*Official* The Astonishing discussion thread

[Kotowboy]

Much better than the " you have to be a computer programmer to figure it all out" from last time.

[Wim Kruithof]

I dived into the 7 hour (!) full breakdown of the Astonishing novel by Peter Orullian, on Youtube. He talks about every part of the album, the novel, the characters, the images, landscape and all that. Now was the Astonishing aging well on me already, but this definitely helps even more. I've ordered the paperback of the novel, which would arrive in a couple of weeks, while I already have the hardcover. But reading is easier in a paperback, plus that my hardcover remains as new. But I also truly hope to get a limited edition of the Astonishing, at some point.

Because after all, it might end up being my favorite of all.

[illusionist]

While all the other 14 DT albums have settled down in me and i know exactly how i feel or how much i like each of them, The Astonishing is the only album that has not yet reached its full potential, for me.
What i mean by that is that, even though i love it, it's still getting better and better with each and every listen, 9 years after its release.
But it didn't start this way. I was utterly disappointed at first listens that i decided to not even think about it being in the DT discography.
I don't remember when, and how, it was that clicked for me, probably during COVID.
The thing is that this album is the most unique in all DT discography. It has so much variety, so many beautiful melodies, the best JLB performance in any album, and so many great and memorable moments, that it's humanly impossible to not like it (even love it) if you pay close attention to it.
As I'm writing this i am listening to it and it has so many details to discover that one needs repeated listens to fully grasp the magnitude of what DT really did there.
I am beyond grateful that they took this risk, so deep in their careers, and created something monumental.
Their most experimental album, and the most difficult to compose and record.
But boy, was it worth it..

[erciccio]

While all the other 14 DT albums have settled down in me and i know exactly how i feel or how much i like each of them, The Astonishing is the only album that has not yet reached its full potential, for me.
What i mean by that is that, even though i love it, it's still getting better and better with each and every listen, 9 years after its release.
But it didn't start this way. I was utterly disappointed at first listens that i decided to not even think about it being in the DT discography.
I don't remember when, and how, it was that clicked for me, probably during COVID.
The thing is that this album is the most unique in all DT discography. It has so much variety, so many beautiful melodies, the best JLB performance in any album, and so many great and memorable moments, that it's humanly impossible to not like it (even love it) if you pay close attention to it.
As I'm writing this i am listening to it and it has so many details to discover that one needs repeated listens to fully grasp the magnitude of what DT really did there.
I am beyond grateful that they took this risk, so deep in their careers, and created something monumental.
Their most experimental album, and the most difficult to compose and record.
But boy, was it worth it..

I totally agree with your view here!
I've recently started to listen to the album again, after a few years of hiatus, and I love it more after each listen!
Even some of the tracks that I had put in my "black list", such as "Last Farewell" or "a Tempting offer" contains musical gems!
And overall, the amount of beautiful melodies is simply...astonishing!
I've really missed this side of Dream Theater a lot, in the last couple of albums, and I'm afraid that the same will happen with Parasomnia but..."I guess we'll see. Yes we shall see"

[Wim Kruithof]

I wasn't around when Train of Thought was released, but I really wonder if it get the same amount of disgust, like The Astonishing. Because there's a huge similarity between those, as - although at least through my eyes - they're both on the other side of the Dream Theater spectrum. The lack amount of riff based metal on The Astonishing isn't that different than the lack amount of melody on Train of Thought.

And as much as I love Train of Thought and it feels most like home from their entire discography, I am glad to see there are still fans out here who (re)discover The Astonishing. I've listen to the whole album countless of times by now... and really love the piece.

[Dedalus]

I wasn't around when Train of Thought was released, but I really wonder if it get the same amount of disgust, like The Astonishing

Not even close!

With ToT I remember a certain feeling of disappointment with the band on the part of many fans (please consider "many" within a much smaller universe of fans, because at that time I didn't know that many people who liked DT). There was in fact a strong opinion that it was a bad album, that it wasn't DT and that DT was experimenting with Nu Metal**  .

With Astonishing it was much worse. It was the first time I saw people who were fans of the band starting to hate them. I think it was a mix of the feeling of "I don't accept the band without MP" with "this fucking album only has ballads".

In addition, ToT brought a significant number of new fans to the band. TA made a good portion of those who had not left with MP now leave.

** I never understood this statement (maybe because of that part in ITNoG?), but I remember hearing it from more than one person. I think that in the early 2000s some heavy music fans were scared by the Nu Metal wave and everything they considered bad would go to the Nu Metal ditch.

[Dream Team]

Not even close!

With ToT I remember a certain feeling of disappointment with the band on the part of many fans (please consider "many" within a much smaller universe of fans, because at that time I didn't know that many people who liked DT). There was in fact a strong opinion that it was a bad album, that it wasn't DT and that DT was experimenting with Nu Metal**  .

With Astonishing it was much worse. It was the first time I saw people who were fans of the band starting to hate them. I think it was a mix of the feeling of "I don't accept the band without MP" with "this fucking album only has ballads".

In addition, ToT brought a significant number of new fans to the band. TA made a good portion of those who had not left with MP now leave.

** I never understood this statement (maybe because of that part in ITNoG?), but I remember hearing it from more than one person. I think that in the early 2000s some heavy music fans were scared by the Nu Metal wave and everything they considered bad would go to the Nu Metal ditch.

You can count me as one who hated the nu-Metal influence on ToT. In contrast, I liked TA immediately.

[ytserush]

While all the other 14 DT albums have settled down in me and i know exactly how i feel or how much i like each of them, The Astonishing is the only album that has not yet reached its full potential, for me.
What i mean by that is that, even though i love it, it's still getting better and better with each and every listen, 9 years after its release.
But it didn't start this way. I was utterly disappointed at first listens that i decided to not even think about it being in the DT discography.
I don't remember when, and how, it was that clicked for me, probably during COVID.
The thing is that this album is the most unique in all DT discography. It has so much variety, so many beautiful melodies, the best JLB performance in any album, and so many great and memorable moments, that it's humanly impossible to not like it (even love it) if you pay close attention to it.
As I'm writing this i am listening to it and it has so many details to discover that one needs repeated listens to fully grasp the magnitude of what DT really did there.
I am beyond grateful that they took this risk, so deep in their careers, and created something monumental.
Their most experimental album, and the most difficult to compose and record.
But boy, was it worth it..

I agree. Are you a fan of the lyrics? To me lyrically, continues to be the only aspect keeping me from agreeing that this is a total and complete masterpiece.

[TheCountOfNYC]

I agree. Are you a fan of the lyrics? To me lyrically, continues to be the only aspect keeping me from agreeing that this is a total and complete masterpiece.

Honestly, listen to any musical soundtrack, and you'll notice how clunky the lyrics are. It's hard to write compelling dialogue that fits into the rhythmic structure of a song, and very few people can do it effectively.

[BeatriceNB]

I agree. Are you a fan of the lyrics? To me lyrically, continues to be the only aspect keeping me from agreeing that this is a total and complete masterpiece.

I don't think the lyrics in TA are as bad as the popular perception thinks.
And even then, I&W and Awake have some iffy lyrics; and SFAM, in my opinion, is terrible lyrically.
For a "my music player" and "remember, Bug?", there's a "Victoria is real!" and "lines take me higher"; for a "(soldiers footsteps SFX)" and "(clashing swords SFX)", there's a "(panned moans and casino SFX)" and "open your eyes, Nicholas (record scratch)".

[ytserush]

Honestly, listen to any musical soundtrack, and you'll notice how clunky the lyrics are. It's hard to write compelling dialogue that fits into the rhythmic structure of a song, and very few people can do it effectively.

Admittedly I have a very limited knowledge with lyrics to musicals but I wouldn't consider Phantom Of The Opera, CATS or Hamilton to be clunky. Also, I never thought of The Astonishing as a musical. Seeing it that way might change my perception.

[ytserush]

I don't think the lyrics in TA are as bad as the popular perception thinks.
And even then, I&W and Awake have some iffy lyrics; and SFAM, in my opinion, is terrible lyrically.
For a "my music player" and "remember, Bug?", there's a "Victoria is real!" and "lines take me higher"; for a "(soldiers footsteps SFX)" and "(clashing swords SFX)", there's a "(panned moans and casino SFX)" and "open your eyes, Nicholas (record scratch)".

I'm not as big a fan of Scenes as some here.(It's not a favotie In general Kevin Moore was the best lyricist on Images and Words and Awake. I seem to like John's lyrics the least for some reason in general and maybe that's why I wish he'd gotten help. If they tried something like that again (Which won't happen.) it might work out better

[Ben_Jamin]

Honestly, listen to any musical soundtrack, and you'll notice how clunky the lyrics are. It's hard to write compelling dialogue that fits into the rhythmic structure of a song, and very few people can do it effectively.

Hadestown is one of them that does it effectively.

Although I love the album, for me, it's main flaw is not being a bigger project than we got. Being released as something like "John Petrucci presents The Astonishing played by Dream Theater" acknowledges the album as being a band project, and having JLB playing the Narrator would also be a way to indicate the band involvement. Having different singers playing the cast I think would have heightened the story and it's impact.

I for one really enjoy the concept and the story. When I listen to it, I can imagine the characters, scenery, and see the story unfold. The music and the themes present the various emotions of the characters, and I also like how these themes blend into one another during the songs. If the album had different singers, It would really enhance my experience and imagination of the story itself. I also think the different singers would expand the emotional impact since each singers tone and expression is different. Although, JLB did an excellent job at presenting these different emotional expressions and tone in his different vocal styles.

The closest to this would be this amazing cover by Eren Basbug, the conductor on Breaking the Fourth Wall. Ayumi  Ueda does an excellent job portraying Faythe, it's as close we got with how I imagine Faythe to represented vocally.

[TAC]

That's a nice video!

I for one really enjoy the concept and the story. When I listen to it, I can imagine the characters, scenery, and see the story unfold. The music and the themes present the various emotions of the characters, and I also like how these themes blend into one another during the songs.

I totally agree.


I don't agree on the different singers thing. Then it's an Avantasia album. We wouldn't have different drummers on different songs, or different guitar players.

[Thoughtspart3]

I agree. Are you a fan of the lyrics? To me lyrically, continues to be the only aspect keeping me from agreeing that this is a total and complete masterpiece.

The lyrics are part of it. For me it is more the world building and characters. For example, Lord Nefaryus is portrayed as this horrible tyrant. Then, in the same song, he is this loving family man. This is just not believable. It also makes Nefaryus not a very compelling villain, since, after all, he is really a nice guy that is just a little off track. In "The Gift of Music" it says "cold blooded wicked tyrants threaten the freedom of mankind". I think the problem is we are TOLD he is a wicked tyrant but we are never SHOWN it beyond some threats.

When Nefaryus arrives trumpets playing a melody introduce him. This is music. However, isn't music banned? Am I missing something?

When Nefaryus arrives he allows and even invites Gabriel to sing. Why would he do that? It gave the chance for everyone to hear the music, especially his guards and family! Wouldn't they be influenced? Yes they would be, and Faythe is bewitched! It is like Hitler allowing his family to read books on democracy or listen to Churchill's speeches.     

It is inconsistencies or poor writing choices like these that throw me out of the story. I wish it didn't. I think the music and epic nature of the composition are great. I thought it was great live as well.

 

[Thoughtspart3]

I am beyond grateful that they took this risk, so deep in their careers, and created something monumental.

One thing that concerns me is that due to the mixed reception on TA, they will never try something like it again. It seems like they heard the criticism that it didn't FEEL like Dream Theater. Too many Ballads, not heavy enough, etc. Since then the albums have not departed from the DT formula. I am sad that they have not, and may not do another concept album.

Surely, they could hit the sweet spot with something like Scenes, or Six Degrees disc 2. Something ambitious and creative that also feels like progressive metal. Full of melodies, changes in moods, repeated musical themes that develop throughout the piece, different musical genres that fit the mood of the section, etc. One can only hope.

[Thoughtspart3]

I seem to like John's lyrics the least for some reason in general and maybe that's why I wish he'd gotten help. If they tried something like that again (Which won't happen.) it might work out better

I agree. On a project this big having more collaboration in the writing process would have helped. When I digested the story for the first time I felt that many things would have been different it MP was there to help write and produce. I am thinking giving John feedback on some of the story elements and the world itself would have been very helpful.

As you guys can tell from my number of posts, I really like this album. It is just that I think it is a triple that could have been a home run. I wish it had been a home run, or better yet, a grand slam! (I know some of you think it was and that is cool)

[nobloodyname]

I don't agree on the different singers thing. Then it's an Avantasia album. We wouldn't have different drummers on different songs, or different guitar players.

Totally different kettle of fish, though, no?

[TAC]

Totally different kettle of fish, though, no?

What do you mean?

[Ben_Jamin]

The lyrics are part of it. For me it is more the world building and characters. For example, Lord Nefaryus is portrayed as this horrible tyrant. Then, in the same song, he is this loving family man. This is just not believable. It also makes Nefaryus not a very compelling villain, since, after all, he is really a nice guy that is just a little off track. In "The Gift of Music" it says "cold blooded wicked tyrants threaten the freedom of mankind". I think the problem is we are TOLD he is a wicked tyrant but we are never SHOWN it beyond some threats.

Nefaryus being a family man makes him more human to me. We are given more information about how Nefaryus and how the people are oppressed by his tyrant rule in the descriptions for the songs on their website. (But since that is down now, it's on Genius) https://genius.com/Dream-theater-the-gift-of-music-lyrics

In Three Days, we are actually shown his tyranny when he says..."Should you refuse me, fear for your lives
Ravenskill shall burn!" Which is what he will do if Gabriel does not surrender in Three Days.

When Nefaryus arrives trumpets playing a melody introduce him. This is music. However, isn't music banned? Am I missing something?

Music is not banned. As is shown in "The Gift of Music" descriptor I linked to.

Since working class families are now consumed with the day-to-day challenges of survival, forced to bear the lion's share of taxes needed to support the Empire, any dedication, investment or interest in the arts has all but been abandoned. People just don't have the time or the desire to participate in any of the creative forms of human expression that art, dance and especially music have to offer anymore. And, why should they?

As music is manufactured and played through the NOMACS, the "trumpets" are being broadcasted from the NOMACS, which is how Nefaryus bombastically announced his arrival. Just imagine how loud they sound.

When Nefaryus arrives he allows and even invites Gabriel to sing. Why would he do that? It gave the chance for everyone to hear the music, especially his guards and family! Wouldn't they be influenced? Yes they would be, and Faythe is bewitched! It is like Hitler allowing his family to read books on democracy or listen to Churchill's speeches.     

Gabriel is seen as a savior by Arhys since he was born with a natural "gift" to produce and easily play/sing music. This influence Gabriel has over people, and the rumors of him having a "magical power" are why Nefaryus sees him as a threat over his tyrannical rule.

Nefaryus wanted to see Gabriels magical gift first hand, that's why he went to Ravenskill and demanded Gabriel to show him his gift of music that has inspired and influenced a lot of the people. The people of Ravenskill were already exposed to Gabriels gift as is shown in the song descriptors I linked to. He brought his family with him because it shows the dominance of his tyranny, "Why did the royal family come here to Ravenskill?", it makes the people fear and question. It also allows Daryus, his heir, to exert his future rule over the people.

Faythe was not "bewitched" by Gabriels song. Faythe felt at home and it brought Faythe to realize where she truly belongs, thanks to her secret that she hides from her family, the music player she found while searching the castle halls. She was already exposed to the wonders and power of music way before she heard Gabriels song. We are shown this by the next song, Act of Faythe, which is an interpersonal revelation of her finding the music player and witnessing the power of Gabriel's song.


I personally gather that the main theme of the album is presented in "When Your Time Has Come", which is facing the path that divides, and each character in this story faces this theme. From the moment Gabriel plays his song, this is where each character begins to explore which path of division to choose. Some characters choices end up being detrimental to them, while others choices are beneficial.

[nobloodyname]

What do you mean?

Different characters are singing.

[BeatriceNB]

That's a nice video!



I totally agree.


I don't agree on the different singers thing. Then it's an Avantasia album. We wouldn't have different drummers on different songs, or different guitar players.

I think a fair comparison would be Ayreon, which is/was often mentioned when discusding The Astonishing.

[Thoughtspart3]

Nefaryus being a family man makes him more human to me. We are given more information about how Nefaryus and how the people are oppressed by his tyrant rule in the descriptions for the songs on their website. (But since that is down now, it's on Genius) https://genius.com/Dream-theater-the-gift-of-music-lyrics

In Three Days, we are actually shown his tyranny when he says..."Should you refuse me, fear for your lives
Ravenskill shall burn!" Which is what he will do if Gabriel does not surrender in Three Days.


Music is not banned. As is shown in "The Gift of Music" descriptor I linked to.


As music is manufactured and played through the NOMACS, the "trumpets" are being broadcasted from the NOMACS, which is how Nefaryus bombastically announced his arrival. Just imagine how loud they sound.


Gabriel is seen as a savior by Arhys since he was born with a natural "gift" to produce and easily play/sing music. This influence Gabriel has over people, and the rumors of him having a "magical power" are why Nefaryus sees him as a threat over his tyrannical rule.

Nefaryus wanted to see Gabriels magical gift first hand, that's why he went to Ravenskill and demanded Gabriel to show him his gift of music that has inspired and influenced a lot of the people. The people of Ravenskill were already exposed to Gabriels gift as is shown in the song descriptors I linked to. He brought his family with him because it shows the dominance of his tyranny, "Why did the royal family come here to Ravenskill?", it makes the people fear and question. It also allows Daryus, his heir, to exert his future rule over the people.

Faythe was not "bewitched" by Gabriels song. Faythe felt at home and it brought Faythe to realize where she truly belongs, thanks to her secret that she hides from her family, the music player she found while searching the castle halls. She was already exposed to the wonders and power of music way before she heard Gabriels song. We are shown this by the next song, Act of Faythe, which is an interpersonal revelation of her finding the music player and witnessing the power of Gabriel's song.


I personally gather that the main theme of the album is presented in "When Your Time Has Come", which is facing the path that divides, and each character in this story faces this theme. From the moment Gabriel plays his song, this is where each character begins to explore which path of division to choose. Some characters choices end up being detrimental to them, while others choices are beneficial.

Thanks for the further explanations. They do help some. However, it is usually a criticism of a book, movie, or other work if the story requires a lot of explanation outside of the work itself. One has to keep in mind that many people are not going to pursue all of this extra information but only listen to the album.

A few things still don't make sense. If music is not banned then what is the big deal about it? Why does faith have to hide her music player? Why are they scarce to the point that she's the only one that has one? It's things like this that make it seem that music is banned which is confusing. You are right that the story doesn't say outright that music is banned. In the gift of Music it just says that people don't have time for music anymore. I think I feel it would be more compelling if music was outright banned which is what I thought initially when I heard the story and what I still thought until now.

I still don't feel like your explanation is convincing concerning exposing his family to Gabriel's music. They are hearing his rebellious singing that is influencing everyone towards Rebellion. When I say faith is bewitched I'm talking From Nefaryus's perspective. That's surely how he would see it. However, it's his fault! He is the one that put her in that position and also encouraged Gabriel to sing in her presence. That just seems like a terrible idea. Why just not send his forces to arrest Gabriel or destroy the village? Also, I just realized that Nefaryus bringing his family with him puts them all in danger of this rebel group which he feels so threatened by that he shows up in force.

Thanks again for taking time to answer my questions.

[TAC]

This is why I would never buy The Astonishing book or anything like that. It's because I don't care about any of the details and shit. I love the album, and for me the characters are extremely generally thematic instruments trying to convey an emotion. I actually think it works pretty well.

[Northern Lion]

Even though I agree with the lyrics being less than amazing on The Astonishing, I got to admit that it's been surprisingly prophetic since it's release.  Especially with the advent of AI.  And this adds a weight to the album that other albums in their discography don't have.

[TAC]

And this adds a weight to the album that other albums in their discography don't have.

I agree. What's weird is it pretty much contains all of the elements that people complain that DT is missing, yet a lot of people don't like the album.

[Ben_Jamin]

Thanks for the further explanations. They do help some. However, it is usually a criticism of a book, movie, or other work if the story requires a lot of explanation outside of the work itself. One has to keep in mind that many people are not going to pursue all of this extra information but only listen to the album.

I do get your point, it's similar to how people won't read the book that a movie was based from. Like not reading Harry Potter books and only knowing the movies, while the book includes even more details and scenes that the movie just could not portray. Using the Harry Potter example, in the first book, there is a puzzle that involves potions and to pass through Ron and Harry had to ingest the potions and turn into gas, this was omitted from the movie.

In the novel, JP wrote an introduction that goes into detail about the conception of the story and the work involved in this immense project. JP wanted to do a lot with it, including the game, novel, and he even states he wanted to do a Broadway show and more. The work itself includes all these things, not just the album, and I understand why.

As I was putting the proposal together to show the band, I knew it was ambitious and would ask a lot of them, as well as of the fans and record label. It would be expensive and involved. But I had a certain fire to see it all through. Because of that, most of the critical decisions were made up front. I wanted it to be a show with two acts in presentation. I wanted it to be a double CD of two hours of music. I wanted to use a real orchestra, real choir, real piano, etc. I wanted to do a novel, a game, a Broadway show, and more. All of this was part of a fairly comprehensive outline I showed the guys once I had it all laid out...

Obviously, now the album is done and we've toured extensively to support it. We released a game. And the novel has become a reality. Longer term, I'm still hopeful of seeing it as a live production, whether on Broadway or off-Broadway or as a one-off. I look at it as an evolving thing. And I'd love to see the various characters presented in that way.

A few things still don't make sense. If music is not banned then what is the big deal about it? Why does faith have to hide her music player? Why are they scarce to the point that she's the only one that has one? It's things like this that make it seem that music is banned which is confusing. You are right that the story doesn't say outright that music is banned. In the gift of Music it just says that people don't have time for music anymore. I think I feel it would be more compelling if music was outright banned which is what I thought initially when I heard the story and what I still thought until now.

I still don't feel like your explanation is convincing concerning exposing his family to Gabriel's music. They are hearing his rebellious singing that is influencing everyone towards Rebellion. When I say faith is bewitched I'm talking From Nefaryus's perspective. That's surely how he would see it. However, it's his fault! He is the one that put her in that position and also encouraged Gabriel to sing in her presence. That just seems like a terrible idea. Why just not send his forces to arrest Gabriel or destroy the village? Also, I just realized that Nefaryus bringing his family with him puts them all in danger of this rebel group which he feels so threatened by that he shows up in force.

Thanks again for taking time to answer my questions.

A lot of the questions you are asking are addressed in the book.

To the bolded, in the novel, Daryus is portrayed as wanting to basically do what you were asking in the question, but Nefaryus disagrees and tells Daryus, "Leadership isn't all an exercise of strength...You need to start thinking further ahead. How to compromise your enemy, not simply how to bowl them under." Daryus' way of thinking is why Nefaryus felt Daryus was not ready to receive a second name. Nefaryus wanted the family to be present, Nefaryus says "I want it recorded that we've made every effort to find a peaceful resoultion here." which Faythe then responded "Are we seeking peace?" Faythe was respected by Nefaryus and given that name by him for her skills of having a way of inspiring confidence, making peace. Nefaryus tells Daryus "Yes, I want you to mobilize the first battalion. They should be ready for military operations, but I suspect this will be more for show. Have the parade detail attend us." This then shows why Daryus did what he did, at this moment he "appeared happy to have a part to play, but disappointed he wasn't entrusted to take care of this on his own."

I'll either edit my post or do another post responding to the questions about Faythe's music player and why the people are not interested in making music anymore.

[Wim Kruithof]

Interesting Nafaryus-debate Thoughtpart & Benjamin.



The novel of Scenes with these easter eggs to suggest the world of 1928 turns into this Astonishing-empire centuries later, let The Astonishing grew even more in my appreciation. Beautiful written by Orrulian, who seems to really understand where Petrucci would like to go with the concept.

[BeatriceNB]

I agree. What's weird is it pretty much contains all of the elements that people complain that DT is missing, yet a lot of people don't like the album.

I think The Astonishing has the same "problem" as The Wall: it has probably some of the band's best and most diverse writing, but it's not easily listenable. In both cases, only a couple of songs work fully on their own (which are the ones with a clear verse-chorus structure).

[Thoughtspart3]

I agree. What's weird is it pretty much contains all of the elements that people complain that DT is missing, yet a lot of people don't like the album.

I know. I was surprised by the negative reaction when many were clamoring for things similar to what they did. That is why I am trying to figure out why it didn't land well with many of the fans. I think the story has a lot to do with it. It was for me at least.

However, I also think it had such a different vibe than the previous several albums that many fans were disappointed. It is similar to when Opeth eliminated all of the growls. It was a bridge too far for many.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Even though I agree with the lyrics being less than amazing on The Astonishing, I got to admit that it's been surprisingly prophetic since it's release.  Especially with the advent of AI.  And this adds a weight to the album that other albums in their discography don't have.

This is a great point and something I hadn't thought about. Cool stuff.

[TAC]

I think The Astonishing has the same "problem" as The Wall: it has probably some of the band's best and most diverse writing, but it's not easily listenable. In both cases, only a couple of songs work fully on their own (which are the ones with a clear verse-chorus structure).

Yeah, I can get on board with what you're saying. The Astonishing's criticisms are all mostly fair as I can see it, even if I may or may not agree with all of them.

[ytserush]

I agree. On a project this big having more collaboration in the writing process would have helped. When I digested the story for the first time I felt that many things would have been different it MP was there to help write and produce. I am thinking giving John feedback on some of the story elements and the world itself would have been very helpful.

As you guys can tell from my number of posts, I really like this album. It is just that I think it is a triple that could have been a home run. I wish it had been a home run, or better yet, a grand slam! (I know some of you think it was and that is cool)

I've never had a problem with the concept. It's just that some of the execution is deeply flawed.

[brakkum]

I had a dream last night that DT did another Astonishing tour with MP. I went and there was about 3 dozen people there

I'm still pissed they didn't film that tour.

[Dedalus]

I had a dream last night that DT did another Astonishing tour with MP. I went and there was about 3 dozen people there