Track-by-Track Critique of the Live Albums and Videos

[chaossystem]

A lot of people don't like live albums, but I think some of the best versions of DT's songs have been played live. Sometimes they do something different, and sometimes the energy is just better. But of course, sometimes they fail in a live setting as well. If you don't like live albums at ALL, then this thread probably isn't for you. I just don't think they always get enough attention. There have been plenty of threads discussing entire albums and individual tracks, but most of those have been studio-only. Some will agree with my assessment of these performances, and some won't. Any rebuttal, like always, is encouraged.

Live at the Marquee / Live in Tokyo:

I Wish they had included more of the concert on the CD. I thought the LiT video version of Take the Time was very good, other than the fact that they cut out the audio where you're supposed to hear the audience singing. I love To Live forever, but this version could have been better, mostly because of James's chronic habit of SCREAMING the vocals and lyrics, when singing them will do.  But I love the instrumental jam that follows it. Same goes for Under a Glass Moon. I wish they had included Metropolis in the video. I really like this version of Wait for Sleep. I just wish it was longer. Also wish Learning to Live had been included in both.

CD-only tracks:

1) Metropolis-This is a lot of people's favorite version of this song. I think a least a couple of others are better. Somewhat overrated. Again it's James's shrieking, screaming, and banshee-wailing that ruins a lot of it. Also, the drum parts at the beginning and end of it are a little weak, but I thought Portnoy sounded great in the middle part of it.

2) A Fortune in  Lies-This is by far my FAVORITE version of this song! The energy on this one is fantastic, by far the best part of LatM.

3) Bombay Vindaloo-A somewhat underrated and overlooked instrumental. I wonder why more people don't like it, and also why they haven't played it since.

4) Surrounded-Not a whole lot different from the I&W version, but one song that really helped get me "into" the band. I love the way this song looks in the LiT video.

5) The Killing Hand-Not one of my favorite DT songs in ANY form. I never understood why they had to ad the term "Another Hand" to this version. Always thought that was kind of dumb. The only major difference that I can hear is that they extended the intro. I think this track might have been better as an instrumental, but this time it's not James's (or Charlie's) fault, although the vocals are somewhat muddy and hard to understand in some parts. The story just doesn't pull me in that much, except at the very end. Not one of Petrucci's better lyrical contributions.

6) Pull Me Under-A pretty decent version. Again they didn't really do much to change it from the I&W version, and that's probably for the best.

I'll try to do ALL of them, but for now, let's just talk about this one...

[Darkstarshades]

"Banshee-Wailing"
That made me laugh harder than it should have.

I don't like that live album, in fact, I prefer the Warwick 1993 boot that was published on Spotify, everyone sounds better overall.

I don't know a single shitty version of Under a Glass Moon, that song always seems awesome to me.

[hefdaddy42]

Live at the Marquee / Live in Tokyo:

I Wish they had included more of the concert on the CD.

I wish they had included Metropolis in the video.

CD-only tracks:

You do realize that this CD and this video aren't from the same concert, don't you? 

I never understood why they had to ad the term "Another Hand" to this version. Always thought that was kind of dumb. The only major difference that I can hear is that they extended the intro.

"Another Hand" is the instrumental piece at the beginning of this recording of TKH.  It was originally written to be a live bridge between Another Day and The Killing Hand.  On this recording, they included it with TKH.  And frankly, Another Hand is one of my favorite passages of music DT has ever written, and this is the best version of it I've heard.

[cramx3]

3) Bombay Vindaloo-A somewhat underrated and overlooked instrumental. I wonder why more people don't like it, and also why they haven't played it since.

I LOVE this instrumental, I always come back to this from this live album, the highlight of it for me.

[Setlist Scotty]

I Wish they had included more of the concert on the CD.

While they're not properly mixed recordings (from multi-track tapes), you're in luck since there are two soundboard recordings from less than 2 weeks before the LatM show that are well circulated in bootleg trading circles that are both complete. Both have Bombay Vindaloo, and what's interesting about one of them is that it's very different from what ended up on LatM. The shows I speak of are April 9 and 10.

edit: Now that I think about it, you'll also be happy to know that there are complete soundboard recordings of two other shows just before and after the LiT show. Neither of these has video (at least, I'm not aware of) but just having the audio is great. The shows are from August 23 and 28.

1) Metropolis-This is a lot of people's favorite version of this song. I think a least a couple of others are better. Somewhat overrated. Again it's James's shrieking, screaming, and banshee-wailing that ruins a lot of it.

What I find absolutely hilarious is that you're making comments about JL's vocals that were re-recorded in the studio - not in the live setting! So his shrieking, screaming and banshee-wailing was intended.   

3) Bombay Vindaloo-A somewhat underrated and overlooked instrumental. I wonder why more people don't like it, and also why they haven't played it since.

I think it was intended to just be a live thing for that particular time. I don't think they ever intended for it to be viewed the same way as Ytsejam, Erotomania, TDoE, etc. That said, I'd love to see it in the live setting as I really love it and would be curious to see what the current lineup would do with it.

I never understood why they had to ad the term "Another Hand" to this version. Always thought that was kind of dumb. The only major difference that I can hear is that they extended the intro.

"Another Hand" is the instrumental piece at the beginning of this recording of TKH.  It was originally written to be a live bridge between Another Day and The Killing Hand.  On this recording, they included it with TKH.  And frankly, Another Hand is one of my favorite passages of music DT has ever written, and this is the best version of it I've heard.

Hef beat me to it. Might not have been obvious to you since the more common (European) version of LatM has Surrounded before AH/TKH, but if you were to get the Japanese version of LatM, you'd have Another Day before AH/TKH (as it should be) - then it might make more sense. Definitely a cool piece of music that they did. I hope they'll consider doing something like that again in the future.

[pcs90]

The highlights of this  for me are definitely Bombay Vindaloo and Another Hand. Best version of AH that I've heard as well.

[jdprsaga]

live at the marquee is the first thing i ever heard from DT, I used to play it in loop for hours..
then my brother bought I&W and I  didn't like the studio versions for metropolis and pull me under. The live versions were so much more "metal and power!!"
ahh good times.. i was 12 years old at the time.

btw "Another hand / the killing hand"  is freaking awesome you don't dare to say anything about it!    hahaha I guess I'm just biased for sentimental/nostalgia reasons.

[chaossystem]

"Banshee-Wailing"
That made me laugh harder than it should have.

I don't like that live album, in fact, I prefer the Warwick 1993 boot that was published on Spotify, everyone sounds better overall.

I don't know a single shitty version of Under a Glass Moon, that song always seems awesome to me.

I didn't call the LiT version "shitty," I just meant that it's not as good as the I&W version.

[chaossystem]

Live at the Marquee / Live in Tokyo:

I Wish they had included more of the concert on the CD.

I wish they had included Metropolis in the video.

CD-only tracks:

You do realize that this CD and this video aren't from the same concert, don't you? 

I never understood why they had to ad the term "Another Hand" to this version. Always thought that was kind of dumb. The only major difference that I can hear is that they extended the intro.

"Another Hand" is the instrumental piece at the beginning of this recording of TKH.  It was originally written to be a live bridge between Another Day and The Killing Hand.  On this recording, they included it with TKH.  And frankly, Another Hand is one of my favorite passages of music DT has ever written, and this is the best version of it I've heard.

-Yes I know that London and Tokyo are two different cities in tow different countries. But they're both from the same tour, so essentially two versions of the same show. Ironic now that I think about it that England and Japan are both "island nations..." Anyway, maybe I should have said "I wish they had included more (or all) of the concerts on BOTH of the recordings.

-I didn't know that Another Hand was the title of a separate instrumental piece. But at least I'm willing to learn and admit that I don't already KNOW everything. By the way, I never said I HATED it... In fact, I wouldn't have minded if it was included in the LiT video.

[chaossystem]

I Wish they had included more of the concert on the CD.

While they're not properly mixed recordings (from multi-track tapes), you're in luck since there are two soundboard recordings from less than 2 weeks before the LatM show that are well circulated in bootleg trading circles that are both complete. Both have Bombay Vindaloo, and what's interesting about one of them is that it's very different from what ended up on LatM. The shows I speak of are April 9 and 10.

edit: Now that I think about it, you'll also be happy to know that there are complete soundboard recordings of two other shows just before and after the LiT show. Neither of these has video (at least, I'm not aware of) but just having the audio is great. The shows are from August 23 and 28.

1) Metropolis-This is a lot of people's favorite version of this song. I think a least a couple of others are better. Somewhat overrated. Again it's James's shrieking, screaming, and banshee-wailing that ruins a lot of it.

What I find absolutely hilarious is that you're making comments about JL's vocals that were re-recorded in the studio - not in the live setting! So his shrieking, screaming and banshee-wailing was intended.   

3) Bombay Vindaloo-A somewhat underrated and overlooked instrumental. I wonder why more people don't like it, and also why they haven't played it since.

I think it was intended to just be a live thing for that particular time. I don't think they ever intended for it to be viewed the same way as Ytsejam, Erotomania, TDoE, etc. That said, I'd love to see it in the live setting as I really love it and would be curious to see what the current lineup would do with it.

I never understood why they had to ad the term "Another Hand" to this version. Always thought that was kind of dumb. The only major difference that I can hear is that they extended the intro.

"Another Hand" is the instrumental piece at the beginning of this recording of TKH.  It was originally written to be a live bridge between Another Day and The Killing Hand.  On this recording, they included it with TKH.  And frankly, Another Hand is one of my favorite passages of music DT has ever written, and this is the best version of it I've heard.

Hef beat me to it. Might not have been obvious to you since the more common (European) version of LatM has Surrounded before AH/TKH, but if you were to get the Japanese version of LatM, you'd have Another Day before AH/TKH (as it should be) - then it might make more sense. Definitely a cool piece of music that they did. I hope they'll consider doing something like that again in the future.

-I recently became aware of a 1993 recording called Puppies on Acid, but I think there's two different versions, because one opens with Learning to Live, and the other opens with Metropolis. This is another show I might like to see a video of.

-Are you SURE that the screaming on that version of Metropolis is a studio overdub?

-Yes, Scotty, I am AWARE that Bombay Vindaloo is/was an improvised jam from (I guess) that show only, but I was just curious to know why they never tried to either re-create it, or do more of that kind of thing.

[millahh]

"Another Hand" is the instrumental piece at the beginning of this recording of TKH.  It was originally written to be a live bridge between Another Day and The Killing Hand. 

The alternate title for the bridge would then be "The Killing Day"...which would have been an awesome title, if something of a mismatch for the music (or else puts a really creepy spin on the music)

[Setlist Scotty]

-I recently became aware of a 1993 recording called Puppies on Acid, but I think there's two different versions, because one opens with Learning to Live, and the other opens with Metropolis. This is another show I might like to see a video of.

The bootleg opening with LtL is the Warwick, RI show Darkstarshades is referring to. If I'm not mistaken, the other bootleg is actually of the Milwaukee, WI (Summerfest) show. Both of which are radio broadcasts. But the recordings I'm referring to in my last post are all of much better sound quality. One other thing - there is video of the Milwaukee show up on Youtube, altho audience shot. AFAIK tho, there is no video of the Warwick show. Here's a link to the Summerfest show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28ZYf8CbAjI

-Are you SURE that the screaming on that version of Metropolis is a studio overdub?

Considering that the band has admitted all of JL's vocals were re-recorded in the studio, I'd say yeah, altho there's always the possibility that they left in a few small live bits here and there. Then again, you'd think that if they didn't want it a certain way, they would've made sure to have overdubbed them differently.

-Yes, Scotty, I am AWARE that Bombay Vindaloo is/was an improvised jam from (I guess) that show only, but I was just curious to know why they never tried to either re-create it, or do more of that kind of thing.

Well, I'd say it's halfway between a song and an improv jam, because there was a definite structure to it that was the basis, and then from there they improvised. As to why they didn't do it more, I haven't a clue other than that it was just something they felt like doing then. Same thing could be said for the other instrumental/improv jam pieces they did for the last 2 weeks of that European leg of the tour, as well as the instrumental following TLF on the Warwick bootleg, Moon Bubbles, Slow Motion, Barfbag, the Awake Jam and the Gladiator Theme.

BTW, BV was played I believe about 6 times during that run of shows - it wasn't just for the Marquee show. And as I said, both the April 9th and 10th shows have BV in the setlist as well - the version on the 9th being very different (altho shorter) than what's on LatM.

[chaossystem]

I've seen that YouTube video of the Milwaukee Fest ('93) show. I don't get WHY they had Portnoy shoved back into some "cul-de-sac" type of area where you can't see him at all. Other than that it's a pretty good show.

I actually have a "copy" of Moon Bubbles, and I THINK they played the "Awake Jam" in the Awake in Japan show, so I've probably heard it.

I don't begin to understand why they would re-record the vocals for a live album like that. Why not make them sound BETTER, instead of worse?

[puppyonacid]

Another confrontational thread brought to you by Chaossystem....Just when you thought you knew how you felt about something!

[Darkstarshades]

He has some valid points.
JLB vocals are very poor considering its a pre-awake recording in studio. He has done much better and without studio tweaking.
Only part I like is his long note at KH.

[ZirconBlue]

I don't begin to understand why they would re-record the vocals for a live album like that. Why not make them sound BETTER, instead of worse?

What makes you think the live vocals were better?

[puppyonacid]

I think JLBs performance on LatM is one of his finest even if it was done after the fact.

[chaossystem]

Another confrontational thread brought to you by Chaossystem....Just when you thought you knew how you felt about something!

"Confrontational."

No.

That's what YOU'RE trying to turn it into...

[bosk1]

No, that was the tone from the original post, as with many of your posts.  Knock it off.

[chaossystem]

I don't begin to understand why they would re-record the vocals for a live album like that. Why not make them sound BETTER, instead of worse?

What makes you think the live vocals were better?

Maybe you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

I just meant that if they had him go into the studio and redo the vocals, why didn't it come off sounding better than it did, especially on Metropolis, somewhat on The Killing Hand, and even a little bit on Pull Me Under? I don't know what it sounded like before they "improved" it, but I don't think it could have been much worse. This reminds me a little of the way George Lucas had to keep going back and re-tweaking parts of the original Star Wars movies instead leaving them the HELL alone, because they were FINE the way they WERE!

[chaossystem]

No, that was the tone from the original post, as with many of your posts.  Knock it off.

"original post?"

You mean the introduction?

It's just OPINIONS, and anyone is free to disagree with me in any way that they see fit.

[bosk1]

You can post opinions without being rude and confrontational, and without making untrue assumptions about other fans.  Most of the several thousand other fans here manage to do that, and you can as well, or you can leave.  This is the same issue you have been warned about repeatedly on this forum by SEVERAL moderators, so this is not news to you. 

[fischermasamune]

I didn't see the OP as confrontational. I do, however, like the rerecorded vocals in Metropolis, I think they added a lot of power to the song. Matter of taste, we can say.

[chaossystem]

I would like to hear what it sounded like before the re-dub.


I never really thought that much of DT being a band that USED overdubs before I noticed how obvious it was in the Luna Park DVD.

Makes me wonder how much of ALL of their "live" recordings really aren't.

[Setlist Scotty]

I would like to hear what it sounded like before the re-dub.

Pretty sure that there's an audience recording of that show in circulation, so if you're willing to do some digging you could get your answer.

 

I never really thought that much of DT being a band that USED overdubs before I noticed how obvious it was in the Luna Park DVD.

Makes me wonder how much of ALL of their "live" recordings really aren't.

I think they all have overdubs to varying degrees. I've never done a true A/B comparison of all the songs, but not too long ago I listened to a few parts of the live cover songs on ACoS and played the same parts on the soundboard bootleg and there definitely were some changes. In this particular case, I think it's somewhat forgivable, considering the time they had to rehearse for the show, not to mention the cramped venue and everything else.

I don't think there's many overdubs on OiaL, altho I've never done any comparing of the tracks. But considering how badly JL's vocals are panned, I doubt they'd have re-recorded many of them in the studio.

No idea on LSFNY, altho a friend of mine at the show said JP screwed up a solo in ACoS and there's no mistakes in the official live recording, so that was fixed.

L@B - JR's rig went down right at the beginning of the show, so most of the keys in AIA were redone in the studio. Not sure how much else was done, but given some of the comments about it not being a particularly great performance (especially for JL), I'd say they were minimal.

Score - JP's rig went down during UaGM which was obviously fixed. IIRC, the orchestra also got out of sync with the band a bit which has been fixed. Otherwise, the band's performance at this show was spot on.

CiM - don't think there was much doctoring, considering the complaints of JL's vocals on most tracks.

[chaossystem]

I would like to hear what it sounded like before the re-dub.

Pretty sure that there's an audience recording of that show in circulation, so if you're willing to do some digging you could get your answer.

 

I never really thought that much of DT being a band that USED overdubs before I noticed how obvious it was in the Luna Park DVD.

Makes me wonder how much of ALL of their "live" recordings really aren't.

I think they all have overdubs to varying degrees. I've never done a true A/B comparison of all the songs, but not too long ago I listened to a few parts of the live cover songs on ACoS and played the same parts on the soundboard bootleg and there definitely were some changes. In this particular case, I think it's somewhat forgivable, considering the time they had to rehearse for the show, not to mention the cramped venue and everything else.

I don't think there's many overdubs on OiaL, altho I've never done any comparing of the tracks. But considering how badly JL's vocals are panned, I doubt they'd have re-recorded many of them in the studio.

No idea on LSFNY, altho a friend of mine at the show said JP screwed up a solo in ACoS and there's no mistakes in the official live recording, so that was fixed.

L@B - JR's rig went down right at the beginning of the show, so most of the keys in AIA were redone in the studio. Not sure how much else was done, but given some of the comments about it not being a particularly great performance (especially for JL), I'd say they were minimal.

Score - JP's rig went down during UaGM which was obviously fixed. IIRC, the orchestra also got out of sync with the band a bit which has been fixed. Otherwise, the band's performance at this show was spot on.

CiM - don't think there was much doctoring, considering the complaints of JL's vocals on most tracks.

-Audience recordings of live shows usually sound pretty awful. You hear WAY too much of the shrieks and screams from the crowd, and not NEARLY enough of the actual band.

-I can understand having to take the live recording into the studio and fix any MAJOR problems in the sound because of equipment failure, gear breaking down, microphones cutting out, etc., but what I DON'T understand is why the VOCALS are sometimes redone like they are on this ('93) version of Metropolis. The I&W version, and all of the OTHER versions I've heard seem to be at least a little bit better, at least as far as the vocal delivery is concerned.
I actually thought James sounded pretty good on LaB, other than that his VOLUME was maybe a little low in some spots.
However, if there was EVER a time when he/they should have taken it into the studio and redubbed at least HALF of the vocals, it would be on CiM.

[Setlist Scotty]

-Audience recordings of live shows usually sound pretty awful. You hear WAY too much of the shrieks and screams from the crowd, and not NEARLY enough of the actual band.

To a large degree, I'll have to disagree with you. Perhaps audience recordings from way-back-when, when mics weren't anywhere near as good as they have been, or the clip that someone records on their smart phone and posts on YouTube. But I'm speaking of recordings done by tapers who have spent some money on quality mics and who position themselves in the sweet spot or at least avoid the obnoxious crowds. Trust me - there are many awesome audience recordings out there. They may not sound as good as an official live release or even a soundboard recording, but many of them are still great sounding. If you dismiss audience recordings just because of that, you're missing out, IMO.

-I can understand having to take the live recording into the studio and fix any MAJOR problems in the sound because of equipment failure, gear breaking down, microphones cutting out, etc., but what I DON'T understand is why the VOCALS are sometimes redone like they are on this ('93) version of Metropolis. The I&W version, and all of the OTHER versions I've heard seem to be at least a little bit better, at least as far as the vocal delivery is concerned.

It's hard to say why, without asking the band themselves and I don't think that will be happening soon. Could be that he had a rough night or whatever. Plus, they didn't have the same extensive set of tools to work with back then. I mean, had auto-tune been invented by 1993? Whatever the case, it was the decision made; chances are, the vocals didn't live up to expectations and it was decided that it was better to just re-record everything instead of merely doing some tweaking to the live performances. Simple as that, whether you like it or not.

I actually thought James sounded pretty good on LaB, other than that his VOLUME was maybe a little low in some spots.
However, if there was EVER a time when he/they should have taken it into the studio and redubbed at least HALF of the vocals, it would be on CiM.

Well, IIRC, I think there had been some talk regarding the touching up of live recordings after the fact around the time of the Chaos in Motion tour. Keeping that in mind, as well as the fact that the video was going to be fairly "raw", they probably decided to match the audio, keeping it pretty raw and only doctoring major issues, if there was any doctoring at all.