What do you 'feel' DT lacks?

[erwinrafael]

Other than Myung, they all lack restraint. Rudess tries too hard to sound like a 70s prog keyboardist...or a Nintendo 64 game.

Along for the Ride, The Looking Glass, Surrender to Reason, The Bigger Picture.

Yep, all songs showing that Rudess has no restraint.

[Xenon]

Other than Myung, they all lack restraint. Rudess tries too hard to sound like a 70s prog keyboardist...or a Nintendo 64 game.

Along for the Ride, The Looking Glass, Surrender to Reason, The Bigger Picture.

Yep, all songs showing that Rudess has no restraint.

To be honest, most of those songs support DerekTheater opinion.

[erwinrafael]

Other than Myung, they all lack restraint. Rudess tries too hard to sound like a 70s prog keyboardist...or a Nintendo 64 game.

Along for the Ride, The Looking Glass, Surrender to Reason, The Bigger Picture.

Yep, all songs showing that Rudess has no restraint.

To be honest, most of those songs support DerekTheater opinion.

JR better leave the band and for DT to not have any more keyboardists if you want more restraint than the way he played those songs. Geez.

Or maybe this is another one of I wish DT still has Kevin Moore posts.

[erwinrafael]

I´d say:

1) better bass production (turn it up!);
2) better drum production;
3) better stage presence.

The thing about bass production is that JM's bass is low if you use the traditional earphones, but now that I have shifted to in-ear headphones, which is the fastest-growing earphone type today, the bass is actually loud. I am currently listening to TLG and JM is louder than JR. In TBP, JM is just as loud as JP. Maybe they are now mixing amd engineerring based on these new listening devices.

[seasonsinthesky]

I´d say:

1) better bass production (turn it up!);
2) better drum production;
3) better stage presence.

The thing about bass production is that JM's bass is low if you use the traditional earphones, but now that I have shifted to in-ear headphones, which is the fastest-growing earphone type today, the bass is actually loud. I am currently listening to TLG and JM is louder than JR. In TBP, JM is just as loud as JP. Maybe they are now mixing amd engineerring based on these new listening devices.

are you listening to the CD master or the HDTracks one?

i find it more likely they are reducing the very bottom to make the CD louder (it's one of the tricks to the superloud trend – fat bass waves make limiters pump too much when you push them that hard) but are leaving it alone when they take the limiter off (or reduce it) for the HDTracks releases.

also i'm sure in-earphones have their own particular frequency response that perhaps reproduces bass better than the usual headphones and earbuds.

[adamack]

I´d say:

1) better bass production (turn it up!);
2) better drum production;
3) better stage presence.

The thing about bass production is that JM's bass is low if you use the traditional earphones, but now that I have shifted to in-ear headphones, which is the fastest-growing earphone type today, the bass is actually loud. I am currently listening to TLG and JM is louder than JR. In TBP, JM is just as loud as JP. Maybe they are now mixing amd engineerring based on these new listening devices.

also i'm sure in-earphones have their own particular frequency response that perhaps reproduces bass better than the usual headphones and earbuds.

This is a wild guess, but I think that the frequency output of in-ear headphones may be the same as traditional headphones. But the suction created by the design of the earbud greatly accentuates the bass, as it "traps" the bass directly into your ear canal.

The reason I believe this may be true is this: If you have traditional headphones on, and you press them tight against your ears, the bass (particularly the sub frequencies) become much more apparent. So this makes be believe that most headphone types contain these frequencies, but it's the design aspect of the in-ear ones which provide the bass boost.

In any case, I know exactly what you guys mean...whenever I use my in-ear headphones, the bass is insane! It's almost overkill.

The interesting thing is that the design tends to cause the sub bass frequencies to be accentuated, rather than the audible low-mids of the bass. So it produces somewhat of a bass-heavy hip-hop type mix, regardless of what you're listening to.

[erwinrafael]

I listen to the HD tracks mix. I also have the mp3s. Anyway, I think the DT12 bass is ok if you use in-ear headphones. I also noticed that a lot of earphones today have some sort of bass booster, so I am not sure if that was somehowbtaken into consideration when they mixed the record.

The in-ear headphones I use is just a standard Moonrock and the bass already sounds great. But then I tried this Bose in-ear while I was in the shop, and, wow, I was in awe. The salesman almost got me to buy it, good thing I reminded myself that the Bose in-ear costs one week salary. 

[Infinite Cactus]

I think they lack more concise song-through format songs. Meaning that other than the epics, the songs follow a formula. Nowadays in an under 10 minute song you get:
Intro
Verse
Prechorus
Chorus
Verse variation
Prechorus Variation
Chorus Variation
Solo section
Chorus x 2 or 4
Outro.

Whereas in the past, a song like Take the Time, The Killing Hand, Metropolis, Beyond This Life, New Millennium, you'd get more parts, and bigger variation between. New Millennium has a vast difference in verses for example. I still like the songs they release now for the most part, regardless of formula a good song is a good song. But I do miss having songs like Take The Time.

Speaking of which, more funky groovy songs would be nice. I'm black. I REQUIRE MORE FUNKY BASS FOR SUSTENANCE.

[hefdaddy42]

Other than Myung, they all lack restraint. Rudess tries too hard to sound like a 70s prog keyboardist...or a Nintendo 64 game.

Along for the Ride, The Looking Glass, Surrender to Reason, The Bigger Picture.

Yep, all songs showing that Rudess has no restraint.

To be honest, most of those songs support DerekTheater opinion.

Not his point about restraint, which is the one that erwinrafael was specifically responding to.

[IdoSC]

DT lack enough cowbell.
There must be more.

Listen to the Chile 2005 official bootleg and you'll be fine.

[goo-goo]

Haven't read the whole thread and I apologize in advance if somebody else has said this but I think DT lacks a bit of inspiration and getting out the box when writing. Now, this has been going on since MP was in the band was more noticeable in Black Clouds, ADTOE and DT12.  What I love about SDOIT Disc 1 is that no song follows a specific formula or structure. Every song sounds different and yet sound like DT. Same with Falling Into Infinity. I guess DT12 broke a bit of that formula but you could still hear it.

As far as the concert themselves, DT has tried almost everything and everytime the production seems to increase (more lighting, more props, better screens, etc...). I love this but it would be cool if they kind a step it down (at least for once) and get a more raw live setting (kind of like Fates Warning or Evergrey; check out their latest DVDs by the way)...Still Life and LIve in Athens are live albums that get me excited when I hear them. I can feel the energy from the audience. The last two DT DVDs, I hardly feel that. I could feel it in Once in a Livetime and even in Scenes from a Memory, but LALP and BTFW not so much.

I hope my post makes sense.

[DerekTheater]

Other than Myung, they all lack restraint. Rudess tries too hard to sound like a 70s prog keyboardist...or a Nintendo 64 game.

Along for the Ride, The Looking Glass, Surrender to Reason, The Bigger Picture.

Yep, all songs showing that Rudess has no restraint.

To be honest, most of those songs support DerekTheater opinion.

JR better leave the band and for DT to not have any more keyboardists if you want more restraint than the way he played those songs. Geez.

Or maybe this is another one of I wish DT still has Kevin Moore posts.

Grow up. I've liked this band for years, but no one is above reproach. Did I say I hated JR? No. I just don't think Dream Theater should try to sound like Emerson, Lake & Palmer.

[Moonchild]

1) Outside producer. Need I say more oh drums and vocals?

2) Corporate. They have their own private niche so they don't step out of the box like they used to. They were one of the first to revive the double album in prog, long epic songs..etc.. now everyone thinks that's what they always must do.

3) C'mon!! orchestral stuff again? Technology made keyboards sound awesome and very orchestra like in the studio.. do they really need to release another live album with them again? What about just flutes or a brass band?

[chaossystem]

Thank GOD someone agrees with me about the orchestra!

I don't have "Breaking the Fourth Wall" yet, but I HAVE heard the new version of "Strange Deja Vu," and I thought the orchestra and choir were just an annoying distraction from the BAND playing the SONG!

[King Postwhore]

Dynamics in their studio recordings. 

[rumborak]

The problem is that DT, other than in IT, used the orchestra as filler strings. So, I agree ) and many others do) that the orchestra has little more importance than being a really expensive keyboard patch.

[the_silent_man]

As for what I'd like to see musically, I'd like to see:

- Longer, more progressive songs (which in general they do, I'm just worried that they'll continue with the ~6 min songs again after the success of the s/t. As good as that release was, they've made that point now and it'd be nice to get more proggy again!  )
- More use of jazzier sounds and/or other influences mixed in with the metal sound (perhaps some flute sounds would be cool?)
- Crazier Jordan Rudess stuff. I don't mean AROP solo wank, I mean unique and varied work like on his recent LMR release - WAY better than anything he's contributed to DT in the last 10 years.
- Better choruses/lyrics in general. On the recent albums, it feels the choruses try too hard to be anthemic/epic. I'd love to see deeper, more thought out lyrics again like those up to 6DOIT, dripping in metaphors and where you have to dig deep to find the meanings.


As for in general, I'd like to see more/better crowd interaction live and better thought out "jibba jabba" (as some call it round here  ) rather than seemingly random talking to the crowd that happens right now haha.

Probably sounds really picky, I am in general VERY happy with the band atm and the last 2 albums are the best they've released in a while. I can't think of many bands 25+ years into their career that are as consistently good and put as much effort in as DT.

[tiagodon]

A DVD showing all the process of composition and rehearsal in studio - since the pop up of the first idea till how the musicians add to the idea and the rough material becomes a song. That would be something!

[adamack]

The problem is that DT, other than in IT, used the orchestra as filler strings. So, I agree ) and many others do) that the orchestra has little more importance than being a really expensive keyboard patch.

I don't know why people have a problem with the orchestra.

I mean, It would be one thing if the orchestra was dominating the band and sounded too loud. Then, it would just be distracting and ruin the songs.

But as you said, they use the orchestra more as filler.

It is more environmental, and more in the background.

My point is, that even if the orchestra is inaudible by itself, it still provides an atmosphere that cannot be duplicated by even the best keyboard patches.

There are some amazing patches these days, but they would sound more restricted and partitioned being fed through JR's speakers than an orchestra which can use its own space in the spectrum.

Why not create a grander, broader dynamic with a real orchestra, so that at the very least, the fans at the show can experience a bigger, fuller mix? And in turn, give JR a little more room to focus on his lead parts.

Just my thoughts. To each his own though.

[Nick]

Please do not share links to illicitly spread officially released material.

[Xenon]

Other than Myung, they all lack restraint. Rudess tries too hard to sound like a 70s prog keyboardist...or a Nintendo 64 game.

Along for the Ride, The Looking Glass, Surrender to Reason, The Bigger Picture.

Yep, all songs showing that Rudess has no restraint.

To be honest, most of those songs support DerekTheater opinion.

Not his point about restraint, which is the one that erwinrafael was specifically responding to.

I was refering to him sounding like a 70s keyboardist.

[hefdaddy42]

Yes, but that wasn't his point.  He was specifically talking about restraint.  So you responded to a point he wasn't making.

[erwinrafael]

Yes, I was talking about restraint.  Especially with the video game comment coming up.

[Xenon]

My bad then, I missunderstood what you said. Sorry.

[erwinrafael]

My bad then, I missunderstood what you said. Sorry.

Cool beans. 

I wish JR would do more piano than synths. I like how he did this in TLG in the BTFW version. My favorite solo parts by JR are also with the piano sound (BAI, IT, and especially Blind Faith. And I love Haken's piano riff in Atlas Stone. 

That's it. I want more piano to gonwith more cowbell!

[DerekTheater]

Yes, I was talking about restraint.  Especially with the video game comment coming up.

It was more of a joke than anything, but you can't tell me you haven't listened to Rudess and been reminded of Mario Kart. 

[erwinrafael]

Yes, I was talking about restraint.  Especially with the video game comment coming up.

It was more of a joke than anything, but you can't tell me you haven't listened to Rudess and been reminded of Mario Kart. 

Well, there are songs like that, but those are balanced by songs where he is restrained. i also think it's a DT thing, not just JR, because they have done that vid game thing even back in Metropolis Pt. 1. 

[sylvinception]

"What do you 'feel' DT lacks?"

== >> A great, "real" producer/mixer (both ??) for their studio releases.
Nothing else comes to my mind.

[Xenon]

I like his restrainment in DT12.

[Outcrier]

"What do you 'feel' DT lacks?"

== >> A great, "real" producer/mixer (both ??) for their studio releases.
Nothing else comes to my mind.

For me, saying what i think DT lacks would end being more about changes that fit my present personal tastes than anything so, to be fair, i will agree with you about the production since it's a thing that would not appeal only to me.

[Rodni Demental]

"What do you 'feel' DT lacks?"

== >> A great, "real" producer/mixer (both ??) for their studio releases.
Nothing else comes to my mind.

Are you trying to say that JPs beard isn't a "real" producer?

Come on now... 

[marlencrabapple]

Aside from better production, I really want them to experiment a little more. JR should give something like Animal Collective a listen. Maybe they can inspire some new keyboard sounds so we aren't stuck with the same casio keyboard solos over and over again.

[Rodni Demental]

Whereas in the past, a song like Take the Time, The Killing Hand, Metropolis, Beyond This Life, New Millennium, you'd get more parts, and bigger variation between. New Millennium has a vast difference in verses for example. I still like the songs they release now for the most part, regardless of formula a good song is a good song. But I do miss having songs like Take The Time.

Well, DT is still less formulaic than most bands with their songwriting structure (although I guess that's besides the point). In fairness, I think there are still plenty of songs that vary and build on a previous section in ways that New Millennium/Take The Time did. For example, Lost Not Forgotten, Breaking all Illusions and On The Backs Of Angels all come to mind as having second verses that are substantially different to their first verse. With DT12 this occurs more in the instrumentation getting a lot busier the second time around.

I wish JR would do more piano than synths. I like how he did this in TLG in the BTFW version. My favorite solo parts by JR are also with the piano sound (BAI, IT, and especially Blind Faith.

YES I love JR in TLG on BTFW. In fact, I never noticed all that crazy piano work in the song if it's even in the studio version. But I would like to see more stuff like this and the piano breakdown from OTBOA before the guitar solo comes to mind aswell. We need more piano from JR, that's what DTs lacking atm!

[erwinrafael]

Whereas in the past, a song like Take the Time, The Killing Hand, Metropolis, Beyond This Life, New Millennium, you'd get more parts, and bigger variation between. New Millennium has a vast difference in verses for example. I still like the songs they release now for the most part, regardless of formula a good song is a good song. But I do miss having songs like Take The Time.

Well, DT is still less formulaic than most bands with their songwriting structure (although I guess that's besides the point). In fairness, I think there are still plenty of songs that vary and build on a previous section in ways that New Millennium/Take The Time did. For example, Lost Not Forgotten, Breaking all Illusions and On The Backs Of Angels all come to mind as having second verses that are substantially different to their first verse. With DT12 this occurs more in the instrumentation getting a lot busier the second time around.

DT12 also has a lot of these, it's just subtle. For example, TBP indeed has verse-chorus-verse, but the music in the second verse is not the same as the first verse. And then the chorus does not play after the instrumentals because the section after the instrumental is again different! And then there is that last third of the song which has two distinct musical movements. The transitions are actually subtle that the listener often does not notice that the only repeating section in TBP is the first chorus (and it repeated only once!).

Behind The Veil also has these subtle changes. The only repeating sections in BTV are the pre-chorus (twice) and the chorus (thrice). The verses are different. Of course there is the main riff, but it is THE main riff, so it has to be repeating all over the song. Hehehe.

Surrender to Reason has only one repeating section, the chorus, and it only repeats after the instrumental (and the second chorus is different, with "restless angels..."

I think people just do not notice these because the songs are short and to the point. But there's a lot of variety within the songs, just like their previous songs.

[Infinite Cactus]

I very much noticed these things. And I prefer Dream Theater's short songs for the most part. I just think they could use more of it. Also, I miss the funky-groovier elements of certain songs. They still have this, I'd just like to see it get played up more often.