New Live Release: BREAKING THE FOURTH WALL discussion thread

[Zydar]

Stop making sense, Blob!

[BlobVanDam]

Stop? I'm not sure I've even started yet.

[Kotowboy]

 

At exactly 0:01 I sat back and let the show kick my ass.

I don't know how some of you guys can even enjoy the music at all when you're so busy nit-picking everything.

Yes, "we wouldn't be prog fans if we didn't" and "welcome to the Dream Theater Forums" and all that noise but, man, seriously.

Personally the "ignorance is bliss" attitude disturbs me, as if noticing details is a negative thing, because I don't see it as a bad thing at all. Just because we notice something, doesn't mean we're not enjoying the hell out of it at the same time!
It's just being observant, and for me it's an extra level to the experience to enjoy. I love noticing all of these little details, and appreciating that these are real people doing their best to give us something great. It's like "Where's Wally (or Waldo for the Americans)" for your TV!
I could point out little things like this on all of DT's DVDs. It doesn't make me enjoy it any less, it just gives me one more unique thing to discuss and share with other fans.

Plus I don't care that some fixing may have gone on as its par for the course these days.

It happens. I know it happens. It doesn't bother me. I enjoy it anyway.

On cunning stunts there's many moments where the audio and video clearly don't match up but its fun

To notice them.

[TheAtliator]

I immensely enjoyed every minute of this release and, precisely for that reason, I watch it a lot. After multiple viewings, these things just pop into your eyes, especially if they're related to drums or vocals, as it's very obvious if something doesn't sync up there. You don't have to be nitpicky, if you're immersed, attentive and know what's going on, you'll spot these involuntarily.

[TheAtliator]

I'm sorry our 100% focus on what we're watching offends you.

And while wer're at it, I'm sorry DT is so good at their instruments and therefore have no emotion whatsoever.

[Zook]

I'm sorry our 100% focus on what we're watching offends you.

And while wer're at it, I'm sorry DT is so good at their instruments and therefore have no emotion whatsoever.

I'm really sorry, but I don't give a shit. No.

[Zydar]

Burning mah soooooooul.

[Zook]

Burning mah soooooooul.

What is this emotion bullshit? Dream Theater are emotionless robots. Get it right, noob!

[PetFish]

I understand its not a bad thing and I'm glad you guys are able to enjoy everything with all the extra attentiveness. I definitely don't have this skill.  My wife constantly chats through movies about anything and it drives me crazy. I need to be focused. Maybe I'm just durrrrrr...

I'm not offended and don't know how the person who said that thought I was. Silly.

[TheGreatPretender]

I understand its not a bad thing and I'm glad you guys are able to enjoy everything with all the extra attentiveness. I definitely don't have this skill.  My wife constantly chats through movies about anything and it drives me crazy. I need to be focused. Maybe I'm just durrrrrr...

I'm not offended and don't know how the person who said that thought I was. Silly.

Who cares, dude? The important thing is, do you still enjoy it just as much? That's all that matters. 

[PetFish]

 

[TAC]

At exactly 0:01 I sat back and let the show kick my ass.

I don't know how some of you guys can even enjoy the music at all when you're so busy nit-picking everything.

Yes, "we wouldn't be prog fans if we didn't" and "welcome to the Dream Theater Forums" and all that noise but, man, seriously.

Personally the "ignorance is bliss" attitude disturbs me, as if noticing details is a negative thing, because I don't see it as a bad thing at all. Just because we notice something, doesn't mean we're not enjoying the hell out of it at the same time!
It's just being observant, and for me it's an extra level to the experience to enjoy. I love noticing all of these little details, and appreciating that these are real people doing their best to give us something great. It's like "Where's Wally (or Waldo for the Americans)" for your TV!
I could point out little things like this on all of DT's DVDs. It doesn't make me enjoy it any less, it just gives me one more unique thing to discuss and share with other fans.

Obviously there's a lot of positives said here about everything DT has done, but I think all he's really saying is that it can get tiring coming on here and seeing all of the nitpicking going on, and a lot of the negatives. I understand it. I get like that too.
It's discussion which means it goes both ways, positive and negative.

[bosk1]

^Exactly that.  And while all forms of discussion are permitted (provided they do not break the rules), not all forms of discussion are equally enjoyable.  Constant complaining and nitpicking are just annoying and will (rightly) be called out by many.

[erwinrafael]

The problem is that I don't think some are even inviting discussion, because once they are engaged, they retreat to just my opinion you have no business engaging me territory.

[cramx3]

Maybe for each release it would be better to have a separate thread for all the "at this time stamp something is wrong" discussions.  Not a single thing pointed out bothers me and I honestly don't pay that close enough of attention to notice usually and when I do I say "hey they are only human" but that's just me. Carry on

[FlashCE]

Does JR just play the usual parts when the orchestra and choir are around? With the strings playing sometimes it seems like JR is just playing the same thing.

[FlashCE]

https://imgur.com/Vjz6QD4

Lmao at the violist throwing up the horns during Dance of Eternity.

[MetropolisxPt1]

       As Peter Chris of KISS has said about their Kiss alive album, "There is no such thing as a completely live album but the drums are real". Most parts are kept intact as much as possible but not everything can be redone. The drums however are much harder to patch in from my understanding.

      I enjoyed some of this release more then others. My main problem is the use of metronome in their shows since Mangini has entered the band. The tempo's just don't always feel organic and some passages lack drive which they are fully able to utilize. If you take the cleveland show i was at in '12 and sync it up with boston show its a nearly identical copy with a slightly changed solo. This is not always a problem in many cases but sometimes it appears evident to me as a listener that the band is playing with tracks at time and the speed they play at feels less genuine.  If they just played less robotic and more as one during these parts they would be much more cohesive as a band imo. I think its time to think outside the box and not rest on their body of work. The ability is there but the passion needs to be brought more to the forefront.

[FlashCE]

       As Peter Chris of KISS has said about their Kiss alive album, "There is no such thing as a completely live album but the drums are real". Most parts are kept intact as much as possible but not everything can be redone. The drums however are much harder to patch in from my understanding.

      I enjoyed some of this release more then others. My main problem is the use of metronome in their shows since Mangini has entered the band. The tempo's just don't always feel organic and some passages lack drive which they are fully able to utilize. If you take the cleveland show i was at in '12 and sync it up with boston show its a nearly identical copy with a slightly changed solo. This is not always a problem in many cases but sometimes it appears evident to me as a listener that the band is playing with tracks at time and the speed they play at feels less genuine.  If they just played less robotic and more as one during these parts they would be much more cohesive as a band imo. I think its time to think outside the box and not rest on their body of work. The ability is there but the passion needs to be brought more to the forefront.

They sounded like a mess sometimes prior to using a metronome.

[Skeever]

Obviously there's a lot of positives said here about everything DT has done, but I think all he's really saying is that it can get tiring coming on here and seeing all of the nitpicking going on, and a lot of the negatives. I understand it. I get like that too.
It's discussion which means it goes both ways, positive and negative.

I agree that it goes both ways. If things were all positive, there'd be no discussion. There'd just be a weird cult of fans that all agreed EVERYTHING IS AWESOME

[Grizz]

Isn't that what people think we are anyway?

[Rodni Demental]

Obviously there's a lot of positives said here about everything DT has done, but I think all he's really saying is that it can get tiring coming on here and seeing all of the nitpicking going on, and a lot of the negatives. I understand it. I get like that too.
It's discussion which means it goes both ways, positive and negative.

I agree that it goes both ways. If things were all positive, there'd be no discussion. There'd just be a weird cult of fans that all agreed EVERYTHING IS AWESOME

If there weren't opposing opinions, you wouldn't even know where you stand. Opposing opinions help validate your own beliefs or more specifically, your point of view. Because if you have an example of a viewpoint that you don't prefer, it gives you a chance to choose what you do prefer. If everyone liked everything, well we wouldn't even know what was "good" by personal or comparative standards and well.. That'd probably be pretty boring. 

So when you look at it like that, I guess we should be grateful to everyone who thinks differently to ourselves. Because we would have no personal identity if everyone was in agreement. By extension, we probably wouldn't even be able to more accurately determine or even identify the things we assume or accept to be universal truth as easily, because there'd be nothing to challenge our preconceptions of the status quo.

[MetropolisxPt1]

       As Peter Chris of KISS has said about their Kiss alive album, "There is no such thing as a completely live album but the drums are real". Most parts are kept intact as much as possible but not everything can be redone. The drums however are much harder to patch in from my understanding.

      I enjoyed some of this release more then others. My main problem is the use of metronome in their shows since Mangini has entered the band. The tempo's just don't always feel organic and some passages lack drive which they are fully able to utilize. If you take the cleveland show i was at in '12 and sync it up with boston show its a nearly identical copy with a slightly changed solo. This is not always a problem in many cases but sometimes it appears evident to me as a listener that the band is playing with tracks at time and the speed they play at feels less genuine.  If they just played less robotic and more as one during these parts they would be much more cohesive as a band imo. I think its time to think outside the box and not rest on their body of work. The ability is there but the passion needs to be brought more to the forefront.

They sounded like a mess sometimes prior to using a metronome.

They had their spots but overall i thought their performance felt more genuine and less forced. Its not a bad thing always but sometimes it bothers me. Maybe its the complexity of the music but RUSH does the same thing and their performances are much tighter given it is different material. I just think it feels unnatural imo for DT. I would just like to see them take their performances higher

[TheGreatPretender]

I agree that it goes both ways. If things were all positive, there'd be no discussion. There'd just be a weird cult of fans that all agreed EVERYTHING IS FLAWLESS

FTFY. Little flaws don't prevent everything from still being awesome. I mean, people can nitpick all they want, but does it actually ruin the experience for them? I haven't heard anyone say they DON'T like the release because of these little flaws.

They had their spots but overall i thought their performance felt more genuine and less forced. Its not a bad thing always but sometimes it bothers me. Maybe its the complexity of the music but RUSH does the same thing and their performances are much tighter given it is different material. I just think it feels unnatural imo for DT. I would just like to see them take their performances higher

I don't see how using a click track make their performance... Umm... "Lower" I guess. If anything, it's more difficult to play to a click track because it leaves a lot less room for mistakes, especially on Mike Mangini's part. I mean, even if you don't like the end result as much as you would a more "organic" approach, that doesn't make one or the other superior in absolute terms.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

If there weren't any flaws or if everyone loved it, discussion would be pretty boring.

- I love it! They're so awesome! Lots of virtuostic Gods lol!
- I agree.
- Totally.
- Definitely! Perfect band!
...

Until the quote pyramid reaches hefdaddy's quote pyramid radar and is forced to shut it off.

[TheGreatPretender]

If there weren't any flaws or if everyone loved it, discussion would be pretty boring.

- I love it! They're so awesome! Lots of virtuostic Gods lol!
- I agree.
- Totally.
- Definitely! Perfect band!
...

Until the quote pyramid reaches hefdaddy's quote pyramid radar and is forced to shut it off.

But then it also depends on how you define flawless too. I mean, look at the ending of The Mirror. One could say that JR played it flawlessly. But even if he did, it's different from what it was on the album, and even if he did it well, some people might not enjoy it. Same with how they built Space-Dye Vest. I think it was amazing, and other people will still complain that the song has lost its essence, because there's no "Emo" in Rudess, like there is in Moore.

I'm not saying not to nitpick, by all means, do what you want. I'm just saying there are plenty of interesting discussions to be had without focusing on mistakes they made.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

If there weren't any flaws or if everyone loved it, discussion would be pretty boring.

- I love it! They're so awesome! Lots of virtuostic Gods lol!
- I agree.
- Totally.
- Definitely! Perfect band!
...

Until the quote pyramid reaches hefdaddy's quote pyramid radar and is forced to shut it off.

I'm not saying not to nitpick, by all means, do what you want. I'm just saying there are plenty of interesting discussions to be had without focusing on mistakes they made.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, and it's normally the way discussion goes around in this forum IMO.

You should take into account that this forum is inhabited (mostly) by prog hardcore fans, which are usually more inquisitive about things; and I'm perfectly ok with that.

[TheGreatPretender]

I wholeheartedly agree with this, and it's normally the way discussion goes around in this forum IMO.

You should take into account that this forum is inhabited (mostly) by prog hardcore fans, which are usually more inquisitive about things; and I'm perfectly ok with that.

I do think we need to keep tabs on it though. I mean, I think nitpicking goes a little too far when I can imagine somone who may not be a Prog or DT fan, and they just wander accidentally into this thread, maybe just curious about what BTFW is like, and they read the comments and think, "Man, this DVD must really suck. Look at all the flaws people are pointing out. Even their fans hate it!" 

[Rodni Demental]

I see your point, but also, it's page 54, the casual fans probably won't make it this far.

[TheGreatPretender]

I see your point, but also, it's page 54, the casual fans probably won't make it this far.

Unless they simply click on the LAST page, haha, then that's exactly where they'll find themselves!

[RaiseTheKnife]

Just received Anthrax' new DVD Chile On Hell, which is a bare bones/ no frills release. I would just like to reiterate how especially nice the packaging is on Breaking the Fourth Wall.

[erwinrafael]

       As Peter Chris of KISS has said about their Kiss alive album, "There is no such thing as a completely live album but the drums are real". Most parts are kept intact as much as possible but not everything can be redone. The drums however are much harder to patch in from my understanding.

      I enjoyed some of this release more then others. My main problem is the use of metronome in their shows since Mangini has entered the band. The tempo's just don't always feel organic and some passages lack drive which they are fully able to utilize. If you take the cleveland show i was at in '12 and sync it up with boston show its a nearly identical copy with a slightly changed solo. This is not always a problem in many cases but sometimes it appears evident to me as a listener that the band is playing with tracks at time and the speed they play at feels less genuine.  If they just played less robotic and more as one during these parts they would be much more cohesive as a band imo. I think its time to think outside the box and not rest on their body of work. The ability is there but the passion needs to be brought more to the forefront.

The metronome thing again. It's not a Mike Mangini thing. The metronome is a band decision to deliver a live experience that includes a lot of visual media that sync with what they are playing. If they would decide to change their approach to live shows and do more stripped-down concerts, then they might give up the metronome.

I really can not understand this playing with metronome = lack of drive and passion thing. Did the performance of The Shattered Fortress not sound passionate and driven enough for you?  In music school, students are taught to play at a consistent pace like a metronome. So music schools should just scrap teaching their students to play that way because all we ever get are musicians who play like robots?

[TAC]

Peter Criss' name should not be brought up on this side of the board. Ever.

[MetropolisxPt1]

       As Peter Chris of KISS has said about their Kiss alive album, "There is no such thing as a completely live album but the drums are real". Most parts are kept intact as much as possible but not everything can be redone. The drums however are much harder to patch in from my understanding.

      I enjoyed some of this release more then others. My main problem is the use of metronome in their shows since Mangini has entered the band. The tempo's just don't always feel organic and some passages lack drive which they are fully able to utilize. If you take the cleveland show i was at in '12 and sync it up with boston show its a nearly identical copy with a slightly changed solo. This is not always a problem in many cases but sometimes it appears evident to me as a listener that the band is playing with tracks at time and the speed they play at feels less genuine.  If they just played less robotic and more as one during these parts they would be much more cohesive as a band imo. I think its time to think outside the box and not rest on their body of work. The ability is there but the passion needs to be brought more to the forefront.

The metronome thing again. It's not a Mike Mangini thing. The metronome is a band decision to deliver a live experience that includes a lot of visual media that sync with what they are playing. If they would decide to change their approach to live shows and do more stripped-down concerts, then they might give up the metronome.

I really can not understand this playing with metronome = lack of drive and passion thing. Did the performance of The Shattered Fortress not sound passionate and driven enough for you?  In music school, students are taught to play at a consistent pace like a metronome. So music schools should just scrap teaching their students to play that way because all we ever get are musicians who play like robots?

I never said it was a mangini problem i said it was a problem since he has joined the band. That being said yes actually one of my main examples of this is THe Shattered fortress where it is evident that they are playing with a metronome or having to make conscious efforts to stay together on top of the metronome. I understand it is for lighting and video purposes but i could care less if the music seems to lack passion and drive at points. There performance shouldn't sound like multiple people playing it should sound more unified at the points im talking about that's all. It doesnt always detract from the performance but there are parts where i find the tempo's horribly slow and dragging. Especially in the sfam aniversary stuff

[erwinrafael]

They didn't sound unified? That's new.