Rank the albums based on accessibility

[npiazza91]

Which DT album is most accessible for someone coming in from a genre other than prog.  They aren't used to long song and aren't used to odd time signatures, stuff like that.  They are coming straight from radio friendly songs, rock, pop etc...  Keep in mind, the casual listener considers 5 minutes to be a long song.  Here's my ranking:

1. Images and Words- True, the 8:30 Pull Me Under might seem too ambitious, and may cause them to skip, but Another Day could suck them in, and despite TTT being 8 and a half minutes also, it's catchy and may also suck them in.  Surrounded is another accessible song, though I admit the latter half of the album may be a bit of a shock.

2. Octavarium- Again, the 8:30 Root of all Evil may put some people off, but there's more than enough radio friendly stuff her to work with.  The only reason this isn't #1 is because of the title track.

3. Falling Into Infinity- Yeah, technically the songs here are the most accessible, but the production isn't the most accessible and there's still a few long songs here.

4. Dream Theater- The most "modern" sounding of the DT albums, but it may be a bit too heavy for a casual listener.

5. When Dream and Day Unite- This one's weird.  The production is off and there are a few long songs here, but overall it's pretty accessible compared to DT's other stuff.

6. Scenes From a Memory- This is a tough one.  The story line is tough to follow, but I'm sure a casual listener wouldn't care about it too much.  There are long songs here and it's pretty scattered, so this is not the recommended first choice.

7. A Dramatic Turn of Events- This one has a good sound, but it's tough to get into due to the long nature of the songs themselves.

8. Awake- This is a dark album and it's very proggy, arguably more proggy than most of what they've done.  Casual listeners may not "get it" and overall it's not the first album you should show somebody.

9. Systematic Chaos- The first song is sure to turn people off: 9 minutes with the first 5 not having any vocals.  The main saving grace is Forsaken, which can be easily accessed.  Still, this album's inconsistency combined with long songs here and there make it tough to get right away.

10. Train of Thought- The heaviness of this one is a sure fire way to turn someone off.  Not to mention these songs are very long for a casual listener.  If the person likes metal, this may be a better idea, but in general, keep a new listener far away.

11. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence- This album is a very advanced prog album to sit through.  I'll admit, for the longest time I completely shunned every song on Disc 1 except for Glass Prison and I was already a prog fan prior to getting this album.  The songs don't seem very enticing at first for a casual, and the song lengths are sure to make their head spin.

12. Black Clouds and Silver Linings- Yeah, the mother of epic tracks.  Wither is the only break you have here.  This album is a casual's nightmare.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm finding it hard to rank them, but I would conclusively say that FII is #1.

[Flacracker]

Hells Kitchen and Lines in the Sand are the best songs to introduce Dream Theater to someone. With HK you get some bad ass guitar shredding. LitS has an awesome base lane, features the keyboard prominently, has that little bit of dissonance at the beginng, and the vocals are great. The pair features all of the great things about DT. So FII is great. Also, Take Away My Pain is cool.

[The Letter M]

I'm finding it hard to rank them, but I would conclusively say that FII is #1.

This. To me, I would say, from most accessible to least would be:
FII
8VM
DT12
Awake
IAW
TOT
SC
SFAM
ADTOE
SDOIT
BC&SL
WDADU

The last four are pretty difficult, considering the debut is a bit of a mess with regards to production and having a different vocalist than the rest of the discography, while the other three are albums full of longer tracks, which might turn away a casual listener who isn't used to prog's excesses (then again, if you're trying to get into DT, you should expect these kinds of long tracks - it's like getting someone into pop music and not expecting them to hear the same four chords over and over and over...).

FII and 8VM stand at top because of the shorter track lengths and the production values, and DT12 to some degree as well. The songs on these three albums have some Single-Power, and even some songs on Awake would fall in that category too, like Side 1 and Side 3. Awake had two singles, after all! IAW would be right after because they did have a hit single with "Pull Me Under". TOT and SC have the newer metal sound that some metal fans might go for, but the track lengths might deter some newcomers, and SFAM beigna  concept album might turn some away, so they sit in the middle.

-Marc.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Falling Into Infinity
Octavarium
Dream Theater
Images and Words
Train of Thought
A Dramatic Turn of Events
Awake
Systematic Chaos
When Dream and Day Unite
Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes From a Memory

[KevShmev]

I can't say FII is the most accessible simply because the first 13 minutes of it features about eight minutes of New Millennium, which is not a song I think would immediately appeal to someone who has never heard DT, and then five minutes of You Not Me, which is, well, not good.  Most casual fans will have a hard time getting past a rough first 13 minutes. 

To me, I&W is easily the most accessible.

[Zyzzyva17]

I mostly agree with these rankings, but I want to make a case for the accessibility of ADTOE. While there are some long tracks, the shorter ones are among DT's most accessible songs, and even the longer ones are comprehensible despite their complexity. (Exceptions being the Outcry instrumental section and the "tickle section")

[?]

Whether something is accessible to someone or not depends on their tastes and while a youngster could think I&W sounds dated and cheesy. A metalhead can get hooked on TOT while someone else thinks it's way too heavy, etc.

Overall, I think Octavarium might be the most accessible album to the average joe, because of the songs are fairly straightforward and melodic. Panic Attack is the only full-on metal song, (TROAE is more hard rock-sounding to my ears) and the title-track is at the very end of the album, so the listening experience is a lot easier than BC&SL, for example. FII and ADTOE could be good choices as well, because they show many different sides of the band while staying melodic.

[Rodni Demental]

Not in terms of personal rankings, but my personal opinion on accessibility.

1. Train of Thought
2. Dream Theater
3. Falling into Infinity
4. Octavarium
5. Systematic Chaos
6. Black Clouds & Silver Linings
7. Scenes From a Memory
8. A Dramatic Turn of Events
9. Images & Words
10. Awake
11. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
12. When Dream and Day Unite

Personally I'd say ToT is probably the most accessible coming from a Metal background, which is why I'm inclined towards the 'heavier' albums being more accessible. The ones at the bottom contain some generally longer songs that took a while to grow on me so I wouldn't rank them high in terms of accessibility, even if I'd rank them much higher in terms of quality. Around the middle I'm not so sure cause I could easily shift those around. But SFAM for example, has some accessible content, but the whole concept thing would probably be offputting to some casual listeners.

Anyway, I'd argue that most DT fans aren't 'casual listeners' or if they are, they still have had a pretty dedicated phase. I think people that are drawn to this music are inclined to appreciate the more complex aspects of the music and therefore not be effected by the 'accessibility' of the music. In fact, the idea of the way we're describing inaccessibility might almost paradoxically be an appealing feature of band to some degree, if that makes any sense at all. 

[Nearmyth]

I don't really feel like ranking them all but...

Top 3 I feel would be

1. Dream Theater
2. Octavarium
3. Falling Into Infinity

Bottom 3 would be like

10. Images And Words
11. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
12. WDADU

Reasoning: Those top 3 have more hooks than any other DT album. DT12 is straight up commercial (save STR and IT), Octavarium has some of Dream Theater's most well known songs, and FII is just poppy sounding to me and easy to listen to.

I&W I feel can be a brick wall to get into if you just take the average metal/commercial music listener. It's very contrasting to albums like, say, SC or BC&SL. There's a huge jump in writing style and sound when it comes to that. I feel like I&W would resonate the most with someone who has a prog background. We're talking about "someone coming in from a genre that isn't prog," after all, and I&W is probably their proggiest album.

SDOIT for obvious reasons, it's very obscure and ambitious. And WDADU, well... I myself have still not "gotten into" that one.

[npiazza91]

I&W was the first DT album I heard and it was a breath of fresh air.  It wasn't hard for me to get into at all, but that's just me personally.  My second was Systematic Chaos and it was hard to "get" for a while.  I'm thankful I started out with I&W though.

[Plasmastrike]

Kinda a silly question because accessible is relative. Accessible to who, my metal head friends? My parents? My rock friends? I guess I see what you mean though.

[Stadler]

Play 'em "I Walk Beside You" and be done with it.

Though I don't waste a lot of time trying to "convince" others to like what I do.  As with my daughter (who is 13) I expose her to the music and let her make her own call.   She's not really big on some of the prog (except for Pink Floyd) but she's becoming quite the expert and fan on the sort of "Kiss/Def Leppard" school of melodic hard rock.    For me, I just like that she adores music, any music.  The rest will come in time.

[Sycsa]

For people who like technical music, pop in Instrumedley from Live at Budokan. The looks, the sound, the performance will blow their mind, plus you can delay the often problematic introduction of JLB.

As for casual music listeners, there is no recipe, I listen to lots of DT in my car with my girlfriend, and her favorite passage so far (and she even memorized the lyrics) was "Day after day." No joke. She found it hilarious how contradictory the lyrics and delivery were.

I don't think mediocre songs like "I walk beside you" would work, simple doesn't equal accessible. Oh, there are two friends of mine who got into DT after hearing Pull Me Under, DT's greatest hit, so there's that.

[Randaran]

I came from a metal background comprised mostly of thrash and power metal, and ToT was my first DT album. I already liked bands such as Metallica and Maiden, both of which have songs that veer on the long side. The long songs on ToT were not offputting in any way. For the most part, DT songs follow typical song structure, with some twists and extended instrumental sections thrown in. I find that most people are not turned off by the song lengths, but by their structures. Many songs on both ToT and 8va are not too difficult to digest structurally, despite their sometimes seemingly overwhelming length. For this reason, I would say that the pair is among their most accessible, especially for someone with a musical background similar to mine.

On the other side of the spectrum is Awake. Most of the songs are rather short by DT standards, but they much more varied in structure. It is not an easy album for the uninitiated to get in to.

[bosk1]

Hells Kitchen and Lines in the Sand are the best songs to introduce Dream Theater to someone.

Hell's Kitchen is not something I would play for my worst enemy (figuratively speaking), much less someone I wanted to actually like the band.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Hells Kitchen and Lines in the Sand are the best songs to introduce Dream Theater to someone.

Hell's Kitchen is not something I would play for my worst enemy (figuratively speaking), much less someone I wanted to actually like the band.

Now that is a truly baffling statement.

[Stadler]

I don't think mediocre songs like "I walk beside you" would work, simple doesn't equal accessible.

And thus the reason why I don't waste any time in trying to convert people to what I like.  "I Walk Beside You" is one of my favorite songs on one of my favorite DT albums.  Calling it "mediocre" is to me like calling Mangini an "average drummer".   If it was so easy to do, everyone would be doing it.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't think Hell's Kitchen is bad, but playing it for someone who's unfamiliar with the band, at most, all I can expect is, "Meh... It's all right," reaction. Definitely not the song you want to introduce people to. Just because it's slower and more melodic, and doesn't have anything overly complex, doesn't mean that "the common folk" will be instantly drawn to it.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Hells Kitchen and Lines in the Sand are the best songs to introduce Dream Theater to someone.

Hell's Kitchen is not something I would play for my worst enemy (figuratively speaking), much less someone I wanted to actually like the band.

I thought I was the only one on here who doesn't like Hell's Kitchen. Kinda relieved to see that's not the case.

[BlobVanDam]

Hell's Kitchen is amazing, but showing someone an instrumental to get them into a band with a vocalist is not a good idea. It's not representative, and instrumentals are the opposite of accessible for most people.

[Calvin6s]

As far as ranking the albums, the only thing I'm sure of is WDADU would be at the bottom for production and vocal quality alone.

If I wanted a new DT convert (which was something I did more in my youth), I'd take it on a song by song and person by person basis.  A whole album might turn them off.

For people that find metal and prog ugly, I've had some luck with the song Eve.

Trying to convert somebody that commonly responds "but I can't dance to it" is a lost cause.

[BlobVanDam]

Trying to convert somebody that commonly responds "but I can't dance to it" is a lost cause.

Or is it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCdedrXu1wI

[Sycsa]

I don't think mediocre songs like "I walk beside you" would work, simple doesn't equal accessible.

And thus the reason why I don't waste any time in trying to convert people to what I like.  "I Walk Beside You" is one of my favorite songs on one of my favorite DT albums.  Calling it "mediocre" is to me like calling Mangini an "average drummer".   If it was so easy to do, everyone would be doing it.

That analogy doesn't work at all, since in terms of technique, no one can call Mangini "average". He's objectively (and measurably, if you think of his world record) one of the most technically advanced drummers, whereas "I Walk Beside You" is just a song, and not a fan favorite at that. You're entitled to like it, I'm entitled to label it as "average", which isn't harsh at all, considering DT's incredibly strong output.

[Art]

Most people my age (at least my friends) got hooked by I&W so, that´s my vote.

[puppyonacid]

3. Falling Into Infinity- Yeah, technically the songs here are the most accessible, but the production isn't the most accessible and there's still a few long songs here.

Yea because the production on this album is way too awesome.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

I can't say FII is the most accessible simply because the first 13 minutes of it features about eight minutes of New Millennium, which is not a song I think would immediately appeal to someone who has never heard DT, and then five minutes of You Not Me, which is, well, not good.  Most casual fans will have a hard time getting past a rough first 13 minutes. 

The problem with looking at it this way is that in the age of digital music, people aren't necessarily going to "discover" an album in sequence, so this issue isn't necessarily going to apply to everyone (or, if you're showing an album to someone, you can always switch up the track order).

Other than that...tough call, in general. The most straightforward stuff is also the stuff that sometimes sounds a little less unique, which means people won't be thrown by it but they also might not see it as terribly interesting either. But it probably does end up coming out slightly ahead, I guess.

8V--It's not so much that the music here is more accessible than that on the next four, but the production values elevate it for most listeners, I'd think. Except the title track, of course (ironic that it's way above the rest of the album for much of the fanbase, but would be well behind it for many casual listeners).
FII--Sounds slightly more dated than 8V but still produced in a way that would be familiar to most.
DT--IT is a real thrower, two instrumentals, and the excessively heavy TEI, but the rest would work well.
Awake--A more accessible album than given credit for, I think. None of the mega-epics, songwriting's fairly lean overall, no odd production quirks. Or to put it another way, in the battle of nine-minute songs, would Voices offend fewer than TDEN? I feel like it would.
IW--Has the '80s feel and prog feel to it more than most; I'm not sure how that'd play out on balance, actually. Could rank it almost anywhere. Obviously it hit big back in the day, but the musical landscape at the end of the hairband era is far different than today's.
ADTOE--First two songs and TITL are accessible, the two ballads are familiar (if bland, at least to me), and it's modern. The rest is fairly impenetrable to casual ears, though.
SC--Some shorter, concise songs, and a modern metal punch that's familiar to at least a segment of the listening populace.
TOT--Grouped with SC. SC probably has more utterly alienating songs (two that take up 40 minutes), but TOT only has one really accessible one (AIA).
BCSL--Well, Wither's there, and TBOT is pretty coherent for its length.
SFAM--This is the album a casual listener doesn't get at all the first two times, then gets hooked on something else, comes back and wonders how they missed the greatness.
SDOIT--Just too experimental to sink in.
















WDADU--Forget the production and Charlie--some of the songwriting here is so jarring at first blush that you might as well play a Thought Industry record. There are just too many out-of-the-norm components for this to gel until it's thoroughly processed.

[the_silent_man]

SFAM--This is the album a casual listener doesn't get at all the first two times, then gets hooked on something else, comes back and wonders how they missed the greatness.

Personally, the first album I listened to was Octavarium, which I thought was good but didn't make me a massive fan, but when I heard SFAM the first time it blew me away and almost instantly became my favourite album. Before that I listened to stuff like Machine Head, Linkin Park, Bullet for my Valentine, Trivium etc - basically really mainstream metal. But SFAM really changed my outlook on music forever and I went on to discover prog as a whole.

It has a shit load of fascinating musical passages plus GREAT melodies, so it hooked me instantly But I&W I actually hated the first time I heard it. Couldn't get my head around it. Then I started getting into Under a Glass Moon and suddenly one day it hit me! Now I consider it a masterpiece alongside SFAM and Awake

[Sycsa]

SFAM--This is the album a casual listener doesn't get at all the first two times, then gets hooked on something else, comes back and wonders how they missed the greatness.

This is spot on in my case as well. I used to shut off SFAM after Beyond This Life, as the second part of the album sounded like a boring mess the first few times. Nowadays I'm thinking: "What the hell was I smoking back then, dissing Home, Finally Free?"

[Frosthawk]

Hells Kitchen and Lines in the Sand are the best songs to introduce Dream Theater to someone.

Hell's Kitchen is not something I would play for my worst enemy (figuratively speaking), much less someone I wanted to actually like the band.

Hell's Kitchen is actually exactly the song that got me into Dream Theater. 

[hefdaddy42]

The only correct answer is I&W, because that is their hit album.  Meaning, that is the one that we have the most objective evidence for non-prog fans being persuaded by, and actually buying. And one of the reasons that happened is that the average quality-per-song on this album is incredibly high.

That isn't the case for other, more seemingly accessible albums such as FII, 8VM, or even DT12.  Yes, they feature lots of shorter, more pop-seeming songs, but they aren't, in most cases, as good as the songs on I&W.

[JediKnight1969]

When Dream and Day Unite
Dream Theater
Octavarium
Falling Into Infinity
Black Clouds & Silver Linings
Systematic Chaos
Images and Words
A Dramatic Turn of Events
Awake
Train of Thought
Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes From a Memory
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

[Stadler]

I don't think mediocre songs like "I walk beside you" would work, simple doesn't equal accessible.

And thus the reason why I don't waste any time in trying to convert people to what I like.  "I Walk Beside You" is one of my favorite songs on one of my favorite DT albums.  Calling it "mediocre" is to me like calling Mangini an "average drummer".   If it was so easy to do, everyone would be doing it.

That analogy doesn't work at all, since in terms of technique, no one can call Mangini "average". He's objectively (and measurably, if you think of his world record) one of the most technically advanced drummers, whereas "I Walk Beside You" is just a song, and not a fan favorite at that. You're entitled to like it, I'm entitled to label it as "average", which isn't harsh at all, considering DT's incredibly strong output.

Respectfully, I think you missed my point.   

I was saying that of course someone COULD call Mangini average, if their criteria were such that that's where his strengths and weakness lie.  I don't consider him average, but - and I am not trying to start a war here, so let's let it go after the point is made - I do believe a lot of his "expertise" is merely physical exercises, in that it is replicable with time and patience in a way that, perhaps, John Bonham or Neil Peart's is not.  You've just chosen "technique" as the standard, and presumably you have chosen a standard for assessing IWBY.   I for one don't care about technique in and of itself (though the music I like tends to have a very high level of technique). 

[Sycsa]

I don't think mediocre songs like "I walk beside you" would work, simple doesn't equal accessible.

And thus the reason why I don't waste any time in trying to convert people to what I like.  "I Walk Beside You" is one of my favorite songs on one of my favorite DT albums.  Calling it "mediocre" is to me like calling Mangini an "average drummer".   If it was so easy to do, everyone would be doing it.

That analogy doesn't work at all, since in terms of technique, no one can call Mangini "average". He's objectively (and measurably, if you think of his world record) one of the most technically advanced drummers, whereas "I Walk Beside You" is just a song, and not a fan favorite at that. You're entitled to like it, I'm entitled to label it as "average", which isn't harsh at all, considering DT's incredibly strong output.

Respectfully, I think you missed my point.   

I was saying that of course someone COULD call Mangini average, if their criteria were such that that's where his strengths and weakness lie.  I don't consider him average, but - and I am not trying to start a war here, so let's let it go after the point is made - I do believe a lot of his "expertise" is merely physical exercises, in that it is replicable with time and patience in a way that, perhaps, John Bonham or Neil Peart's is not.  You've just chosen "technique" as the standard, and presumably you have chosen a standard for assessing IWBY.   I for one don't care about technique in and of itself (though the music I like tends to have a very high level of technique).

Hey, the only thing I did is call a song mediocre and you derailed the conversation into this pointless discussion about MM. I chose technique because it's pretty much the only aspect of a musician that is comparable, since it's the least subjective criteria. You don't have to like MM, but assuming that one can replicate him easier than Bonham or Peart is highly questionable. He has an incredible amount of talent and he's working exceptionally hard at his craft. Anyway, as you said, no reason to keep this going, except to address this: don't put words in my mouth, I don't rate songs based on technical prowess, that's the silliest idea I've heard in a long time.

[Stadler]

Wow, sorry.  Didn't mean to "derail the thread".  That "pointless" discussion isn't "pointless" to me.   I was just expressing an alternate opinion regarding a song.   I did not mean to put any words in your mouth and I'm sorry you took it that way.