Epics that you find overrated?

[npiazza91]

This topic is your chance to play devils' advocate and go against the majority (scary).  It seems that DT fans tend to hold a lot of the epics close to heart (and rightfully so), however, even thought I cannot speak for everybody, I am willing to bet that nearly everyone here has at least one popular epic that they don't necessarily care for.  I'll take a shot first.  What should we consider an epic?  I was thinking anything in the double digits, but I suppose you can use your own definition.

Lines in the Sand- I could never "get" this song for some reason.  The chorus seems odd to me and the whole song just never sat well with me.  I don't know.  I try listening to it about once a week and I just don't get it.

Illumination Theory- Not sure if this is considered popular enough to be overrated in my eyes, but I never really got into this song.  It sounds like a mess to me, a far cry from Octavarium, which I'm sure it's often compared to.

I may think of more, and if I do I'll post them here.

[Zydar]

Lines In The Sand and Octavarium.


Edit: Tuscany can be added too.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't consider LITS an epic, but I don't consider it overrated. Each to their own.

The obvious one for me is ACOS (where's Kotowboy?). It's only an average DT song, it's just long. Maybe IT, although I don't know how highly that's rated at this point. If LTL counts, then that one too, although that still has lots of incredible parts, I just don't think it's a standout from the album. I don't think any of the rest are overrated, more underrated if anything.

[bl5150]

All of em      I am not thinking of songs like LTL as "epic".   The only epic that I listen to sorta regularly is IT.

[CharlesPL]

Lines In The Sand

[BlackInk]

I would say Illumination Theory, but like others have said, I don't think it's popular enough to be "overrated".

The Count of Tuscany however is another story. It has some cool stuff in it, but it amazes me how popular this song is consider how terrible some of it is.

[Kotowboy]

I don't consider LITS an epic, but I don't consider it overrated. Each to their own.

The obvious one for me is ACOS (where's Kotowboy?).

ACOS sucks !

[Kotowboy]

I agree that TCOT can't be over-rated since it isn't rated all that highly to begin with. Even though I do like it.

[Train of Naught]

SDOIT there I said it!

[Mladen]

Lines in the sand. It's good, but I never went crazy about it. The guest vocalist ruins the chorus for me a bit, and there probably aren't that many glorious melodies or heavy bits to make it dramatic enough. I would also mention In the name of God, the chorus is rather cheesy and the verses lack originality, although I really love the middle section ("hundreds of believers" and the instrumental).

[hefdaddy42]

Since when is LITS considered an epic?

[jakepriest]

I actually only consider a few songs epics. Those would be ACOS, SDOIT, Octavarium, ITPOE and Illumination Theory.

Out of those, I only like Octavarium and ITPOE.
ACOS and SDOIT are a disjointed mess and Illumination Theory is ruined by horrible production and guitar tones.

[hefdaddy42]

I actually only consider a few songs epics. Those would be ACOS, SDOIT, Octavarium, ITPOE and Illumination Theory.

That makes more sense.  I could also see TCOT being counted.

[Stadler]

I'm with Hef, in that LITS is not an epic (though I agree it is WAAAYYYY overrated; Doug Pinnick ruins that song for me).   The most overrated epic for me is probably ACOS.  I like parts, but there are far better songs in the catalogue in my humble opinion.

[hefdaddy42]

As far as my knowledge of the general opinions of the epics, I don't think any of them are overrated. 

They are all rated pretty much where they ought to be.

[Enalya]

No, I've been thinking about it, but I simply love them all that much. 

[TheCountOfNYC]

I don't know about it being overrated as a lot of people around here don't rank it as highly as other epics, but the one that doesn't feel as grand and well thought out as the others would be In the Presence of Enemies. It has two problems going against it. One is that it doesn't really change its mood all that much. Octavarium builds intensity continuously. A Change of Seasons goes from balls to the wall metal to soft and mellow multiple times. The sections of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence all match the mental illness that they're assigned to. Illumination Theory and The Count of Tuscany both have a quiet section in the middle. In the Presence of Enemies stays heavy and dark for 25 minutes. The other problem is that it feels disjointed. I'm not trying to start the is it one song or two songs debate again because it is definitely one song, but it's pretty easy to tell where part one ends and part two begins even if it had a perfect segue from one track to the other like the songs on Scenes From a Memory do. IMO, A Mind Beside Itself works better as one continuous piece. Those two flaws combine make it the worst of the six epics.

[hefdaddy42]

I get what you are saying.  It is definitely epic-length, but it doesn't FEEL as much like an epic as the others.  It just feels like a really long song.

[jakepriest]

ITPOE does have a quiet section in the middle. The bass ambient transition and the first part of Heretic can hardly be considered "balls to the walls" metal the rest of the song is.

[pcs90]

Probably have to go with ITPOE. Part 1 is very good. Part 2 has a few good moments but they are short and basically all instrumental.
TCOT is hard to rate because I love the music of it, but don't like the lyrics or MP's silly vocals. I basically never listen to the original anymore, just the instrumental with the guitar solo stem mixed in.
I actually find several parts of Octavarium either boring or cheesy. The whole section with all the references to various bands and other things has been permanently removed from the MP3 of it that I listen to, as has that super long run section in the instrumental...sounds like a warm-up. The whole first vocal section just bores me, I really have to be in the right mood to listen to it. The problem is the rest of it is so insanely good that again it's really hard for me to rate.
IT is my favorite. I cut the ambient jungle sounds and part of the strings out of my copy and this makes it flow much more naturally. Of course my ratings aren't based on my edited versions because that would be unfair, but for anyone who has the software to do this kind of thing and thinks the middle part is too long, I'd recommend messing with it.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

As far as my knowledge of the general opinions of the epics, I don't think any of them are overrated. 

They are all rated pretty much where they ought to be.

Pretty much. ITPOE and IT I can't see as overrated simply because they're not even rated that highly in the first place. ACOS and 8V more or less deserve the praise they get.

[Pax]

Alright

Saying ITPOE doesn't change mood implicates you haven't even listened to the whole song enough times (that's like 5-10 for this particular song)
ITPOE pt 2 is like the most dramatic thing DT has ever done

After listening to whole DT discography lots and lots of times, and harmonically analyzing some of their songs (the ones considered the best by me and also the others), I can say with NO DOUBT that ITPOE is their most underrated song

On the other hand, I don't really see how someone can not like ACOS, but it's a different story, because I guess it's based on the taste, but liking/disliking ITPOE is based on how many times you actually listened to the song or how well musically educated you are to understand it, let's face it, it's the most difficult song to ''get'', it's the last DT song I started loving, and now it's in my top 3 (together with ACOS and Octavarium)

The most overrated DT epic in my opinion is TCOT. It's far from a bad song, but I find much more fanboys for that song than for many songs I'd say they're better than TCOT anytime. Intro and the middle ambiental part are amazing though, but lyrics and the ending (starting from ''could this be the end'' are so bad they make me forget how great those good parts were in the first place)

[hefdaddy42]

Alright

Saying ITPOE doesn't change mood implicates you haven't even listened to the whole song enough times (that's like 5-10 for this particular song)
ITPOE pt 2 is like the most dramatic thing DT has ever done

OK

[chaossystem]

I don't know how you would define "over-rated," some people just like some songs more than others. Also, I'm okay with calling a song that's over ten minutes in length an "epic." anyway, going by what seems to be the definition of overrated, I have to vote for Octavarium, mostly because of the first half, and Illumination Theory, mostly because that orchestral section doesn't belong, and it's not even a very original sounding composition!

[Crow]

6DOIT is not one song, no matter how much the band and all the fans want to insist it is. A lot of it isn't great either though there are still a lot of good moments, but it's way too long for me to ever want to listen to it, especially with how much of it could be cut out and the suite wouldn't suffer for it.

I'd say IT is overrated too but I dunno how loved it is and I haven't even heard it in like two years anyways 

[BlackInk]

Alright

*stuff*

I mean, I love ItPoE. And just like you, I put it in my top 3 along with Octavarium and ACoS. But still I disagree with your overall post, because this whole "people who don't like it don't understand it" thing that people come with is getting annoying.

Systematic Chaos came out in 2007. Do you think that people who were fans then haven't heard the thing 5-10 times? Shit, over the  years, I'm sure I've heard my absolute least favorite DT tracks at least 20 times. More than enough to decide that I don't like them.

People don't "dislike" ItPoE because "they haven't heard it enough" or "don't understand it", they dislike it because they are not the same person as you and me, and therefore will not like the same things, even after understanding every single note or word after hundreds of listens.

[Madman Shepherd]

6DOIT is not one song, no matter how much the band and all the fans want to insist it is. A lot of it isn't great either though there are still a lot of good moments, but it's way too long for me to ever want to listen to it, especially with how much of it could be cut out and the suite wouldn't suffer for it.l

Totally agree.  As a whole its overrated.  Lots of good components to it. 

If LITS is an epic, which is the first I've ever heard, then it is definitely overrated.  It is overrated as a regular song, too. 

TCOT might be overrated because of the terrible lyrics which almost ruin it for me. 

Other than that, I think they all are pretty great. 

[IDontNotDoThings]

IT is in my bottom 10 DT songs, but I don't really know the general consensus of it, so I'm not sure if I'd call it overrated.
8VM isn't bad, but not really up-to-par for the quality level I'd expect from an album-closing epic & I don't understand what gives it the recognition to be so highly regarded, so yes I'd call this overrated.
6DOIT is good, but doesn't really feel like an epic, just a very long song (it more-so feels like an art gallery of sections with transitions, it feels like one song but it isn't enough to make it "epic" in that sense).
TCOT is amazing, but the above applies.
& on the other hand, I find ITPOE to be underrated, easily in my top 3 along with ACOS & AMBI (or Erotomania if I had to pick only one of AMBI's tracks).

[Onno]

Illumination Theory. It has some great bits but it's definitely overrated IMO.

[BlobVanDam]

6DOIT is not one song, no matter how much the band and all the fans want to insist it is.

6DOIT is one song, no matter how hard any individual wants to insist it isn't. Whether you feel it works well as one song or not is entirely your opinion.

[SeRoX]

The fact that SDOIT is one song, so opinions don't matter. BUT it doesn't feel like a "one song" at all which is clearly an opinion. To me, it's just a sometimes boring sometimes interesting long song, nothing much more than that.

IR has its moments, especially JLB's vocals but it feels so disjointed and for that reason I can't enjoy it as much as people can.

So, SDOIT and IR are overrated.

[hefdaddy42]

6DOIT is not one song, no matter how much the band and all the fans want to insist it is.

6DOIT is one song, no matter how hard any individual wants to insist it isn't. Whether you feel it works well as one song or not is entirely your opinion.

This, good Christ.

I'm okay with calling a song that's over ten minutes in length an "epic."

Wow, DT sure have a shitload of epics.

Wow, so do a lot of other bands.

Come on, let's have some standards here, people.

[Train of Naught]

Honor Thy Father sure is a cool epic!

[Pax]

Alright

*stuff*

I mean, I love ItPoE. And just like you, I put it in my top 3 along with Octavarium and ACoS. But still I disagree with your overall post, because this whole "people who don't like it don't understand it" thing that people come with is getting annoying.

Systematic Chaos came out in 2007. Do you think that people who were fans then haven't heard the thing 5-10 times? Shit, over the  years, I'm sure I've heard my absolute least favorite DT tracks at least 20 times. More than enough to decide that I don't like them.

People don't "dislike" ItPoE because "they haven't heard it enough" or "don't understand it", they dislike it because they are not the same person as you and me, and therefore will not like the same things, even after understanding every single note or word after hundreds of listens.

I don't think you fully understood my point, perhaps because I didn't explain it well

The thing isn't about liking or disliking ITPOE, because that is a matter of personal taste. Those who didn't listen the song enough times and those who don't understand it are not the guys saying they dislike it, but the guys saying it's overrated, and if you say something is ''overrated'', you mean it's objectively bad, not subjectively.
There are many compositions/songs I dislike, but I get that they are objectively masterpieces, just not my cup of tea. Someone who studied musical theory will easily get that ITPOE is one of the most musically complex and difficult to come up with songs by DT. And he might dislike it because of his taste, but he won't say it's overrated (generally bad). I hope you now understand what I wanted to say.

[BlobVanDam]

Overrated isn't a statement of objective fact. It's just measuring the divide between your own opinion and the general opinion. If most people are of the opinion that a song is amazing, and my opinion is that it's not a good song at all, then in my opinion that song is overrated. There is no objective way to measure how "good" a song really is.
And there's no such thing as an objective masterpiece, just widely held opinion of it being so. Musical complexity doesn't make something objectively good or bad, just...... well, complex!