What grade do you give the Score set list?

[CrimsonSunrise]

I gave it a C, on a good day a B-.  My perfect "A" for the format would have been....


Set 1.

"The Root of All Evil"      
"These Walls"   
"The Killing Hand"      
"Learning to Live"      
"Voices"      
"Raise the Knife"   
"Finally Free" 

Set 2

"6DOIT"
"Stream of Consciousness"
"Sacrificed Sons"
"Octavarium"
"Metropolis Pt. 1"

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

The Bucharest ytsejam release sort of took care of this, but that is considered an unofficial release.

I'm not a great fan of the LALP setlist either - too many ADTOE songs, and the choice of older songs is somewhat underwhelming.

...But that was the point of A Dramatic Tour of Events, wasn't it? 

[theseoafs]

I gave it a C, on a good day a B-.  My perfect "A" for the format would have been....


Set 1.

"The Root of All Evil"      
"These Walls"   
"The Killing Hand"      
"Learning to Live"      
"Voices"      
"Raise the Knife"   
"Finally Free" 

Set 2

"6DOIT"
"Stream of Consciousness"
"Sacrificed Sons"
"Octavarium"
"Metropolis Pt. 1"

Isn't this setlist way too long?

[emtee]

I always wondered if MP was the only guy who picked the set list for that show or, since it was such a significant event, if all the
others were involved too. There is just no way to satisfy everyone in a situation like that. I would have loved to see ACOS as
the encore with the orchestra.

[Cool Chris]

I always wondered if MP was the only guy who picked the set list for that show or, since it was such a significant event, if all the others were involved too.

Were the others ever invovled in those decisions?

Hard me to to rate this setlist, since one ~40 minute long song drags it down from a high B to a low D. B/B-.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I always wondered if MP was the only guy who picked the set list for that show or, since it was such a significant event, if all the
others were involved too. There is just no way to satisfy everyone in a situation like that. I would have loved to see ACOS as
the encore with the orchestra.

MP was the main force driving the setlist truck for many years. It's well known that the other guys were comfortable with MP's decision taking in this department, so they just let him do his thing.

[KevShmev]

Right, but I always figured that if one of the other guys really wanted to play a song, or really didn't want to play a song, he'd take that into strong consideration.

[Dublagent66]

I gave it an "A" since I think it is the best live recording they have produced so far with the variety of songs they had to pick from.  Although, the setlist itself could've been better I suppose.  That is totally a matter of opinion, but I look at how the chosen songs were performed.  Everything sounded great.

[emtee]

I've been a fan since the day PMU hit radio so I'm aware of MP's set list background. I just wondered for this show only, since
everyone's family members were there and because it was a capsule of the entire career, if the others were involved this one
time.

[ReaPsTA]

The setlist decisions in score were more political than creative.  It had to be three hours because of curfew.  It had to feature 5 songs from Octavarium (including TROAE to start the show and 8vm to close the second set), one from each other album, Another Won, an an encore of either Metropolis or WFS/LTL.

Because of the orchestra thing, certain songs had to be there.  You couldn't bring out an orchestra and not do Six Degrees, TALW, or SS (also, SS had to be there because of the New York factor).  You had to end with Metropolis, because it's one of the three most iconic DT songs.  You had to put in Raise the Knife for the FII section because it's such an excellent goodie.

So, when you consider all the decisions you're forced into because of politics, you have like no flexibility in the setlist:

TROAE
[8vm song]
Another Won
[WDADU song]
[I&W song]
[Awake song]
Raise the Knife
[SFaM song]

-------

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
[ToT song]
TALW
SS
8vm

-------

Metropolis

Also, you have less than an hour to work with because of the curfew.

So, what ended up happening is that a lot of shorter, less iconic songs ended up having to fill the gaps.

[KevShmev]

Eh, most of those "had"s are not true at all. 

They didn't have to do five songs from 8V.

They didn't have to do SS because of NY.

They didn't have to have an orchestra in the first place.

etc.

[ReaPsTA]

They didn't have to do five songs from 8V.

It was their setlist format from the tour.  They weren't going to change it.  They should have, but they weren't going to.

They didn't have to do SS because of NY.

It was a damned if you do damned if you don't thing.  Everyone was waiting for it.  No one would have been happy if it wasn't there.  No one's happy that it is.  It has too much symbolic meaning relative to how good a song is.

They didn't have to have an orchestra in the first place.

I agree, but the impression I get from the people at the show is that the orchestra was a huge thrill and made the night really special.

Another thing - they shouldn't have played at a venue with a curfew.  They needed to go extra innings for such a huge show.

But they didn't do these things, and so now we're debating the quality of their 25th anniversary show, something which shouldn't be happening.

[KevShmev]

I don't agree about the venue.  RCMH is a famous place, and the show looks spectacular because it's there.  And it's not like three hours isn't enough time, especially when you think about the several minutes wasted with that pointless intro to The Spirit Carries On (which is awesome as is; no need for the extended intro, especially when on a time clock).

[Dream Team]

Gave it a C. First set is an A, with amazing performances.  Second set ddrrraaaaaggggssss. And the Bucharest setlist will never be topped (or equaled).

[bosk1]

I don't agree about the venue.  RCMH is a famous place, and the show looks spectacular because it's there.  And it's not like three hours isn't enough time, especially when you think about the several minutes wasted with that pointless intro to The Spirit Carries On (which is awesome as is; no need for the extended intro, especially when on a time clock).

This.  And as much as I actually like Jordan's noodling around on the intro to Octavarium, I think the same holds true there as well.  I think each one of the "restrictions" Reap mentioned is perfectly valid, and I am glad they did it that way, even if it painted them into a corner.  But while I actually do like the set list quite a bit, it could have been a bit better with just a bit more planning. 

If they had to break one rule of the above, for me, it would have been the "5 songs from Octavarium" rule.  Take out TALW, which I think you would honestly be hard pressed to find more than a handful of fans who were glad it was included.  Remove that and the two solo spots, and suddenly, you have quite a bit more freedom.  In fact, you would have almost precisely the exact amount of time you would need to include SOC with orchestra after Vacant, which would have been truly epic, IMO. 

[Setlist Scotty]

Right, but I always figured that if one of the other guys really wanted to play a song, or really didn't want to play a song, he'd take that into strong consideration.

And he did. When MP wanted to cover Ozzy's Revelation (Mother Earth), JL objected to it (he apparently hates that song), so MP chose Diary of a Madman instead.

The setlist decisions in score were more political than creative.  It had to be three hours because of curfew.  It had to feature 5 songs from Octavarium (including TROAE to start the show and 8vm to close the second set), one from each other album, Another Won, an an encore of either Metropolis or WFS/LTL.

I don't think it's quite that cut and dry. Yes, there was a curfew. But most of the setlist choices were because the songs had not been featured on a video previously. That's why you got Vacant, but not SOC (which just was on L@B). And MP bemoaned to me the fact that he included half of the title track to SDoIT on L@B, not realizing at the time he wrote the setlist for Budokan, that on the following tour they would do the RCMH show, but it was a given that the title track should be performed at this show.

And as for the "having to feature 5 songs from 8v", sorry chief, but you're wrong on that one. Besides the special shows where they covered another album and the shows that didn't have 2 sets separated by an intermission, there are other shows where there were not 5 songs from 8v. Here's what I found:
6 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=869
6 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=879
6 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=880
6 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=881
8 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=882
6 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=890
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=894
8 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=897
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=909
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=911
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=914
3 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=915
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=916
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=917
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=920
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=921
3 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=922
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=923

So while more than half the shows featured 5 8v songs, there are enough shows to prove that this was not a requirement as you suggest.

[Madman Shepherd]

If they had to break one rule of the above, for me, it would have been the "5 songs from Octavarium" rule.  Take out TALW, which I think you would honestly be hard pressed to find more than a handful of fans who were glad it was included.

Except they would probably never really care to play that again, as evidenced by every tour since then, and the mediocre fan reaction, so it was probably their only chance to put it on a live album. 

[KevShmev]

A number of those songs haven't been played at all, or barely played, since the RCMH show.  Hindsight can be a funny thing, but several of those songs definitely look like curious choices when you consider that.  Hell, even Innocence Faded has barely been played live ever.  Not sure how much it was played on the Awake tour (it wasn't on the first leg, which I saw), but, aside from the ending being tacked on to the end of Scarred on the FII tour, I think the handful of times it was played around the time of the RCMH show is about all it has been played live.

As for Revelation (Mother Earth), I wonder if JLB really hates that song, or if he was just worried that he couldn't do it justice (Ozzy is hardly a great vocalist, but he has some songs that I can't imagine anyone else singing well, simply because of how unusual his delivery is).

[Setlist Scotty]

If they had to break one rule of the above, for me, it would have been the "5 songs from Octavarium" rule.  Take out TALW, which I think you would honestly be hard pressed to find more than a handful of fans who were glad it was included.

Except they would probably never really care to play that again, as evidenced by every tour since then, and the mediocre fan reaction, so it was probably their only chance to put it on a live album.

I actually thought about that, and I agree that's probably one of the reasons why MP included it in the set. Otherwise, I can imagine IWBY actually being in its place, sounding good with the orchestra, and freeing up the space of the second song (following TRoAE) for something else like Panic Attack.

A number of those songs haven't been played at all, or barely played, since the RCMH show.  Hindsight can be a funny thing, but several of those songs definitely look like curious choices when you consider that. 

I wouldn't put it passed MP to have included some of the song choices just for the rarely played factor.

Hell, even Innocence Faded has barely been played live ever.  Not sure how much it was played on the Awake tour (it wasn't on the first leg, which I saw), but, aside from the ending being tacked on to the end of Scarred on the FII tour, I think the handful of times it was played around the time of the RCMH show is about all it has been played live.

IF is definitely one of the most rarely played songs from Awake, altho it actually was played on the first few dates of the Waking Up the World tour before being dropped. Then, as you said, they resurrected the instrumental outro, which they tacked on to 6:00 for some later Waking Up the World shows, besides adding it at the end of Scarred for some shows (tho I believe those shows were from World Tourbulence, not Touring Into Infinity), playing it for some late 1995 shows, and finally including it at shows on the last leg of the 20th Anniversary tour.

[ReaPsTA]

And as for the "having to feature 5 songs from 8v", sorry chief, but you're wrong on that one. Besides the special shows where they covered another album and the shows that didn't have 2 sets separated by an intermission, there are other shows where there were not 5 songs from 8v. Here's what I found:
6 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=869
6 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=879
6 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=880
6 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=881
8 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=882
6 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=890
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=894
8 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=897
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=909
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=911
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=914
3 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=915
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=916
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=917
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=920
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=921
3 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=922
4 - https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=923

So while more than half the shows featured 5 8v songs, there are enough shows to prove that this was not a requirement as you suggest.

Now I'm just really confused.  Only having 4 8vm songs would have really helped the set as a whole.

Hell, even Innocence Faded has barely been played live ever.  Not sure how much it was played on the Awake tour (it wasn't on the first leg, which I saw), but, aside from the ending being tacked on to the end of Scarred on the FII tour, I think the handful of times it was played around the time of the RCMH show is about all it has been played live.

Weirdly, IF is the one semi-obscure song on the album that I actually really really like.  Because Score's production is so different from Awake's (more emphasize on tone, midrange, and an overall sweeter sound), it's cool to hear Innocence Faded (a very melodic song) in an environment that shows its strengths in a different way from the album.  The performance is virtually perfect, and the song in general is underrated.

But most of the setlist choices were because the songs had not been featured on a video previously. That's why you got Vacant, but not SOC (which just was on L@B). And MP bemoaned to me the fact that he included half of the title track to SDoIT on L@B, not realizing at the time he wrote the setlist for Budokan, that on the following tour they would do the RCMH show, but it was a given that the title track should be performed at this show.

I mean, it's not like I don't see the logic in this at all, but to me it doesn't mean very much.  Like, the LAB Six Degrees songs and the versions on Score aren't even the same songs to me.  The orchestra, production, and performances make them so different.  SoC is on Budokan, but I'm down for a version with an orchestra.  There's enough room in the world for three versions of the song (including the studio one).

[PixelDream]

Score presents Dream Theater as a symphonic, progressive band. As much as I love the heavy Train of Thought material, I really prefer the expansiveness of the music that's on Score. Lots of rare songs (the rendition of Raise the Knife is just great), and their big epics (Octavarium, Six Degrees) make for a very interesting setlist. Adding to that, even 'The Spirit Carries On' gets improved on greatly when compared to LSFNY.

[Dream Team]

Regarding Innocence Faded, I just think that 2nd verse precludes if from being played live most of the time (kind of the same situation as Take The Time).

[kirksnosehair]

D

Octavarium is my least favorite DT album and this setlist is loaded with it. I realize they were touring for it with it being the current album and all so I completely cut them slack for having that much of it on there. Where I don't cut them slack is leaving out two of the three songs I can most tolerate from it (TW and PA.) Beyond that, Innocence Faded, The Spirit Carries on, SDOIT, and Vacant are all close to being my least favorite songs from their albums. Having Metropolis and Afterlife were huge bonuses for it though and Anther Won was a nice song for me to discover. All in all, however, I've watched this thing like maybe 3 or 4 times ever and haven't watched it in like 5 years at least. It's just too tedious to sit through all the stuff I, at best, only slightly dislike.

I feel similarly about Octavarium.    Score is not a DVD I watch too often either.  Dream Theater doing impressions of U2 and Muse....didn't really connect with me.  This all happened during that "Inspiration Corner" era. 

They've been doing U2 impressions almost since day 1.

Such as?

[robwebster]

I think To Live Forever was U2 influenced, wasn't it? That's pre James LaBrie, I think.* Speak to Me, massively, a few years later. It's a voice they've always toyed around with.



*From Spyro Gyra, right?

[ZirconBlue]

I think To Live Forever was U2 influenced, wasn't it? That's pre James LaBrie, I think.* Speak to Me, massively, a few years later. It's a voice they've always toyed around with.




*From Spyro Gyra, right?

To Live Forever was specifically directly inspired by U2 after the band saw "Rattle & Hum".

[robwebster]

Hurrah! I knew I remembered something like that. A quick Google search for "to live forever" u2 didn't turn up much, and adding "dream theater" was little better. Thank you!

[KevShmev]

Okay, but DT's U2-inspired songs still sound almost nothing like U2.  Many like to say I Walk Beside You sounds like U2, but, no, it really doesn't.  I mean, if you only know U2 casually, I can see why one might think that, but as a longtime huge fan of the band, that song sounds nothing like U2.

[robwebster]

On the other hand... you're a longtime huge fan of the band! You know them a lot, lot better than anyone else - and that probably makes your criteria for "sounds like U2" a lot narrower. I know my dogs' faces, so I could easily pick them out of a lineup of the same breed, but to anyone else they'd just look like... a row of similar dogs!

I'm a huge, huge fan of Muse, and wouldn't say Prophets of War sounds anything like them aside from the Take a Bow intro. It's got more Queen and Metallica. But people disagree!

[Invisible]

I'm also a big fan of U2 and I definitely hear the influences on To Live Forever(The Unforgettable Fire-Joshua Tree-R&H era), some bits of Lifting Shadows(the last chorus, not the overall feel of the song), Speak To Me, The Way It Used To Be, Trial of Tears. Not to say they sound similar at all, I can't imagine U2 coming up with none of those or I Walk Beside You(actually U2 never done something that poppy as that song), but the influences are there. I remember picking out more, but right now I'm not listening to either. But I think the main influence U2 has is on DT is some of JP writing style, the whole spiritual/christian imaginary(am I spelling it right?) thing sometimes has similar points, again, not saying they are carbon copies or obvious.

As for the thread topic, I'm torn between A- and B+. I wasn't thrilled at all when I saw the setlist, but when I listened to the concert I was amazed, and I wasn't a fan back then, it was my very first exposure to a lot of songs, Six Degrees included and it floored me. Having two epics was amazing, but I think ACOS would've been overkill on top of the other two. Could it have been been better? Without the orcherstra, definetely, but since they had that they took full advantage. I thought Vacant followed by The Answer Lies Within was a beautiful moment and I don't like the latter at all. And I would've skipped SS but I understand why it's there. The intro of The Spirit Carries On doesn't work on relisten, but the first time was amazing.

Would I've chose the same songs? Hell no. It is unbalanced and everything, and Raise The Knife, as good as it is, is a poor representation of FII, so is Innocence Faded compared to Caught In A Web or Lifting Shadows to make it breathe a little, but still a great show so I can't complain about anything.

[Invisible]

I'm a huge, huge fan of Muse, and wouldn't say Prophets of War sounds anything like them aside from the Take a Bow intro. It's got more Queen and Metallica. But people disagree!

Well, Muse have a strong Queen influence in quite a number of songs so saying you hear the other is not exactly denying it. I hear both, the Muse-ism is the electronic Take A Bow plus that riff and James way of singing that makes the combo for people saying it sounds like Muse.

[TAC]

I finally bought this on DVD, after avoiding it for so long because of what I always considered a pretty mediocre-looking set list.  After watching it, though, I think a little more of it, thanks to Set 1 coming off better than it looks on paper.  The performances of Afterlife, Raise the Knife, Under a Glass Moon and Innocence Faded are all dynamite, and that is a nice rendition of Another Won.  And ending a set with The Spirit Carries On is always good.

On the flip side, Set 2 is largely unimpressive, for me.  I don't care for 6DOIT as a single piece, and having it as one track on the DVD is really annoying.  I like Vacant, but with the orchestra, no thanks. The Answer Lies Within and Sacrificed Sons were both snoozers.  However, the performance of Octavarium was pretty spectacular.  I mainly bought the DVD because I wanted that to be on at least one of the live DT DVDs I own.  Metropolis as the encore is obviously great. 

Ultimately, I think having the orchestra restricted them, as they obviously felt like they had to do songs that heavily featured strings, like 6DOIT (thanks to the overture) and The Answer Lies Within.  But it severely lessened the set list.

Overall, I'll give the set list a B-, but considering it was an anniversary show and set list, it only gets a C from me.

I agree Kev. I remember getting up the morning after and seeing the set, thinking, damn, I'm glad I got what I got in Boston the show before.

That first disc is incredible. Another Won, Raise The Knife, Innocence Faded are great performances.

Plus:

And this tour is what made me a fan of Afterlife, and this is the best recording we have of that.

Same here.


BUT, I am also not a fan of wasting 42 minutes on 6 D's.  And as one track?? But I have played the shit out of that first disc.

I Walk Besides You is a killer song live. I wasn't a fan of it really, but when they played it in Boston it went over fantastic.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Right, but I always figured that if one of the other guys really wanted to play a song, or really didn't want to play a song, he'd take that into strong consideration.

This was probably the case, although there were a couple of things that made me think. JLB has stated that New Millennium is one of his least favorite DT tunes, and that song was played regularly during the 6DOIT and TOT tours. Maybe JLB didn't care much about the song being played or he didn't speak his mind back then, I don't know; but there were a couple of DT live show peculiarities over MP's last years in the band that made me wonder about these subject matters.

[robwebster]

I'm a huge, huge fan of Muse, and wouldn't say Prophets of War sounds anything like them aside from the Take a Bow intro. It's got more Queen and Metallica. But people disagree!

Well, Muse have a strong Queen influence in quite a number of songs so saying you hear the other is not exactly denying it. I hear both, the Muse-ism is the electronic Take A Bow plus that riff and James way of singing that makes the combo for people saying it sounds like Muse.

Muse didn't really channel Queen that much 'til The Resistance, which didn't come out until after BCSL! I think the Queen influence has more to do with DT being fans of Queen than DT being fans of Muse who are fans of Queen.

[Rodni Demental]

Just sayin.. Regarding 2 songs. 6DOIT and TALW. Both of these tracks are perfect for Score. I won't argue that Six Degrees was a flawless performance, but it's a very strong performance and I tend to listen to it over the studio one, but mainly because it always feels fresh and different. Who cares about the time, it was the perfect chance to play it and it's right where it needs to be on Score (Same with 8vm, except I don't know how we could get a better version of this one). I feel the same way about The Answer Lies Within, it's absolutely the definitive version of the song, this one I will say is flawless and I hardly ever listen to the Octavarium version unless I'm listening to the whole album. Besides, if it's really as unpopular as the impression some people will put off, then at least we've got the definitive version out of the way and it won't need to be in any other releases. Unlike some songs that really need an update (ACOS).

[KevShmev]

I finally bought this on DVD, after avoiding it for so long because of what I always considered a pretty mediocre-looking set list.  After watching it, though, I think a little more of it, thanks to Set 1 coming off better than it looks on paper.  The performances of Afterlife, Raise the Knife, Under a Glass Moon and Innocence Faded are all dynamite, and that is a nice rendition of Another Won.  And ending a set with The Spirit Carries On is always good.

On the flip side, Set 2 is largely unimpressive, for me.  I don't care for 6DOIT as a single piece, and having it as one track on the DVD is really annoying.  I like Vacant, but with the orchestra, no thanks. The Answer Lies Within and Sacrificed Sons were both snoozers.  However, the performance of Octavarium was pretty spectacular.  I mainly bought the DVD because I wanted that to be on at least one of the live DT DVDs I own.  Metropolis as the encore is obviously great. 

Ultimately, I think having the orchestra restricted them, as they obviously felt like they had to do songs that heavily featured strings, like 6DOIT (thanks to the overture) and The Answer Lies Within.  But it severely lessened the set list.

Overall, I'll give the set list a B-, but considering it was an anniversary show and set list, it only gets a C from me.

I agree Kev. I remember getting up the morning after and seeing the set, thinking, damn, I'm glad I got what I got in Boston the show before.

I remember getting home that night and checking dt.net to see what the set list was.  And when I did, I was like, "Wait, that is what they played?  That was their 20th anniversary set list?"  It was just so underwhelming.  And I was not alone in that regard at the time.