Under a Glass Moon - Lost Not Forgotten structural similarity analysis

[Stadler]

Pretty much. From its inception, this debate always sets off a spectacular failure of communication. It's either you hear the similiarities and thus are "stirring shit up that doesn't exist," or you don't and are thus "an ignorant, butthurt fanboy who won't acknowledge reality." Or some such.

Is there an option to be "an ignorant, butthurt fanboy" who is "stirring shit up that doesn't exist"?  I might go for that.  Sounds like it's more fun. 

(I'm kidding).

[Pax]

I haven't been replying since I started the topic, so here's the thing

I'm glad some people got it. I love both ADTOE and IAW. I love both songs I analysed, the analysis is not here because of some ''conspiracy theories'' and shit. I'm not saying LNF rips UAGM off and that the band lost their inspiration. The post fundamental, it has no intention of discussing anything other than the SIMILARITY. I noticed the similarity between the two songs, just like many others did, it was interesting to me, so I went deeper to analyse the stuff, and I found even more similarities than expected and I thought it would be fun and interesting to share. Period.

[Mladen]

Sorry that I immediately thought this was going to turn into another "lets bash ADTOE" discussions, I realize you had good intentions. As I said in my very first post, there's nothing wrong with the analysis itself. It is very interesting. But as other people pointed out, it's very often an excuse for haters to "stir up shit".

[Prog Snob]

I've always heard similarities between the songs on ADTOE and the songs on I & W. I would like to just completely ignore it and say it's because it's the same band writing both albums and of course you will find similarities in orchestration and feel. However, I don't find it to be the case with any other two Dream Theater releases, so it definitely holds water to some extent. It could really just be a case of them wanting to get back to that same feel of Images and Words, which is the album that put them on the map.

[emtee]

I don't mind the similarities because I would always rather that they use themselves for inspiration.

I sure wish I could have been a fly on the wall during conversations and during the creation though. I will always wonder how intentional
it was and what they all talked about and agreed on...or maybe disagreed on. As someone mentioned maybe it was set up as an
exercise to get into an I&W mindset. We will never know.

[gmillerdrake]

All I know is that those are two of the most bad a$$ solo's that JP has ever recorded. I really don't know which one I like better? They are both perfect IMO

[Dream Team]

All I know is that those are two of the most bad a$$ solo's that JP has ever recorded. I really don't know which one I like better? They are both perfect IMO

Yes!

[Kotowboy]

Pretty much. From its inception, this debate always sets off a spectacular failure of communication. It's either you hear the similiarities and thus are "stirring shit up that doesn't exist," or you don't and are thus "an ignorant, butthurt fanboy who won't acknowledge reality." Or some such.

Is there an option to be "an ignorant, butthurt fanboy" who is "stirring shit up that doesn't exist"?  I might go for that.  Sounds like it's more fun. 

(I'm kidding).

There is a 3rd option :

Acknowledging the possibility that they used the *form* of another song for a newer song and not giving a flying fuck about it because a FORM doesn't mean the music lyrics vocals or rhythms or

melodies are in any way the same.

King Nothing is very similar to Enter Sandman structurally but do they sound identical ? Nope. Not at all.

[Calvin6s]

I don't mind the similarities because I would always rather that they use themselves for inspiration.

incestpiration?  Hopefully they never try to use Erotomania or DT might end up in the INXS bandwagon.

[Lucien]

Pretty much. From its inception, this debate always sets off a spectacular failure of communication. It's either you hear the similiarities and thus are "stirring shit up that doesn't exist," or you don't and are thus "an ignorant, butthurt fanboy who won't acknowledge reality." Or some such.

Is there an option to be "an ignorant, butthurt fanboy" who is "stirring shit up that doesn't exist"?  I might go for that.  Sounds like it's more fun. 

(I'm kidding).

There is a 3rd option :

Acknowledging the possibility that they used the *form* of another song for a newer song and not giving a flying fuck about it because a FORM doesn't mean the music lyrics vocals or rhythms or

melodies are in any way the same.

King Nothing is very similar to Enter Sandman structurally but do they sound identical ? Nope. Not at all.

[Setlist Scotty]

There is a 3rd option :

Acknowledging the possibility that they used the *form* of another song for a newer song and not giving a flying fuck about it because a FORM doesn't mean the music lyrics vocals or rhythms or

melodies are in any way the same.

I think you're misconstruing what some people are saying. I could be completely wrong, but I don't think that anyone is saying that the corresponding parts are the same melodies, rhythmically or lyrically - I've never felt that way. But in terms of the general vibe or feel, they are similar - if they weren't, it's highly doubtful that people would've noticed the structural similarities in the first place. The biggest issue is the reasoning behind why the band chose to use those old IaW structural outlines for several ADToE songs.

There could be a legitimate reason for what led them to do it, but the fact that the band has remained completely mum on the subject is what causes some fans to suspicious of the reasoning. Had they come out and explained everything right off the bat (media catchphrase "being transparent"), it would probably take all the wind out of the sails of the conspiracy theorists, but they haven't, which leads to the debates we've seen.

[Calvin6s]

Let's put the guessing to rest.

Jordan made an iOS app that can listen to songs and spit out a new one based off the song playing.  At the time, it was Top Secret so Mangini was left out of the *song writing* loop until he was jumped in.

Robin Thicke hacked into the app and the rest is history.

[Stadler]

Pretty much. From its inception, this debate always sets off a spectacular failure of communication. It's either you hear the similiarities and thus are "stirring shit up that doesn't exist," or you don't and are thus "an ignorant, butthurt fanboy who won't acknowledge reality." Or some such.

Is there an option to be "an ignorant, butthurt fanboy" who is "stirring shit up that doesn't exist"?  I might go for that.  Sounds like it's more fun. 

(I'm kidding).

There is a 3rd option :

Acknowledging the possibility that they used the *form* of another song for a newer song and not giving a flying fuck about it because a FORM doesn't mean the music lyrics vocals or rhythms or

melodies are in any way the same.

King Nothing is very similar to Enter Sandman structurally but do they sound identical ? Nope. Not at all.

I was kidding, but I think you missed the point of the joke:   debates on songs are awesome; that's why most of us are here.  That's why I, for one, love music the way I do, because it is so open to discussion (why does THIS person LOVE that song, but that person HATES it?).   The SECOND - I mean, the literal SECOND - it becomes an ad hominem discussion about the person making the argument, it loses all relevance.   Whether someone is "butthurt" or not, whether someone is "stirring shit" or not, is completely, utterly and totally irrelevant to whether the songs are or are not based on a common template.   And as Scotty so eloquently said, as long as the band is mum on the subject, we have no other option but to speculate.   

[Madman Shepherd]

Pretty much. From its inception, this debate always sets off a spectacular failure of communication. It's either you hear the similiarities and thus are "stirring shit up that doesn't exist," or you don't and are thus "an ignorant, butthurt fanboy who won't acknowledge reality." Or some such.

Is there an option to be "an ignorant, butthurt fanboy" who is "stirring shit up that doesn't exist"?  I might go for that.  Sounds like it's more fun. 

(I'm kidding).

There is a 3rd option :

Acknowledging the possibility that they used the *form* of another song for a newer song and not giving a flying fuck about it because a FORM doesn't mean the music lyrics vocals or rhythms or

melodies are in any way the same.

King Nothing is very similar to Enter Sandman structurally but do they sound identical ? Nope. Not at all.

I was kidding, but I think you missed the point of the joke:   debates on songs are awesome; that's why most of us are here.  That's why I, for one, love music the way I do, because it is so open to discussion (why does THIS person LOVE that song, but that person HATES it?).   The SECOND - I mean, the literal SECOND - it becomes an ad hominem discussion about the person making the argument, it loses all relevance.   Whether someone is "butthurt" or not, whether someone is "stirring shit" or not, is completely, utterly and totally irrelevant to whether the songs are or are not based on a common template.   And as Scotty so eloquently said, as long as the band is mum on the subject, we have no other option but to speculate.

So if the band commented on it, case would be closed?

Hate to break it to you, but JP did address this in an interview and said the accusation was ridiculous.  I'm thinking it was maybe 4-6 months after the controversy broke. 

So, case closed.........?

[Mladen]

Provide the link to the interview and case closed.

[Madman Shepherd]

Provide the link to the interview and case closed.

If I get bored tomorrow, maybe.  Otherwise, happy hunting.  I haven't read it since it was first published however long ago. 

[Madman Shepherd]

https://www.guitarworld.com/lord-strings-shred-king-john-petrucci-discusses-dream-theaters-new-self-titled-album

Nevermind, here ya go. 

[Shine]

So John said there's no truth to the claim that certain songs from ADTOE closely mirrored songs from I&W.

I just can't comprehend how he reconciles this with the obvious similarities between these songs. Not even a slight nod to their structural influences. Does he honestly believe that songs like LnF are unique, or is he just trying to ignore the accusation?

[425]

LNF is unique. It is completely its own song, melodically, musically and emotionally. Whatever structural things you can point out, great and maybe that's legitimate, but when it gets to the point where you're saying that the song itself is not unique, that's absolutely wrong.

Plenty of artists repeat song structures. That doesn't mean that the songs that repeat the structures are unoriginal.

[Lucien]

LNF is unique. It is completely its own song, melodically, musically and emotionally. Whatever structural things you can point out, great and maybe that's legitimate, but when it gets to the point where you're saying that the song itself is not unique, that's absolutely wrong.

Plenty of artists repeat song structures. That doesn't mean that the songs that repeat the structures are unoriginal.

[KevShmev]

So John said there's no truth to the claim that certain songs from ADTOE closely mirrored songs from I&W.

I just can't comprehend how he reconciles this with the obvious similarities between these songs. Not even a slight nod to their structural influences. Does he honestly believe that songs like LnF are unique, or is he just trying to ignore the accusation?

Just because you think the similarities are obvious doesn't mean they are.  It's obvious that many, including JP, think they are not.  To each their own.

[Mladen]

https://www.guitarworld.com/lord-strings-shred-king-john-petrucci-discusses-dream-theaters-new-self-titled-album

Nevermind, here ya go.

Case closed.

[hefdaddy42]

https://www.guitarworld.com/lord-strings-shred-king-john-petrucci-discusses-dream-theaters-new-self-titled-album

Nevermind, here ya go.

Case closed.

Well, that's a relief.

[Mladen]

https://www.guitarworld.com/lord-strings-shred-king-john-petrucci-discusses-dream-theaters-new-self-titled-album

Nevermind, here ya go.

Case closed.

Well, that's a relief.

 

Of course, people can discuss the similarities as much as they want, it's still interesting. It's just good to know that JP addressed the issue so no one can put the analysis against the band anymore.

[ReaPsTA]

Question to OP - Can you go into the key signature stuff a little more? I'm curious what makes their keys unusual from a technical standpoint.

[BlobVanDam]

I thought he explained it pretty clearly, however I believe DT has used the scale/mode for a few other songs too, including Home, the instrumental section of ITNOG, and the sitar bit in Paradigm Shift. It's not too common, but not too unusual either.

[Prog Snob]

LNF is unique. It is completely its own song, melodically, musically and emotionally. Whatever structural things you can point out, great and maybe that's legitimate, but when it gets to the point where you're saying that the song itself is not unique, that's absolutely wrong.

Plenty of artists repeat song structures. That doesn't mean that the songs that repeat the structures are unoriginal.

This is pretty much how I feel. I hear the similarities but it doesn't mean LNF is a blatant rip-off of UAGM. Just look at their history. They have always given obvious nods to their influences in the music they write. What's wrong with writing some songs that have the feel of Images and Words? I don't hear rip-off or lack of originality. Go listen to AC/DC and then come back and complain about ADTOE.   

[ZKX-2099]

Under A Glass Moon

Lost Not Forgotten

[425]

That **might** be something approaching a valid comparison if one of the trucks was a completely different color and had different wheels or something.

[ZKX-2099]

You're being a wise ass, I hope.

[goo-goo]

Wow. Nice trucks. Wouldn't mind having one of those.

My only comment on this thread would be that I'd rather have DT 'copy" themselves (or get inspired by their OWN music) than by someone else's (i.e. Muse).

Carry on. 

[Darkstarshades]

LNF kicks Glass Moon's ass anytime.
Glass Moon is too short for me, and the only good part is the first prechorus.

[Calvin6s]

LNF kicks Glass Moon's ass anytime.

Please.  UAGM brought LNF into this world and it can take it out.   

[ResultsMayVary]

LNF is unique. It is completely its own song, melodically, musically and emotionally. Whatever structural things you can point out, great and maybe that's legitimate, but when it gets to the point where you're saying that the song itself is not unique, that's absolutely wrong.

Plenty of artists repeat song structures. That doesn't mean that the songs that repeat the structures are unoriginal.

Exactly. Someone here already pointed out (almost) every pop song in existence follows the same verse-chorus-etc structure.

[425]

You're being a wise ass, I hope.

Nope. The pictures you posted imply that LNF is the same thing as UAGM, just with different names (since that Chevy truck and the GMC are pretty much the exact same truck, just one is branded Chevy and the other is branded GMC). As I and others have continually pointed out throughout this thread, that is simply not the case.

They have very similar structures, so they are physically similar pickup trucks, sure, but the melodic, lyrical and emotional content are completely different, so one truck is red and the other one is blue, and they have different sets of custom wheels.