - D | A - A - F#/G/F# - E - D - "World" (1st bar in 4/4, 2nd bar in 7/8):
A - A - F#/G/F# - F#/G/A | A - A - G/F# - E/D - E/D
That 2nd verse in "Gift" also sounds similar to the beginning of the chorus in "World", starting at 0:57 - you have 2 bars of D, a bar of C, a bar of a couple of different chords, and then two other bars of D. If you speed up "World" on YouTube (at 1.25, or 1.5) it's more noticeable.
Thoughts on that one? I'm not sure about this chord progression bit, but the riffs MUST be intentional... right?
Also: I just realized the 'Bow-Down motif' in "Three Days" (1:28) is the same as Daryus singing your note triad #2 in "The Walking Shadow" (at 0:44, 0:50 and 0:56). Well, not exactly the same, because in "Three Days" the motif is in A (the first note of the triad), whereas in "Shadow" it's in E (the last note of the triad).
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I just wanted to tell you all (I already told sebastian) that I mentioned your analysis to John Petrucci when I interviewed him. He was quite pleased and impressed!!
I was there at the interview and John said "I knew someone would do this" :tup
Mm, I'm not hearing it. Maybe tomorrow with more attention.
I started finding the riff in "The Gift of Music" similar to the one in "Our New World". In "Gift" during the 2nd verse (0:51) you even have the riff in D, like the one in "World". They are basically the same notes, over the same chord:
- "Gift" (both bars in 7/4)
A - A - F#/G - F# - E - D | A - A - F#/G/F# - E - D - "World" (1st bar in 4/4, 2nd bar in 7/8):
A - A - F#/G/F# - F#/G/A | A - A - G/F# - E/D - E/D
That 2nd verse in "Gift" also sounds similar to the beginning of the chorus in "World", starting at 0:57 - you have 2 bars of D, a bar of C, a bar of a couple of different chords, and then two other bars of D. If you speed up "World" on YouTube (at 1.25, or 1.5) it's more noticeable.
Thoughts on that one? I'm not sure about this chord progression bit, but the riffs MUST be intentional... right?
Right ! It must be ! Congrats Sebastian !
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Updated the list :) I also noticed there might be another match with Gift, as the acoustic guitar in The Answer intro doesn't descend like the lead piano does.
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I was there at the interview and John said "I knew someone would do this" :tup
Right ! It must be ! Congrats Sebastian !
Thanks! Can't wait to read/watch your interview.
Updated the list :) I also noticed there might be another match with Gift, as the acoustic guitar in The Answer intro doesn't descend like the lead piano does.
I'm sorry, a bit confused. Are you saying that the guitars in both songs match? Or that the guitar in "Gift" matches the piano in "Answer?
(Now that I think about it, the highest notes on the piano in "Answer" (B - A - A/G# - F# - E) sound to me like a slower, more melancholic version of the riff in "Gift")
Also, thanks for updating the list these last few days. Maybe when I have some more free time in a couple of weeks I'll sit down and carefully re-name/re-order the themes (so that the reading is much more comfortable).
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I also noticed there might be another match with Gift, as the acoustic guitar in The Answer intro doesn't descend like the lead piano does.
I'm sorry, a bit confused. Are you saying that the guitars in both songs match? Or that the guitar in "Gift" matches the piano in "Answer?
Guitar vs. guitar. They don't sound exactly the same from what I can hear, but they might share something.
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I think the last 30 seconds of TGoM might be similar to something in the middle of Ravenskill. Not sure, though.
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An interesting interview with JR recently is in his description of how the TA album was composed. They started with the story, then the music, then the lyrics.
So the music was written based on the story. Not the lyrics. So I think an analysis of recurring motifs should also be tied to points in the story, which would confirm whether a motif is indeed recurring or maybe there are just some surface similarities. :)
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Guitar vs. guitar. They don't sound exactly the same from what I can hear, but they might share something.
For sure! In fact, I had the same thought yesterday. Doesn't seem that weird of an idea as I initially thought.
I think the last 30 seconds of TGoM might be similar to something in the middle of Ravenskill. Not sure, though.
I checked the part you mention in "The Gift Of Music". The guitar riffs do sound similar to the ones in "Ravenskill" at 2:22, but they are not exactly the same. Maybe you meant something different?
So the music was written based on the story. Not the lyrics. So I think an analysis of recurring motifs should also be tied to points in the story, which would confirm whether a motif is indeed recurring or maybe there are just some surface similarities. :)
Oh, sure! We've been trying to establish some links between the music and the story. For instance, Luoto spotted a little reference to 'Daryus' theme' in the middle of "Ravenskill", which could represent his silent presence in that scene (eventhough he gets no lyrics in that song).
Now that you mention it, it might be an interesting and fun idea to incorporate those story-references to the list of recurrences, although it would also be a lot of hard work and involve much discussion. Maybe we could start doing it piece by piece, starting with the more obvious ones, to see what format might be convenient, or how well we understand the story.
In fact, I've been toying with the idea of starting a wikia devoted to the album - the musical aspect, of course, but also the story, the characters, the plot holes, etc. If there is enough interest, and other people willing to be part of it, I think it might end up really cool.
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I can help with that once I finish my Master's thesis. :lol
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I can help with that once I finish my Master's thesis. :lol
What is your thesis on? What is your career?
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I can help with that once I finish my Master's thesis. :lol
What is your thesis on? What is your career?
Sociology. My thesis is on the homogenization of institutions. :lol
I think my sociological training is what is helping me see latent structures in Dream Theater songs. :lol
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Intro to The Road to Revolution has always reminded me of A Better Life, either the 5/8 bridge or the "chorus". Melodies are obviously different, don't know if they're counterpoints to each other or something.
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Into to The Road to Revolution has always reminded me of A Better Life, either the 5/8 bridge or the "chorus". Melodies are obviously different, don't know if they're counterpoints to each other or something.
Yes, it's been reminding me of the "A Better Life" chorus too, but I try not to trick myself - there must be another section in the album which features that same progression, it's way too long to not be referenced earlier (or after)!
I have some free time until I start working next week, so I think I'm going to start making a more organised/detailed database of what has been spotted so far, with corrections. Maybe, while re-listening to some songs with more attention, I might find the "Revolution" intro somewhere else.
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10. Three Days
0:00 R. Royal motif
"The crowd has grown, and all are mesmerized..." It's a direct continuation from Act of Faythe, weird there's not a seamless track change.
EDIT: Also... bingo! The note sequence heard in the intro of TRTR sounds like the exact same as the outro of Begin Again. Only half of the cycle though. The ending of TRTR might also be a major key version of the intro.
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10. Three Days
0:00 R. Royal motif
"The crowd has grown, and all are mesmerized..." It's a direct continuation from Act of Faythe, weird there's not a seamless track change.
Oh you mean the outro to "Act Of Faythe" = the intro to "Three Days", right? Good call!
(the soprano + piano at the very end of "Act Of Faythe" is really similar now that you mention it.)
EDIT: Also... bingo! The note sequence heard in the intro of TRTR sounds like the exact same as the outro of Begin Again. Only half of the cycle though. The ending of TRTR might also be a major key version of the intro.
Yeah, a few extra notes in "Begin Again", but they are pretty much the same. Cool!
As for the "Revolution" outro, I'm not sure about that one - it features way less notes than the intro, so it's hard to tell for me.
I just finished an intensive listening of the intro, and I am toying with the idea that the intro might consist of various different bits from different songs. This is how I break the intro down:
1st Phrase: Em - G | C - G / D
2nd Phrase: Em - D | C - C / D
3rd Phrase: Em - D | F - Am
4rth Phrase: Em - C | G - D
5th Phrase = 1st
6th Phrase = 2nd
7th Phrase = 3st
8th Phrase = Em - Eb (after that, the song goes to Gm, and Faythe starts her theme).
Now, as far as the chord progressions, I think these are possible matches:
- 2nd Phrase = "When Your Time Has Come" chorus (1:22, twice) = "Act Of Faythe" chorus (2:22, once)
- 4th Phrase = "Chosen" chorus (1:57, twice; they are in the same key, so it's easier to check)
Furthermore, the 1st Phrase is pretty much the same progression as 3:08 in "A New Beginning" (when Arabelle sings 'You knew how it felt to feel invisible'). There's always the possibility that I'm hearing it wrong and "Revolution" starts Em - D (instead of G), so in that case they would match. Still, they match at the very least in a 75% :P
As for the 3rd phrase, I haven't been able to spot anything in Act I. Maybe another day I find something in Act II.
As far as melodies, I also think that there are subtle references to earlier songs. These are some possibilities:
- 1st Phrase = "Begin Again" outro
- 3nd Phrase (0:15) = "Ravenskill" (1:47)
The lines 'And all is clear', 'Trust me, don't be scared' & 'I am looking for your father' are extremely similar - they are even on the same key, so again it's easier to check. The note sequences are E-F#-G, and A-C-B, and they both appear a lot in Faythe's lyrics. - 4th Phrase (0:24) = "A Better Life" (0:23)
When transposed, the melody (G-F#-E-D-B) is exactly the same as what the violin plays twice in "Life", although in different keys.
That's what I'm hearing. Some references I might be overthinking, but some seem intentional to me. I guess I'll see what I think of that section later on.
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Hmm... how's the music behind these lines?
On the path that divides
You were there by my side
There will be no betrayal tonight
I found courage and strength
In the words you once sang
Tore the truth from the lies
On the path that divides
Parts in italics are more or less direct references to When Your Time Has Come.
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Hmm... how's the music behind these lines?
On the path that divides
You were there by my side
There will be no betrayal tonight
I found courage and strength
In the words you once sang
Tore the truth from the lies
On the path that divides
Parts in italics are more or less direct references to When Your Time Has Come.
Oh yeah, the lyrics are a total reference to "When Your Time Has Come". I think they also did that sort of thing (where one character sings the modified lyrics that a character sang earlier) in Scenes From A Memory. Faythe also sings a modified "The Answer" chorus in "Begin Again", right?
As far as the music, the melody does sound similar in some parts, more evidently at the end: in "TPTD", the last time James sings 'Path that divides' the notes are F#-E-D#-C#, which is a one tone transposition of E-D-C#-B - the 'Path that divides' in "WYTHC". The 'Courage and strength' also matches 'Facing the' in "WYTHC".
The chords? I don't think they share anything.
- "TPTD" - there are some shifts in the keys of the section, so I put the fundamental chord darker.
E G#m | B D#m | E G#m | F# E | F#m A | C#m E | G#m B | F# E - "WYTHC"
Bm A | G | Bm A | G | Bm A | G F#m | Em | A
Now that I think about it, the chord progression behind the guitar solo in "TPTD" (3:59) sounds like a heavier, more dramatic version of the underlined part in "WYTHC". You lower the 4th chord by a semitone, add a few ascending notes at the end (to bridge between the 5th and 6th chords), and that's it really!
(If that's so, then I made a mistake by calling it a reference to "Heaven's Cove", although the guitar solo itself actually reminds me of that song).
So, maybe we can add some of those "WYTHC" lyrical/musical references to "TPTD".