Notes of a new fan

[kirksnosehair]

Regardless of SC,  i've read in different occasions here that ADTOE is reminiscent I&W a lot and its like they took a lot of parts and remake them into a new album. I got very upset  when a band trying to sound the same like they did in an X album and by doing so they literally take songs stracture and copying it. i already heard ADTOE a tons of times and i'm afraid when i hear I&W with all the expectations to enjoy it at least like i enjoyed Awake, then to discover i've already heard these notes in a different form...i'm interested to hear your take.

Regarding the alleged similarities between A Dramatic Turn of Events and Images & Words: The claim that Dream Theater copied/pasted or plagiarized themselves is, frankly, absurd.   It's pretty damned entertaining, though, to read some of the elaborate rhetorical gymnastics that some folks on the internet were willing to do in order to compare the two albums.


Welcome to the internet 

[erwinrafael]

I think it would actually be a disservice to DT to listen to them from a subjective list of worst to best. I would prefer listening to them in order because it would enable you to appreciate the change in their music over time. I love Images and Words, but the "older me" now sees it not as their peak but as their breakthrough. Their music has grown older, they have grown older, and I have grown older with them. The "Mangini-era" actually feels like an older DT looking back at their younger selves and appreciating what elements in their music worked for them.

[erwinrafael]

Regardless of SC,  i've read in different occasions here that ADTOE is reminiscent I&W a lot and its like they took a lot of parts and remake them into a new album. I got very upset  when a band trying to sound the same like they did in an X album and by doing so they literally take songs stracture and copying it. i already heard ADTOE a tons of times and i'm afraid when i hear I&W with all the expectations to enjoy it at least like i enjoyed Awake, then to discover i've already heard these notes in a different form...i'm interested to hear your take.

Regarding the alleged similarities between A Dramatic Turn of Events and Images & Words: The claim that Dream Theater copied/pasted or plagiarized themselves is, frankly, absurd.   It's pretty damned entertaining, though, to read some of the elaborate rhetorical gymnastics that some folks on the internet were willing to do in order to compare the two albums.


Welcome to the internet 

I don't think they plagiarized themselves but it is amusing to see the similarities in structures of some songs. And it is not just verse-chorus-verse. Whether it  is intentional or not, we'll never know. I would prefer my interpretation that it is them looking at their younger selves and reinterpreting their classics.

Lost Not Forgotten, for instance, has a lot of structural similarities with Under A Glass Moon. I would not really put much thought into it if it is just verse-chorus-verse structural similarities but thei construction of the solos are structurally similar that it is amusing to listen to them back to back.

[jakepriest]

Lost Not Forgotten is a total ripoff of UAGM that has taken everything good about the song and ripped it to shreds.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

No.

[Tom Bombadil]

I certainly get the PMU and OTBOA comparison, but LNF sounds nothing like UaGM to me.

[sneakyblueberry]

Maiden have been using the same chord progression for 30 odd years. Metallica made Death Magnetic and plagiarised themselves.  AC/DC recorded one drum track in 1975 and have been speeding it up and slowing it down for use on every album for the last 40 years.  Sooner or later bands end up copying themselves, and tbh I think DT did it waaaaay before ADTOE

[King Postwhore]

Maiden have been using the same chord progression for 30 odd years. Metallica made Death Magnetic and plagiarised themselves.  AC/DC recorded one drum track in 1975 and have been speeding it up and slowing it down for use on every album for the last 40 years.  Sooner or later bands end up copying themselves, and tbh I think DT did it waaaaay before ADTOE

Exactly.  I LOL soooo loud when people complain that a band sounds like itself.

[erwinrafael]

I certainly get the PMU and OTBOA comparison, but LNF sounds nothing like UaGM to me.

They actually do not really sound alike. What they share is the same structure. I would try to put in the times in UAGM and LNF when each part kicks in although my time is not accurate because I only used Media Player to time this a few minutes ago.

Piano intro (LNF only) 0:10
Majestic slow intro  UAGM 0:00 LNF 0:42
Majestic slow intro, full band kicks in, kick drum and bass syncing with an underlying groove UAGM 0:27 LNF 0:42
Intro now done as a heavy riff, kick drum and bass groove continues UAGM 0:53 LNF 01:42
Fast section, band shows off (hehehe) UAGM 1:06 LNF 1:53
Stanza riff, 2 measures UAGM 1:19 LNF 2:31
First stanza, heavy rhythm UAGM 1:29 LNF 2:47
Second stanza, heavy rhythm, more "uplifting" sound compared to first verse UAGM 1:44 LNF  3:16
Chorus with drum pattern of a full line with snare on the downbeat alternating with a line with snare on the upbeat UAGM 2:08 LNF 3:46
Stanza riff, with play on irregular beats UAGM 2:35 LNF 4:27
Third stanza, not much riffing, light guitar work compared to first two stanzas UAGM 2:52 LNF 4:44
Fourth stanza, continue light guitar background UAGM 3:18 LNF 5:21
Chorus UAGM 3:31 LNF 5:40
Shredding/heavy riffing going to instrumental section UAGM 03:56  LNF 6:17
Slow playing with odd time signatures UAGM 3:59 LNF 6:22
Continue previous, drum establishes a regular underlying beat UAGM 4:17 LNF 6:33
Full band plays rhythm established in previous section UAGM 4:27 LNF 6:46
Guitar solo (UAGM has 4 sections, LNF has 3 sections) UAGM 4:37 LNF 7:10
Transition to keyboard solo, drum sets a new regular groove UAGM 5:30 LNF 8:07
Keyboard solo kicks in, drum continues groove set in previous section UAGM 5:47 LNF 8:23
Keyboard solo continues, drum changes pattern UAGM 5:59 LNF 8:37
Instrumental section closes with unison led by drum UAGM 6:10 LNF 8:52
Chorus UAGM 6:22 LNF 9:06
Intro riff as outro, full band UAGM 6:48 LND 9:46
End with drum-led unison


A case can also be made that Breaking All Illusions is structurally similar to Learning to Live and that the instrumental section of Outcry is structurally similar to Metropolis Pt. 1. It's not really a case of using the same riffs, same melody or same drum patterns. It's an amusing exercise.

[OsMosis2259]

Here ya go 

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150771825130184

[Gonza_1928DT]

When you finally reach SFam, you are gonna love it, it's the masterpiece of this band.

[kirksnosehair]

I certainly get the PMU and OTBOA comparison, but LNF sounds nothing like UaGM to me.

They actually do not really sound alike. What they share is the same structure. I would try to put in the times in UAGM and LNF when each part kicks in although my time is not accurate because I only used Media Player to time this a few minutes ago.

Piano intro (LNF only) 0:10
Majestic slow intro  UAGM 0:00 LNF 0:42
Majestic slow intro, full band kicks in, kick drum and bass syncing with an underlying groove UAGM 0:27 LNF 0:42
Intro now done as a heavy riff, kick drum and bass groove continues UAGM 0:53 LNF 01:42
Fast section, band shows off (hehehe) UAGM 1:06 LNF 1:53
Stanza riff, 2 measures UAGM 1:19 LNF 2:31
First stanza, heavy rhythm UAGM 1:29 LNF 2:47
Second stanza, heavy rhythm, more "uplifting" sound compared to first verse UAGM 1:44 LNF  3:16
Chorus with drum pattern of a full line with snare on the downbeat alternating with a line with snare on the upbeat UAGM 2:08 LNF 3:46
Stanza riff, with play on irregular beats UAGM 2:35 LNF 4:27
Third stanza, not much riffing, light guitar work compared to first two stanzas UAGM 2:52 LNF 4:44
Fourth stanza, continue light guitar background UAGM 3:18 LNF 5:21
Chorus UAGM 3:31 LNF 5:40
Shredding/heavy riffing going to instrumental section UAGM 03:56  LNF 6:17
Slow playing with odd time signatures UAGM 3:59 LNF 6:22
Continue previous, drum establishes a regular underlying beat UAGM 4:17 LNF 6:33
Full band plays rhythm established in previous section UAGM 4:27 LNF 6:46
Guitar solo (UAGM has 4 sections, LNF has 3 sections) UAGM 4:37 LNF 7:10
Transition to keyboard solo, drum sets a new regular groove UAGM 5:30 LNF 8:07
Keyboard solo kicks in, drum continues groove set in previous section UAGM 5:47 LNF 8:23
Keyboard solo continues, drum changes pattern UAGM 5:59 LNF 8:37
Instrumental section closes with unison led by drum UAGM 6:10 LNF 8:52
Chorus UAGM 6:22 LNF 9:06
Intro riff as outro, full band UAGM 6:48 LND 9:46
End with drum-led unison


A case can also be made that Breaking All Illusions is structurally similar to Learning to Live and that the instrumental section of Outcry is structurally similar to Metropolis Pt. 1. It's not really a case of using the same riffs, same melody or same drum patterns. It's an amusing exercise.

[deja vu] Thiago? [/deja vu]

[tjanuranus]

Images and Words is my favorite album of all time by anyone. Yeah... listen to that.

[mike099]

Images and Words is my favorite album of all time by anyone. Yeah... listen to that.

Agreed with Images and Words - Classic.  To the OP I will bet that FII is going to have a couple of songs you will love.

[Perpetual Change]

I think it was actually pretty obvious, "On the Backs of Angels" was the new "Pull Me Under". "Lost Not Forgotten" was the new "Under a Glass Moon". "Outcry" was the new "Metropolis". "Breaking All Illusions" was the new "Learning to Live". But the problem with comparing them too much is that while they're structurally similar, they don't sound very simillar. Plus, a lot of Thiago's other comparisons were really forced.

[erwinrafael]

Here ya go 

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150771825130184

Oh, so somebody else already did this? Hehehe. Sorry, I was not really active here until DT12'slaunch.

[OsMosis2259]

Here ya go 

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150771825130184

Oh, so somebody else already did this? Hehehe. Sorry, I was not really active here until DT12'slaunch.

Yeah this was big news when ADTOE was first released. 
Just google "images and words a dramatic turn of events" and you'll see what went down!

[erwinrafael]

Here ya go 

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150771825130184

Oh, so somebody else already did this? Hehehe. Sorry, I was not really active here until DT12'slaunch.

Yeah this was big news when ADTOE was first released. 
Just google "images and words a dramatic turn of events" and you'll see what went down!

OK. I re-listened to the albums again last night and I came to the conclusion that it really is just UAGM and LNF, and BAI and LTL. The others are quite forced.

I became aware of listening to structures because one of my favorite songwriters here in the Philippines filed an intellectual property theft claim against a huge TV network here for copying the song structure of a jingle that he composed.

[Rodni Demental]

Honestly, I can hear structural similarities in every I&W/ADTOE song except Surrounded/BMUBMD (which is the only one where I have to make assumptions that are a stretch). And Beneath the Surface doesn't have a counterpart.

Even the riffs in Bridges in the Sky follow a similar rhythm and structure to Take the Time. It's true.. I know those songs have completely different 'moods' and they have a totally different feel and expression to them, I know some of the comparisons appear forced when you hear people talking about their ideas but honestly if you took the time to compare you'd be convinced almost every section seems to have an influence that relates to another song, not necessarily by replicating key and chord structures, or melodically, just structurally. It's all there.. Even in Another Day/This is the Life, and Metropolis/Outcry.

HOWEVER, I don't see this as a bad thing, I thought it was the coolest thing ever. And I wouldn't claim to be much of a songwriter but I do a bit of composing and normally pay attention to the arrangement and structure of music, and let me say that what DT did with ADTOE is less of a rehash of ones own creative material than what most individuals/bands do. People find Chord progressions they like and they just run with them, and you'll be amazed how well you can disguise something familiar by changing the key or altering the motif slightly to get some variation. It's all the same. Minor keys love going up the relative major then land on the 5th. And the 6th degree of any scale is pretty much the sweet spot for Chorus' chord progressions. There's tricks to this stuff and it's all been done before. Also, DT have been playing with the same chords for ages, but it's all in the expression. You can make something sound completely different with the same patterns. For example, (forgive me if I'm wrong this is just off the top of my head) Build Me Up Break Me Down has the same Chorus structure as The Bigger Picture's guitar solo, is nearly the same as The Count of Tuscany's chorus. I III V being the key to that. Although the first two go to the IV while the count goes to the VI for it's 4th chord. And that's just what occurs to me atm, I'm absolutely certain if I listened through their discog I'd find more of that particular progression.

Although my point is it doesn't matter, I just don't think people realise how much music is constantly repeating itself (especially stuff you might hear on the radio), disguised by unique levels of diversity with each new way to express it.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I get that some of the structures are similar.

What I don't get is why anyone would give a fuck.

[son_ov_hades]

I get that some of the structures are similar.

What I don't get is why anyone would give a fuck.

+1

[Jaffa]

I get that some of the structures are similar.

What I don't get is why anyone would give a fuck.

Honestly, I think the whole thing just got blown way out of proportion.  I don't think anybody really did give much of a fuck, it just blew up because everybody likes arguing on the internet. 

I could be wrong, of course. 

[ThatOneGuy2112]

I get that some of the structures are similar.

What I don't get is why anyone would give a fuck.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I get that some of the structures are similar.

What I don't get is why anyone would give a fuck.

Honestly, I think the whole thing just got blown way out of proportion.  I don't think anybody really did give much of a fuck, it just blew up because everybody likes arguing on the internet. 

I could be wrong, of course. 

I disagree. Let us argue violently over this.

[Rodni Demental]

I don't think anyone's arguing violently, this is pretty much the place where we would discuss this stuff if anywhere. For me I was just issuing my perspective in regards to dismissing the idea as coincidence because I believe it was intentional on DTs behalf. 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I was kidding, thus the

[Rodni Demental]

 

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

[erwinrafael]

I get that some of the structures are similar.

What I don't get is why anyone would give a fuck.

Because it brings a smile to my face.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Lost Not Forgotten is a total ripoff of UAGM that has taken everything good about the song and ripped it to shreds.

Thiago? Is that you?

[OsMosis2259]

I get that some of the structures are similar.

What I don't get is why anyone would give a fuck.

[NotePad]

BC&SL is underrated I'd say. It's very typical for the band, but it's IMHO the best one out of DTs last 4 or 5 records. Best of Times is fantastic.

BTW how many of you guys would say I&W is more of a rock/prog-rock album then all else they've done? I'v heard this a lot and can see why now that I actually think of it.

[Rodni Demental]

I suppose it depends if we're talking a about prog or progressive music (they actually can have different meanings which is a bit ridiculous, but no more ridiculous than the state of music categorisation into genres as it is anyway). Personally I don't care what 'genre' music is in, I think the very idea can put a limitation on what you experience due to preconceptions or altered expectations, but I'll entertain the idea briefly. Really, I think all of Dream Theater's music is progressive music, especially relative to other genres like your average contemporary metal, alt/pop rock etc. Although relative to other 'prog' bands, some of their music wouldn't be considered 'prog' at all. I agree Images & Words is definitely one of their 'proggiest' efforts but those elements are retained in at least a handful of songs in all of their studio releases. Also, I think When Dream and Day Unite it arguably at least as proggy as I&W if not moreso. Also A Change of Seasons seems like an obvious one too (although I suppose a lot of that was written during the WDADU/I&W days anyway.

Prog. pretty much represents a type of 'classic' progressive music, in the sense that it feels progressive in a reminiscent sort of style to those first generation prog bands. Although really, any music can be progressive as soon as it starts breaking the conventions so to speak and forming it's own rules. So although the meaning hasn't exactly changed entirely, it's application needs to be differentiated if we want to try and categorise music.

[NotePad]

I'd rather DT be progressive in the not classic way of Rush or Genesis or whoever. But I dont want to start this discussion again!!!! Why do i always do this!?!?!?