Why do people say MM is a machine?

[erwinrafael]

I think most of this discussion comes from the fact that MM isn't a core songwriting member like MP was. MP will have said during writing "hey guys, what if I, for the next few measures, invert the rhythm?". The rest of DT will have known " OK, for those measures it's about drums, so I'll just keep playing what I've been playing so far to not steal the focus ". With MM not having this role in DT, he is forced to play some polyrhythmic crazy thing under an already busy section. With the result that, unless you're specifically listening for it, you won't notice it.

Some of the best Portnoy drums are indeed in songs where he is the main songwriter. The Mirror, Finallly Free, The Glass Prison, This Dying Soul, Honor Thy Father, Constant Motion.

[Dream Team]

Everyone will have a preference. I'll answer with a question.

-How many memorable parts and fills does MM have on his first 2 albums?
-How many memorable parts and fills did MP have on his first 2 DT albums?

Exactly this. I&W alone trumps everything MM has done combined. MP is/was simply more creative and air-drummable, that is the be-all and end-all for me. I like Mangini too.

[Calvin6s]

To be fair to Mangini, at the time of I&W DT was creating the prog metal scene.  They were an original and the whole experience was a breath of fresh air.

A few decades later and prog metal sounds a bit more worn.

[erwinrafael]

Everyone will have a preference. I'll answer with a question.

-How many memorable parts and fills does MM have on his first 2 albums?
-How many memorable parts and fills did MP have on his first 2 DT albums?

Exactly this. I&W alone trumps everything MM has done combined. MP is/was simply more creative and air-drummable, that is the be-all and end-all for me. I like Mangini too.

If airdrummability is the end all and be all, Lars Ulrich is tops I guess.

[Prog Snob]

Everyone will have a preference. I'll answer with a question.

-How many memorable parts and fills does MM have on his first 2 albums?
-How many memorable parts and fills did MP have on his first 2 DT albums?

Exactly this. I&W alone trumps everything MM has done combined. MP is/was simply more creative and air-drummable, that is the be-all and end-all for me. I like Mangini too.

That's excessive to say the least.

[425]

To be fair to Mangini, at the time of I&W DT was creating the prog metal scene.  They were an original and the whole experience was a breath of fresh air.

A few decades later and prog metal sounds a bit more worn.

True, but as someone who got IAW in late 2012 and thus got DT12 less than a year later... It's still hugely in Portnoy's favor for me.

[rumborak]

To be fair to Mangini, at the time of I&W DT was creating the prog metal scene.  They were an original and the whole experience was a breath of fresh air.

A few decades later and prog metal sounds a bit more worn.

I would think you could have made the same argument for IAW, saying that prog already sounded worn by the time IAW came out.
Also, I think drummers like Gavin Harrison have proved that in this day and age one can still create incredibly fresh and memorable drum parts.

[Sycsa]

To be fair to Mangini, at the time of I&W DT was creating the prog metal scene.  They were an original and the whole experience was a breath of fresh air.

A few decades later and prog metal sounds a bit more worn.

I would think you could have made the same argument for IAW, saying that prog already sounded worn by the time IAW came out.

But the introduction of the 'metal' element shook up the prog scene drastically, unlike anything since then. Arguably, a new genre spawned out of Dream Theater, which has been thoroughly explored in the following 25 years by many, without any radical changes.

Also, I think drummers like Gavin Harrison have proved that in this day and age one can still create incredibly fresh and memorable drum parts.

I have an instructional DVD by Gavin, which I love, but other than that, I have a hard time of finding actual music by him that I like. Could you recommend me an album where he best displays some 'fresh and memorable drum parts'?

[rumborak]

I take it you have listened to Porcupine Tree? For example, the beat under The Sound Of Muzak, to me, stands out as one of the best prog drum rhythms of the last two decades or so. His drumming on Anesthetize is nothing short of brilliant also.

[Kotowboy]

^ Those two examples 

Always loved that album for drums & Gavin Harrison is fantastic. Amazing feel & groove. Plus his Sonor's sound gorgeous.

[Prog Snob]

To be fair to Mangini, at the time of I&W DT was creating the prog metal scene.  They were an original and the whole experience was a breath of fresh air.

A few decades later and prog metal sounds a bit more worn.

I would think you could have made the same argument for IAW, saying that prog already sounded worn by the time IAW came out.

How so?  Are you just speaking of prog rock in  general because I doubt you could say that about prog metal circa 1992. There have been so many innovative bands in that genre since I & W came out.  What does become stale however are the DT clones.

[hefdaddy42]

I take it you have listened to Porcupine Tree? For example, the beat under The Sound Of Muzak, to me, stands out as one of the best prog drum rhythms of the last two decades or so. His drumming on Anesthetize is nothing short of brilliant also.

Those are the two examples I was thinking of.  Amazing.

[rumborak]

To be fair to Mangini, at the time of I&W DT was creating the prog metal scene.  They were an original and the whole experience was a breath of fresh air.

A few decades later and prog metal sounds a bit more worn.

I would think you could have made the same argument for IAW, saying that prog already sounded worn by the time IAW came out.

How so?  Are you just speaking of prog rock in  general because I doubt you could say that about prog metal circa 1992. There have been so many innovative bands in that genre since I & W came out.  What does become stale however are the DT clones.

I am disagreeing with Calvin, so I think the two of use are agreeing My post was supposed to show that the "stale sound" argument doesn't work.

[Sycsa]

I take it you have listened to Porcupine Tree? For example, the beat under The Sound Of Muzak, to me, stands out as one of the best prog drum rhythms of the last two decades or so. His drumming on Anesthetize is nothing short of brilliant also.

Yeah, I tried PC a couple of times, but they are often too mellow and atmospheric for my taste, even though I was positive there were some gems to discover. Anesthetize was right up my street, what an enormously fun song. Thanks!

[Prog Snob]

To be fair to Mangini, at the time of I&W DT was creating the prog metal scene.  They were an original and the whole experience was a breath of fresh air.

A few decades later and prog metal sounds a bit more worn.

I would think you could have made the same argument for IAW, saying that prog already sounded worn by the time IAW came out.

How so?  Are you just speaking of prog rock in  general because I doubt you could say that about prog metal circa 1992. There have been so many innovative bands in that genre since I & W came out.  What does become stale however are the DT clones.

I am disagreeing with Calvin, so I think the two of use are agreeing My post was supposed to show that the "stale sound" argument doesn't work.

I see now.  Then yes, I do agree. 

[Kotowboy]

I like Gavin Harrison more than Both Mangini AND Portnoy.

[DTFANATIC]

It's not that I don't like MM's playing. I prefer Mike Portnoy because Portnoy had more to offer in terms of diversity, technicality, and creativeness. Mike Portnoy put a lot into his playing, and helped give DT's songs personality.

[BlackInk]

It's not that I don't like MM's playing. I prefer Mike Portnoy because Portnoy had more to offer in terms of diversity, technicality, and creativeness. Mike Portnoy put a lot into his playing, and helped give DT's songs personality.

I agree about the diversity and creativity, but Mangini seems to be ahead in terms of technicality.

[Kotowboy]

Mike Mangini is unquestionably and demonstrably more technical than Portnoy.

I bet Mangini could go 2 albums without playing the same fill twice.

On Portnoy's last couple of Dt albums you could almost predict what fill was coming up next.

[Voices]

Mike Mangini is unquestionably and demonstrably more technical than Portnoy.

I bet Mangini could go 2 albums without playing the same fill twice.

On Portnoy's last couple of Dt albums you could almost predict what fill was coming up next.

Totally this. Even in the newer projects he's been working on (A7X, Adrenaline Mob, Winery Dogs and Flying Colors), you can hear MP revisiting things he did back in DT.
MP is more dynamic in his playing, but MM is way more technical and has more resources to do what he has in mind.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

MP may be repeating himself quite a bit lately, but I still find his drumming much more enjoyable to listen to.

[bosk1]

On Portnoy's last couple of Dt albums you could almost predict what fill was coming up next.

I have never understood this criticism, and I don't think I ever will.  Not sure why this should ever be a problem.

[rumborak]

Well, predictability is not exactly progressive...

[TheCountOfNYC]

On Portnoy's last couple of Dt albums you could almost predict what fill was coming up next.

I have never understood this criticism, and I don't think I ever will.  Not sure why this should ever be a problem.

Me neither. Fundamentally there are only so many fills you can do, that a player is capable of, and that sound good. After so many years of playing and so many songs like Finally Free, eventually you'll run out of ideas.

[rumborak]

That's like saying I could never learn a different programming language than the ones I learned years ago.

[Calvin6s]

That's like saying I could never learn a different programming language than the ones I learned years ago.

No.  I think it is more like being able to recognize the style of a programmer after they've been around for awhile, are very well known for what they do (so lots of people observing) and then tend to repeat what has worked for them in the past, but just adapt it to the current programming request.

When you first discover somebody, everything they do is new.  They had a couple of decades to build up their style.  Now you are hearing them all the time via live and studio releases.  They are learning new things, but because you are seeing it happen in real time, it seems few and far between.

[KevShmev]

I take it you have listened to Porcupine Tree? For example, the beat under The Sound Of Muzak, to me, stands out as one of the best prog drum rhythms of the last two decades or so. His drumming on Anesthetize is nothing short of brilliant also.

Hell yeah. Cheating the Polygraph is pretty sick as well.

[erwinrafael]

On Portnoy's last couple of Dt albums you could almost predict what fill was coming up next.

I have never understood this criticism, and I don't think I ever will.  Not sure why this should ever be a problem.

Me neither. Fundamentally there are only so many fills you can do, that a player is capable of, and that sound good. After so many years of playing and so many songs like Finally Free, eventually you'll run out of ideas.

One of the good things about MP is that he indeed has created a signature style. I remember that I once heard a Transatlantic song and I did not know it was them. When I heard the drums, my mind went "that sounds like Mike Portnoy," and it was! I guess where the criticism is coming from is the observation that if you go back to the early discography of Dream Theater, the "Portnoy-isms" are already there. If you go back to Metropolis Part 1, A Change of Seasons, Peruvian Skies, and Trial Of Tears, you get an almost complete inventory of the Portnoy-isms that combine into different permutations in the next set of albums.

Mike Mangini, despite his age, never had the chance to develop a signature sound until now. He has tons of ideas on drum orchestration, polyrhythms, limb independence, that us MM fans usually only had access in his drum clinic videos. But because he never had a full-time band, he never really got to expand on his ideas in the form of recorded music. He had albums with Steve Vai, Annihilator, and James Labrie, and most of them really just utilized his "machine gun" drum skills, based on hard-hitting straight up rock drumming and tremendous hand speed. I'm pretty sure MM is still finding his style now that he is in a full-time band. The difference in playing styles in ADTOE and the Dream Theater album is a sign of him slowly finding his distinct musical expression. In DT the album, we get to hear some musical ideas he used to expound in drum clinics come to life: orchestrating drums to highlight what others players are doing, some snippets of polyrhythms, distinct ways of combining time signatures, hand speed and limb independence being used purposively, the "stereo" effect of using two hi-hats and rides, etc. These are "Mangini-isms" that really surfaced only in the Dream Theater album. As MM fiurther discovers his own voice, and the other DT members learn to play and write around that voice as it develops, I am pretty sure we would find more exciting drumming in the coming albums. Dream Theater is not MM unleashed (a very unfortunate PR hyperbole), it's MM starting to find a distinct playing style.

[The Stray Seed]

^ Veeeery good point you made there =D Nice post! 

[erwinrafael]

Thanks. Being an MM fan from the Extreme days, I tend to view MM in the context he is in. He is different from MP, and he brings something different to the table. While I understand that preferring MP's playing is indeed a matter of taste, sometimes the blanket statement that MM has never drummed anything that comes close to what MP did in Images and Words is a bit too...extreme? Isn't this drumming in Lost Not Forgotten awesome enough?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCaFBe0QMuk

I mean, really? Is that machine-like and simple? Is that not musical yet? The work on the bass drums alone is jaw dropping for me, and so headbang inducing.

Here's Mike doing Breaking All Illusions in a substantially reduced kit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J88z-SnExs8

Nothing at all memorable in the drumming in that song? I would be hard-pressed to believe that anybody would listen to that and not even remember any of the drumming in that song.

Or his best drumming performance in ADTOE, Bridges in the Sky:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1ZH_4YkaNo

For Dream Theater (the album) songs, I think Breaking the Fourth Wall is a good enough representation of what MM's drumming actually sounds like when it is produced well. And if you compare the the BtFW drumming and these samples from ADTOE, you would find that MM is indeed developing a more distinct style that is applying now more of the concepts he used to teach in his drum lessons.

[The Stray Seed]

The guy is just great. Such a phenomenal drummer, such an extraordinary person!! He has so much to give and we have so much to learn from him, not just from a musical point of view. I am so impressed by anything he does or says, by the way his heart and mind are so focused. His technique is so much more than astounding, he makes extremely hard things look ridiculously easy!!

He is wise, smart, has an incredible talent for maths, but is such a humble person!!! I wish I will meet him, sooner or later, because you rarely get the chance in your life to know people that are so extraordinary from so many points of view, and I would really like to tell him in person =)

[TAC]

A couple of great posts there, Erwin.

[Podaar]

Here's Mike doing Breaking All Illusions in a substantially reduced kit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J88z-SnExs8

Nothing at all memorable in the drumming in that song? I would be hard-pressed to believe that anybody would listen to that and not even remember any of the drumming in that song.

I really like the reduced kit which dramatically increases his visibility to the camera. It lets a non drummer, like me, enjoy the performance more.

[devieira73]

I think that MM performance is too much analysed under microscope here. I know, I know, THIS is the place for that, but...
Let's see... hypothetically if Marco Minnemann (that personally I think it's the greatest rock drummer nowadays) was the DT drummer and Steven Wilson's last album was a DT album (?!), I guess many people here would judging his performance generic or with lack of inspiration (which of course I don't think so). And I'm saying that (maybe it's a wrong perception), because on that album thread, although many are praising the album, I didn't see any comments about the drumming on it.
The point is: I think, in general way, with DT, the expectations are enormously high and it is very difficulty to the band to satisfy that, even more to MM (and, if it was the case, to Marco Minneman, Gavin Harrison etc) that will always be the substitute for a drum legend.
Another interesting thing is that the "MM's defenders" almost always defend him explaining "why" his drumming is so cool. And, although I'm a drummer too (of very basic level), I appreciate his drumming with no mathematical analisys. In songs like Bridges in the sky, Lost Not Forgotten, The enemy inside, The looking glass (my personal favorite of all), or in parts of Surrender to reason (solo section), Behind the Veil (the first third), Outcry (solo section), Breaking All Illusions (soft solo section) I heard the drumming and just "feel" - wow, this is very cool! However, I do agree that MM is still in need for a really good drum sound on DT albuns and maybe this is not helping to a better appreciation of his work.

[bosk1]

Mike Mangini, despite his age, never had the chance to develop a signature sound until now. He has tons of ideas on drum orchestration, polyrhythms, limb independence, that us MM fans usually only had access in his drum clinic videos. But because he never had a full-time band, he never really got to expand on his ideas in the form of recorded music. He had albums with Steve Vai, Annihilator, and James Labrie, and most of them really just utilized his "machine gun" drum skills, based on hard-hitting straight up rock drumming and tremendous hand speed. I'm pretty sure MM is still finding his style now that he is in a full-time band. The difference in playing styles in ADTOE and the Dream Theater album is a sign of him slowly finding his distinct musical expression. In DT the album, we get to hear some musical ideas he used to expound in drum clinics come to life: orchestrating drums to highlight what others players are doing, some snippets of polyrhythms, distinct ways of combining time signatures, hand speed and limb independence being used purposively, the "stereo" effect of using two hi-hats and rides, etc. These are "Mangini-isms" that really surfaced only in the Dream Theater album. As MM fiurther discovers his own voice, and the other DT members learn to play and write around that voice as it develops, I am pretty sure we would find more exciting drumming in the coming albums. Dream Theater is not MM unleashed (a very unfortunate PR hyperbole), it's MM starting to find a distinct playing style.

I think that might be a big part of it.  But I think an equally important factor was simply that, being the "new guy" in the band, he was rightly cautious about deviating too far from DT's sound in the beginning.  His comfort in breaking away from that and just being himself will obviously grow the longer he is in the band.