Criticism around the web of post-Portnoy DT

[Kotowboy]

On topic...I think people fail to realize that it's not the same band anymore, and that's okay. 20% of the band has changed. That may not seem like a lot but it really is. Comparing the two is okay, but not if your comparison is because you expect the band to be the same band as it was when MP was there. He was a major part of their creative process; and even if MM contributed as much as MP did previously, it would still be different because they're two different people.

It's like Dee Sniders gripe with KISS and Tommy Thayer. It would be great if KISS brought in musicians to replace Ace and Peter, but the problem arises because they are in essence playing the role of Ace and Peter. It's almost like people expect or want MM to BE MP. He's not. And I don't want him to be.

I can still enjoy DT, and all of the musicians and enjoy the new fork in their journey. I mean think of how much the band changed when Jordan joined. It was an incredible transformation. But at least they're keeping it real.

Only 40% of the band is the same from When Dream And Day Unite.

[Prog Snob]

I'm not surprised if some people refuse to give a chance to the new DT or dislike it just because of MP's absence, but those are just a small yet vocal minority. All bands have (ex-)fans who think they turned to crap when one member left or the band changed its style.

There is definitely a small group of those which I really can't understand.  Dislike it because you don't like the music, not just because of some drama that ensued. I'm not going to stop listening to something I love because one of my favorite members of the band left. It's like boycotting a product because of the owner's political or religious views. Shit, people (right wingers) were boycotting Starbucks because there was a rumour going around a few years back on the Internet saying that Starbucks refused to send coffee to the troops in Iraq. So people started this mass email saying to boycott Starbucks.  Meanwhile, the whole thing wound up being not true. So, yeah.  Just listen to the damn music if you like it and if you don't like it listen to something else. Forget the band drama. That's for the band to be concerned with, not this person and that person. 

[King Postwhore]

On topic...I think people fail to realize that it's not the same band anymore, and that's okay. 20% of the band has changed. That may not seem like a lot but it really is. Comparing the two is okay, but not if your comparison is because you expect the band to be the same band as it was when MP was there. He was a major part of their creative process; and even if MM contributed as much as MP did previously, it would still be different because they're two different people.

It's like Dee Sniders gripe with KISS and Tommy Thayer. It would be great if KISS brought in musicians to replace Ace and Peter, but the problem arises because they are in essence playing the role of Ace and Peter. It's almost like people expect or want MM to BE MP. He's not. And I don't want him to be.

I can still enjoy DT, and all of the musicians and enjoy the new fork in their journey. I mean think of how much the band changed when Jordan joined. It was an incredible transformation. But at least they're keeping it real.

Only 40% of the band is the same from When Dream And Day Unite.

He's talking about Portnoy leaving which is 20% of the band.  1 in 5.

[Kotowboy]

I KNOW

[hefdaddy42]

On topic...I think people fail to realize that it's not the same band anymore, and that's okay. 20% of the band has changed. That may not seem like a lot but it really is. Comparing the two is okay, but not if your comparison is because you expect the band to be the same band as it was when MP was there. He was a major part of their creative process; and even if MM contributed as much as MP did previously, it would still be different because they're two different people.

It's like Dee Sniders gripe with KISS and Tommy Thayer. It would be great if KISS brought in musicians to replace Ace and Peter, but the problem arises because they are in essence playing the role of Ace and Peter. It's almost like people expect or want MM to BE MP. He's not. And I don't want him to be.

I can still enjoy DT, and all of the musicians and enjoy the new fork in their journey. I mean think of how much the band changed when Jordan joined. It was an incredible transformation. But at least they're keeping it real.

Only 40% of the band is the same from When Dream And Day Unite.

He's talking about Portnoy leaving which is 20% of the band.  1 in 5.

Yes, and only 40% of the band is the same from When Dream and Day Unite.

Wake up, king.

[Kotowboy]

Wake up King. Time to take to your throne....











Don't forget to courtesy flush

[puppyonacid]

Yea but its only 20% less different than when Derek Sherinian left anyway - at which point it as only 20% less different when he joined in the first place.

[King Postwhore]

On topic...I think people fail to realize that it's not the same band anymore, and that's okay. 20% of the band has changed. That may not seem like a lot but it really is. Comparing the two is okay, but not if your comparison is because you expect the band to be the same band as it was when MP was there. He was a major part of their creative process; and even if MM contributed as much as MP did previously, it would still be different because they're two different people.

It's like Dee Sniders gripe with KISS and Tommy Thayer. It would be great if KISS brought in musicians to replace Ace and Peter, but the problem arises because they are in essence playing the role of Ace and Peter. It's almost like people expect or want MM to BE MP. He's not. And I don't want him to be.

I can still enjoy DT, and all of the musicians and enjoy the new fork in their journey. I mean think of how much the band changed when Jordan joined. It was an incredible transformation. But at least they're keeping it real.

Only 40% of the band is the same from When Dream And Day Unite.

He's talking about Portnoy leaving which is 20% of the band.  1 in 5.

Yes, and only 40% of the band is the same from When Dream and Day Unite.

Wake up, king.

Well Duh.  I get that but Temp was talking about the last change.  I know math.   I just can't spell.

[chaossystem]

On topic...I think people fail to realize that it's not the same band anymore, and that's okay. 20% of the band has changed. That may not seem like a lot but it really is. Comparing the two is okay, but not if your comparison is because you expect the band to be the same band as it was when MP was there. He was a major part of their creative process; and even if MM contributed as much as MP did previously, it would still be different because they're two different people.

It's like Dee Sniders gripe with KISS and Tommy Thayer. It would be great if KISS brought in musicians to replace Ace and Peter, but the problem arises because they are in essence playing the role of Ace and Peter. It's almost like people expect or want MM to BE MP. He's not. And I don't want him to be.

I can still enjoy DT, and all of the musicians and enjoy the new fork in their journey. I mean think of how much the band changed when Jordan joined. It was an incredible transformation. But at least they're keeping it real.

Only 40% of the band is the same from When Dream And Day Unite.

It's been a few years since this has happened, but still:

I can't count the number of people I've talked to who think that Images and Words is their first album, among other things that so many people are or were unaware of.

[bosk1]

MOST people don't know that Dream Theater has an album before I&W, so that should not be surprising to you.

[King Postwhore]

Wake up King. Time to take to your throne....











Don't forget to courtesy flush

I missed this!  I don't courtesy flush.  I'm mean like that.

MOST people don't know that Dream Theater has an album before I&W, so that should not be surprising to you.

I own it and I forget about it.

[SuperTaco]

MOST people don't know that Dream Theater has an album before I&W, so that should not be surprising to you.

They're missing out 

[Kotowboy]

Only two out of the original five remain.

They're both guitarists and they're both called John.

[Prog Snob]

Only two out of the original five remain.

They're both guitarists and they're both called John.

And they both can melt you with their minds. 

[PwnsomeWin]

I don't think the different sound is because of Mangini at all. You can definitely tell that SC and BCaSL were transitioning into that sound. Personally the new sound's a hit or miss for me. It feels a bit more mainstream. Which I normally wouldn't have a problem with (FII is my 2nd fav album), but it's not the same mainstream as FII... I guess 90's mainstream metal sound was different than 10's mainstream metal sound.

I probably worded that terribly, but my point is, I don't care for their newer sound as much. While there's been some cool stuff (Bridges in the Sky, Far From Heaven, The Enemy Inside) there's a good bit of songs that got old quickly (The Bigger Picture, Beneath the Surface) or never were appealing (Surrender to Reason, hate me).

[Bertie_Wooster]

I think Illumination theory should have been an instrumental.    The vocals kind of ruin it for me.

[King Postwhore]

I think Illumination theory should have been an instrumental.    The vocals kind of ruin it for me.

Wow!  What was it specifically about the vocals?

[puppyonacid]

JLBs vocals after the string section there gave me goosebumps on first listen. It's been a while since any DT song did that.

[hefdaddy42]

I think Illumination theory should have been an instrumental.    The vocals kind of ruin it for me.

That's a first.  Never heard this one before.

[Zydar]

Wow. The song that has the best JLB vocal performance in a long while?

[BlackInk]

I don't really like the vocals in IT, but making it instrumental would just turn it into a huge waste of space.

[AngelBack]

I don't really like the vocals in IT, but making it instrumental would just turn it into a huge waste of space.

I think the vocals are excellent given JLB's age.  Some of the higher notes do seem a tad too forced and that is understandable.  I listened to some fairly recent Kansas yesterday and boy, time has not been kind to Steve Walsh's pipes.  But it happens.  JLB can and has worked around it better than most.

[Skeever]

I've got to join the minority camp here - JLB's vocals on IT are fine until the high part. Whatever he's doing there, he's making it sound about 10x harder than it really is. Maybe he's genuinely straining to hit those notes, but I've always felt like the mark of a good player is that they make it look easy.

[RoeDent]

I think Illumination theory should have been an instrumental.    The vocals kind of ruin it for me.

Hang on...In your first post, on the IT appreciation thread, you say you don't like the instrumental, yet here you're saying you wish the whole song was instrumental? 

[King Postwhore]

That's such a small part of the song though.  It shouldn't be enough to discourage one from the song.

[rumborak]

I think the section in question is 100% intentional by James. That is, I don't think he's going for something he can't deliver. I'm not toooo much a fan of that particular section of vocals either (particularly the vibrato end), but I definitely feel it was an artistic choice by James (vs an unintentional delivery).

[TempusVox]

I'm not suggesting that the MUSIC is different per se since MM joined the band. What I'm suggesting is the energy and chemistry has changed. That's not necessarily a bad thing; but it's a different band. People who expect the band to be exactly the same album after album have the hardest time accepting this. It's not just DT. Bands change, and those changes while not always obvious do make a difference. Hopefully (for my tastes) the bands I enjoy are always looking to change, grow, or evolve. But even if they try not to, with a personnel change it's nearly a given, even if it's subtle.

[Bertie_Wooster]

I think Illumination theory should have been an instrumental.    The vocals kind of ruin it for me.

Hang on...In your first post, on the IT appreciation thread, you say you don't like the instrumental, yet here you're saying you wish the whole song was instrumental? 

The sting section goes on for too long.   Would have been better with some Jon Anderson type singing during it

[Scorpion]

I think Illumination theory should have been an instrumental.    The vocals kind of ruin it for me.

Hang on...In your first post, on the IT appreciation thread, you say you don't like the instrumental, yet here you're saying you wish the whole song was instrumental? 

The sting section goes on for too long.   Would have been better with some Jon Anderson type singing during it

And yet you wish the song were an instrumental? I'm afraid I don't understand you, sir.

[Skeever]

I'm not suggesting that the MUSIC is different per se since MM joined the band. What I'm suggesting is the energy and chemistry has changed. That's not necessarily a bad thing; but it's a different band. People who expect the band to be exactly the same album after album have the hardest time accepting this. It's not just DT. Bands change, and those changes while not always obvious do make a difference. Hopefully (for my tastes) the bands I enjoy are always looking to change, grow, or evolve. But even if they try not to, with a personnel change it's nearly a given, even if it's subtle.

True, but I do think the energy right before MP left was at an all-time low.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm not suggesting that the MUSIC is different per se since MM joined the band. What I'm suggesting is the energy and chemistry has changed. That's not necessarily a bad thing; but it's a different band. People who expect the band to be exactly the same album after album have the hardest time accepting this. It's not just DT. Bands change, and those changes while not always obvious do make a difference. Hopefully (for my tastes) the bands I enjoy are always looking to change, grow, or evolve. But even if they try not to, with a personnel change it's nearly a given, even if it's subtle.

True, but I do think the energy right before MP left was at an all-time low.

I'd say ADTOE was their all time low for energy.

[ariich]

I think the section in question is 100% intentional by James. That is, I don't think he's going for something he can't deliver. I'm not toooo much a fan of that particular section of vocals either (particularly the vibrato end), but I definitely feel it was an artistic choice by James (vs an unintentional delivery).

Definitely this. I think it's a decent enough section - I don't love it, but I don't dislike it either.

[Fluffy Lothario]

ADTOE would be my second favourite album of theirs these days, after SFAM, and ahead of 6DOIT and FII.

DT12... I don't have enough of an opinion on it to rank it against the other albums of theirs I'm not very fond of, but there wasn't a single song on there that spoke to me at all, which is I think an absolute first for me.

[RuRoRul]

People have been making the same kind of criticisms about DT material for a long time, I don't think it's anything particularly to do with the fact that it's post-Portnoy. It's just their opinion. For example to me someone lambasting elements of ITPOE or The Count Of Tuscany while praising the same elements in Octavarium, or considering SFAM god's gift to music while proclaiming SDOIT is uter crap, seems just as nonsensical to me. It is just their opinion, and while it's good to try to justify your opinion a little I tend to find that there's a very limited amount of explanation you can do before you get to a point where one person has one opinion and someone else has another. It's especially fickle when it comes to something like long term fandom of a band, since changing tastes, expectations and even nostalgia often play a role, whether we notice it or not.

As for post-Portnoy DT stuff, I think ADTOE is one of their best albums while DT12 is one of their most mediocre, but the drumming isn't really a big deciding factor for either of them.

[Skeever]

To a certain extent, I agree. But there's a huge rift to me starting with the albums the band have put out on Roadrunner. For me, it's not so much the Portnoy era. Score seems like the true end of an era to me. Systematic Chaos does not at all sound like the same band who showed up to play RCMH.