Why does DT not get all the respect they deserve?

[Stadler]

I was always a Mother Love Bone fan. . . . Gentle Groove and Chloe Dancer/Crown of Thorns are two beautiful songs that I still listen to till this day. I'll take them any day over Nirvana. I never liked Nirvana...not at all.

I know that was irrelevant to the discussion, but I felt like bringing it up. 

I will contribute to the distraction by simply giving a "+1" to all of that.  ALL.  OF.  IT.  And while there are any number of songs you could add to the list, I will just give a quick plug for Man of Golden Words and relinquish the mic.

I remember hearing "Crown of Thorns" on the Singles soundtrack - before I knew that Andrew was dead, or that the band was 40% Pearl Jam - and then being really freaked out when I heard the backstory to Temple of the Dog.  That lyric is so... not creepy, not freaky, but eerie, knowing that he lost the battle against his demons.   Impossible to ever know, but it is hard not to project that he knew...

[rumborak]

In a world where "Blackstar" can rise to #1 on the Billboard charts, I refuse to believe that people are musically "dumbed down".

[SystematicThought]

I think his death may have helped that one

[rumborak]

Sure, no doubt, but the album nonetheless gets universal praise, with RYM ranking it as a top-5 album of his. While I can see people buying the album on a whim, they won't rate it highly on RYM on a whim.
I mean, same with Hand. Cannot. Erase. by Steven Wilson. Far from "dumbed down" music I would say, and yet it is the album that recently propelled him into a whole level of popularity.

People don't not listen to DT because they are dumbed down, they don't listen to DT because they don't like DT.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

You're all over the map.  Is it "culture" that is dumbed down, or is it "music" that is dumbed down?  They are not the same thing. What I'm saying is that when you have more than one variable ("culture" is made up of more than just "music"), you can't point at ONE variable (here, "music") and say it is indicative of all of them.   

It's true for all forms of culture. It's just that this is a music forum so I highlighted music, but similar arguments could be made for literature, screenwriting, visual arts etc. I simply thought most people here wouldn't care about a discussion on romantic literature.

And then, you are, within music, comparing one specific genre of one time period with another specific genre of another time period. 

The term classical music refers to the common practice period which runs roughly from 1600 to 1900. Thus I'm not talking about a specific genre of music, but all music created during a timespan of 3 centuries (which is a lot). Pop is also not really a specific genre but refers to whatever happens to be the most popular at any given point in time. Thus I'm comparing time periods more than boxed-in genres (though if I did that it would still amount to the same outcome).

It's not enough to say "classical music was the "pop" of it's time".  No, it wasn't, in the sense that there were not the modes of transport that there are now.  You wanted music?  You had to go to a music hall and hear it performed.  There was no "studio" with which one could "create" a piece of sound with no regard for the actual playing of it.

That's what you would think, but
A. concerts were much, much more common than they are now. You could go to a large concert every evening in even a medium sized town if you wanted to, and multiple times a day in cities like Vienna.
B. instrumental skills were much more widespread. In practically every family there was at least one person who played an instrument decently in Western Europe and who would do so on a daily basis. It was also very common to sell piano and string quartet transcriptions for people to play at home, which they did in large numbers, thus creating a common cultural repertoire if you will.
C. street musicians were much more common. If you walked outside in any European city during the 18th or 19th century, you would hear music.

What was the analogue to the mall?  To movies?  To the smartphone?  To sporting events?  To surfing the internet?   To "Netflix and chill"?  To PlayStation?  To playing on GarageBand?   To cable television?   To regular telephones?  To cooking?  To any of 1,000 things that people do today to find emotional and intellectual relief and stimulation.   

I still think this undermines your argument more than anything. Sure, there are some things nowadays that can give you an endorphine rush that weren't there before, but how is that related to the decline of culture? There are more sources of pleasure so then it's okay for culture to decline because...?

No, I'm not implying it, I'm outright saying it.  Yeah, I am.   What's the most common knock against the Malmsteens and Manginis of the world?   Phenomenal technique, no emotion. "Robotic".  I'm not suggesting that it is true all the time, but there's a reason that "The Beatles" wasn't John Van Halen, Paul Pastorius, George Malmsteen, and Ringo Peart.   

I don't want to offend but this argument really baffles me honestly. You're making an incredible generalization, extrapolating from one guitar player and one drummer in the same genre in the same century to the entire history of western music... So, let's assume you're indeed right, then the following is true:

"Beethoven, Brahms, Chopin and all other classical composers had no emotion. Additionally, all music written in between roughly 1600 and 1900 had no emotional content and was only about technique. Jazz also has no emotion and is purely for showing off."

I hope you see my point. The reason The Beatles was more popular was a huge marketing engine, the fact that they were hot, and the fact that their music is incredibly simple and engineered as a product to be as easily digestible and sellable as possible. Taking this into account, it would indeed be very strange if Malmsteen would have been more famous. In pop music, the popularity of the music is very rarely indicative of its actual content.

There's also a reason - and I don't mean to venture into sexism here, but it's something to contemplate - that women flocked to the Beatles and not to Weather Report.

Are you really going to equate musical quality with female attention?? Because then Nickelback is better than all prog bands together. Also, Mozart and Liszt were Don Juans if there ever were some, so the whole thing would be a giant paradox.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

Sure, no doubt, but the album nonetheless gets universal praise, with RYM ranking it as a top-5 album of his. While I can see people buying the album on a whim, they won't rate it highly on RYM on a whim.
I mean, same with Hand. Cannot. Erase. by Steven Wilson. Far from "dumbed down" music I would say, and yet it is the album that recently propelled him into a whole level of popularity.

People don't not listen to DT because they are dumbed down, they don't listen to DT because they don't like DT.

As mentioned, the death of artists tends to have a huge impact on people's opinions. Also, Bowie established himself playing mostly undemanding sing-along songs. When your brand name is already as established as his was, you can release almost anything and people will think it's great, because people hear what they want to hear.
Also, Hand. Cannot. Erase. is indeed not dumbed down (though also not sophisticated), but to say it "propelled him into popularity" is a gross overstatement IMO. He is more popular now in prog music, but lightyears away from being anything close to mainstream. Mainstream music continues to be dumbed-down to the extreme.

[hefdaddy42]

I've often wondered where the term "prog elitism" comes from.

No I haven't.

[ariich]

Sure, no doubt, but the album nonetheless gets universal praise, with RYM ranking it as a top-5 album of his. While I can see people buying the album on a whim, they won't rate it highly on RYM on a whim.
I mean, same with Hand. Cannot. Erase. by Steven Wilson. Far from "dumbed down" music I would say, and yet it is the album that recently propelled him into a whole level of popularity.

People don't not listen to DT because they are dumbed down, they don't listen to DT because they don't like DT.

I don't think RYM is a very good measure of the general public. People on RYM have a tendency to gravitate towards certain styles, genres and artists over others.

[lovethedrake]

There are several off putting things about Dream Theater.  In fact, they are the only one of my favorite bands that I believe has an enormous amount of flaws.   However, the positives are so spectacular that I overlook the flaws and consider them a top 5 and even top 3 band of mine.  Here are the flaws and why people don't like them:

1. They have a ridiculous image....long hair, cheesy music videos, spandex in early 90s....   Take one look at them and its complete joke.   

2. Their lyrics are super cheesy and they take themselves WAY too seriously.

3. Keyboard solos... I have had friends get pumped about a DT song and as soon as the keyboard solo happens they immediately dismiss it as video game music (which I love btw)

4. Long Songs- aint nobody got time for this shit.

5. Labrie- High pitched Cindi Lauper like vocals is not a way to attract a mainstream audience. 


Gabriel era Genesis, the Kinks, and The clash fill out the rest of my top 4 and I honestly don't think I could say a single bad thing about those bands.  They are complete genius bands with amazing images and incredible songwriting and sound.

So... how can I have DT in my top 4 with all of those complaints and flaws I pointed out?     LISTEN TO THEM PLAY THOSE INSTRUMENTS!   

No band outside of maybe "Yes" can play as brilliantly and technically sound as DT.   I also personally love James Labrie so while he was listed as a flaw I am a big fan. The song writing and compositions of Dream Theater's music is outstanding and awe inspiring, especially everything Pre-TOT. If DT could write vocal melodies half as good as their instrumentals they would be the most legendary band out there. 

Anyways,  I love DT and they are definitely one of my favorite bands, however, I don't think its hard to see why they are not everyone's cup of tea.

[IdoSC]

EDIT: I thought this is the spoiler thread. Whoops, sorry.

[Prog Snob]

...and they take themselves WAY too seriously.

Care to expound on that because I fervently disagree.

[lovethedrake]

Luckily for me "lyrics" have never been that important.  If the song is amazing, the words can be gibberish and I will still love it.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

I've often wondered where the term "prog elitism" comes from.

No I haven't.

Prog elitism, pfft! General historical cultural elitism is more my thing, not just prog. I guess I should be very ashamed now, elitists are generally considered to be Bad People by the strong arm of political correctness. 

By the way, do you prefer apples or oranges? HAH I knew it you're an elitist too! A covert angiosperm elitist to be precise. One of the more insiduous types if you ask me

[IdoSC]

Care to expound on that because I fervently disagree.

Please remove my quote from your post as it may be a spoiler and I removed it myself. I could explain in a PM or when the album comes out.

[lovethedrake]

and they take themselves WAY too seriously.

You're in the clear in that regard.

Care to expound on that because I fervently disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYtiDCXLAcQ

[Prog Snob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYtiDCXLAcQ

I'm a bit confused as to how they take themselves too seriously with your evidence being a video made in 1992.

[CDrice]

Personnally, I think DT's fan take the band much more seriously than the band itself does.

[lovethedrake]

Hey, more power to you if that video moves you.   Personally, I think its the biggest piece of cheesy shmaltzy crap I have ever seen. 

However, with that said, I love Another Day.  One of the songs that got me into DT. 

Can't watch the video without majorly cringing though. 

DT in its current state has a little bit more of a sense of humor but the posting in question is regarding why DT doesn't have respect and its video's like this that answer that IMO.

Imagine Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, Bowie or someone considered cool making a video that awful.

[bosk1]

That doesn't even answer the question.  Just seems like trolling to me. 

And aside from the fact that the poster seems to have missed the point of DT altogether if he thinks they are trying to garner a "mainstream audience" or if he thinks long songs are somehow not a good thing, referring to the band's image as "ridiculous" or saying the singer sings like "Cindi Lauper" are just plain insulting and is not in keeping with the forum rules.  This is an informal warning.

[In The Name Of Rudess]

saying the singer sings like "Cindi Lauper" is just plain insulting and is not in keeping with the forum rules.

Comparing people to Cindi Lauper is now a bannable offense..... I like this place 

Poor Cindi though

Would comparing artists to DT be a bannable offense on the Cindi Lauper forums? Hmm... 

[Prog Snob]

[lovethedrake]

You serious?  Trolling?   DT is arguably my favorite band and definitely top 3.... I am posting many of the reasons pointed out by my friends, family, and critics that suggest why they are not considered an all time great band. 

Do you know how many times I have played DT for people?  How many times I have tried so hard to get my friends to love them? 

Suggesting that I am trolling is absurd... I have the album pre-ordered and haven't listened to anything but DT for the last 3 months in anticipation of The Astonishing. 

I didn't realize we couldn't answer questions honestly here and had to avoid any criticism of the band...   

The band is cheesy, they make cheesy videos, they don't ever use humor in videos and hardly in their lyrics.   If you disagree thats fine but to suggest I am trolling is way off base.

[lovethedrake]

In fact if you go back and look at my previous post on this forum I chimed in and disagreed with the notion that DT is not an all time great band because they haven't innovated enough.   I personally think they ARE an all time great band despite their many flaws that I find and the many many many that have been pointed out to me by my friends or various music sites.

[bosk1]

saying the singer sings like "Cindi Lauper" is just plain insulting and is not in keeping with the forum rules.

Comparing people to Cindi Lauper is now a bannable offense..... I like this place 

Poor Cindi though

Would comparing artists to DT be a bannable offense on the Cindi Lauper forums? Hmm... 

Context is everything.  As the saying goes, it isn't what you say, but how you say it.  But if you don't care for the way the forum is moderated, there are plenty of other forums out there that may be more to your liking.

You serious?  Trolling?   DT is arguably my favorite band and definitely top 3.... I am posting many of the reasons pointed out by my friends, family, and critics that suggest why they are not considered an all time great band. 

Do you know how many times I have played DT for people?  How many times I have tried so hard to get my friends to love them? 

Suggesting that I am trolling is absurd... I have the album pre-ordered and haven't listened to anything but DT for the last 3 months in anticipation of The Astonishing. 

Terrific.  Then make a bit more of an effort to express your opinions in a way that is not insulting, and we'll call it good.

[Prog Snob]

You serious?  Trolling?   DT is arguably my favorite band and definitely top 3.... I am posting many of the reasons pointed out by my friends, family, and critics that suggest why they are not considered an all time great band. 

Do you know how many times I have played DT for people?  How many times I have tried so hard to get my friends to love them? 

Suggesting that I am trolling is absurd... I have the album pre-ordered and haven't listened to anything but DT for the last 3 months in anticipation of The Astonishing. 

I didn't realize we couldn't answer questions honestly here and had to avoid any criticism of the band...   

The band is cheesy, they make cheesy videos, they don't ever use humor in videos and hardly in their lyrics.   If you disagree thats fine but to suggest I am trolling is way off base.

So then answer the question I proposed to you. I asked you to expound upon your claim that they take themselves too seriously. You responded with a 24 year old video. Your claim was in the present tense. My guess is that you can't prove it because there is no evidence that supports your inane hypothesis. Maybe this video supports your claim. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qP6pmJdQZ0

[lovethedrake]

I don't like being put in the position of arguing AGAINST DT as I have spent the last 20 years of my life doing the exact opposite.

But here goes... 

I don't doubt that Labrie, Petrucci, Portnoy etc... have a sense of humor as evidenced by the blooper video you sent.   They are people and might even be very funny people.  I saw Petrucci speak at Guitar Center and he was a regular Jim Carrey up there.

However, I personally don't hardly ever see that wonderful sense of humor being displayed throughout their studio albums.   An example of DT displaying a sense of humor in their music would be "War inside my head" and "The test that stumped them all".  Labrie doing voices of the doctors is fun stuff.

However, that type of thing is few and far between with DT.   Listen to "Harold the Barol" by Genesis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpyj0o6Y8M4    Comparatively I think its safe to say that DT takes themselves more seriously.

Listen to Lola by the Kinks.   

DT takes their lyrical content very seriously and when a band does that they often come off as being cheesy.   A La Michael Bolton.

I don't know how else to explain it, its just my opinion.   I brought up the beginning of Surrounded as an example on an earlier post and I will use Along for the Ride as an example of modern day DT suffering from being overly serious and shmaltzy. 

I love Along for the Ride and Surrounded though... which was the point of my original post that nearly got me banned for "trolling" in that they still seem to make magic despite some, IMO, obvious flaws that I know put many people off.

I wouldn't be on this site posting if I didn't love the band with a major passion. 

[hefdaddy42]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

[lovethedrake]

haha fair enough.    Its pretty simple.   DT rarely uses humor in their music and its an aspect of music I generally look for. 

Despite the lack of humor, they are still one of my favorite bands because of how incredible they are as musicians.

That clear things up?

[Podaar]

lovethedrake,

If I may. I think there is a difference between taking their craft seriously and taking "themselves" too seriously.

Also, there's the "whole damned if they do, damned if they don't" element. Look at what happened with SC and BC&SL, they produce a few tongue-in-cheek or purely fantasy/story type songs (ITPOE, Forsaken, DEN, ANTR, TCOT, etc) and get a healthy dose of flack from the fans for being "cheesy" or too literal or not deep enough (bring back the obscure, spiritual JM lyrics). So we get more of that kind of writing with ADTOE and DT12 and now they're being preachy and once again "cheesy".

I don't know, I used to think I knew what most fans meant by cheesy but I'm completely buffaloed. That criticism has lost all meaning to me anymore.

-- edited for spelling

[lovethedrake]

Excellent point, I believe I worded that poorly.   They take the music very seriously, IMO... not themselves.

My brother is a musician who loves prog and got me into all of the music I know and Love.   

He has always hated DT and we argue about them all the time,  so I will be ducktaping him to a wall to force him to listen to "The Astonishing" in its entirety. 

Here is his response to my original post....    Yes its just one person's opinion but it sums up what I mean quite well:

"Your sense of humor comment is pretty spot on though. Zappa, for example, often exhibited incredible virtuosity - but would just as soon release an album of fart noises under the same name"

Not that I expect or want DT to come out with an album of fart noises... but I think you get the idea.

[Podaar]

It's probably not the spot for a discussion on Zappa, but he's a poor example I think.

His humor came packaged with some razor sharp criticisms that were very serious...to him. If he produced an album of fart noises, as you say, it would be for the purposes of showing how far society had sunk into commercialism and to prove a point that he could make money off of idiocy. Never forget, Frank had a great wit, but he knew he was superior intellectually to his audience. In his mind, the joke was always on us.

He took himself and his music way more seriously than DT.

[pcs90]

It's probably not the spot for a discussion on Zappa, but he's a poor example I think.

His humor came packaged with some razor sharp criticisms that were very serious...to him. If he produced an album of fart noises, as you say, it would be for the purposes of showing how far society had sunk into commercialism and to prove a point that he could make money off of idiocy. Never forget, Frank had a great wit, but he knew he was superior intellectually to his audience. In his mind, the joke was always on us.

He took himself and his music way more seriously than DT.

Could not have said it any better.

[hefdaddy42]

DT doesn't do comedy albums (except for Systematic Chaos).  There is nothing wrong with that.

[lovethedrake]

It's probably not the spot for a discussion on Zappa, but he's a poor example I think.

His humor came packaged with some razor sharp criticisms that were very serious...to him. If he produced an album of fart noises, as you say, it would be for the purposes of showing how far society had sunk into commercialism and to prove a point that he could make money off of idiocy. Never forget, Frank had a great wit, but he knew he was superior intellectually to his audience. In his mind, the joke was always on us.

He took himself and his music way more seriously than DT.

Interesting stuff... I honestly don't know much about Zappa and haven't really been able to sink my teeth into his music.   Would like to see some more of that "wit" in DT's music though whether it represents social commentary or is just funny to be funny. 

"you can eat my ass and ball's" being morse coded into ITNOG is another example of the band members showing a sense of humor but not actually displaying it in the lyrical content of the song.    So I think my verbiage of the band taking themselves too seriously was worded poorly, and its more about the music coming off as too serious.  Although, those videos in the early 90's still make me cringe.

[lovethedrake]

DT doesn't do comedy albums (except for Systematic Chaos).  There is nothing wrong with that.

Never said there is anything wrong with it.  Just think it contributes to notions of DT being a tough band to get into.