"Without love, Without truth"

[JayOctavarium]

"There can be no turning back!"




Ok I saw Fatal Tragedy performed twice on the tour... and have listened to the 2013 Holiday Release more than LALP (meaning alot)... and I've listened to / seen LSFNY a hundred times....

As much as I enjoyed MP's backing vox (when they were actual backing vox and harmonies)... I think JP and JLB pull it off better. It just sounds.... great compared to Mike singing it. Which suprises me because I assumed, before hearing it on the tour, that it would sound like shit.


What do you guys think?

[Perpetual Change]

On LSFNY, I'm pretty sure all three singers are slightly off pitch. So not that one.

For the most recent tour, I'm pretty sure that JP is pre-recorded, along with whatever other background vocals James is singing. So not that one either.

Guess I gotta go with the last option.

[gmillerdrake]

Any combination that doesn't include MP. He's not even an 'OK' vocalist......he's a drummer. The only time his vocals even passed grade were the studio versions and even then it was questionable as to why 'he' was doing them in my eyes.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Petrucci & LaBrie. I was never a fan of Portnoy's voice...let alone his singing.

[?]

I love the backing vocals on the studio version, but they haven't sounded too convincing in the MP-era live versions I've heard. I think I have to vote for JLB & JP.

[Evermind]

On LSFNY, I'm pretty sure all three singers are slightly off pitch. So not that one.

For the most recent tour, I'm pretty sure that JP is pre-recorded, along with whatever other background vocals James is singing. So not that one either.

Guess I gotta go with the last option.

[rumborak]

While you can't really hear JP's vocals on the fan release, that's a ton better than the horrendous off-pitch singing on LSFNY.

[Kotowboy]

Option 6 : Sung well - whatever they go for.

[Sycsa]

I really miss MP's backing vocals, he has such a nice timbre on the studio version of FT. That said, I cannot ever unhear "You can eat my ass and balls", so I went with it.

[BRGM]

While you can't really hear JP's vocals on the fan release, that's a ton better than the horrendous off-pitch singing on LSFNY.

This! The studio version is terrific, but the LSFNY is pretty bad 

[425]

Well, I don't have LSFNY, so I'll be comparing the version on the Holiday release (which I just listened to for the first time just for the purpose of this comparison) to the studio version. And I much prefer the studio version. Nothing against James, but that part sounds so much nicer with Portnoy's and Petrucci's timbres than with any James involved at all. That part just sounds made for the call-and-response thing between James' higher voice and the lower chorus of Mike and John. James singing it makes the chorus sound much more bland and same-y than the Mike version, which really sets it apart as a chorus.

I can understand a little bit the dislike of Mike's harsher vocals, if a person didn't like that style of singing in general. But I've never understood any outright hatred for Mike's clean voice, which is very pleasant. Of course he doesn't have the range or versatility of James, but he's very versatile for a backing vocalist (doing stuff ranging from the clean harmonizations on SFAM to aggressive counterpoint on The Glass Prison and Constant Motion to near-growls on A Nightmare to Remember to falsetto in The Test That Stumped Them All) and I certainly miss his ability to provide a counterpoint to James on the last two albums.

John is good, too, but I think Mike has a more consistent voice and is, of course, a far more versatile singer.

[Sycsa]

While you can't really hear JP's vocals on the fan release, that's a ton better than the horrendous off-pitch singing on LSFNY.

This! The studio version is terrific, but the LSFNY is pretty bad 

Home is even worse. At the beginning, it sounds like LaBrie had enough of MP's emphasizing "eeeeaaaaaah" at the end of each line and mocks him.

[Perpetual Change]

While you can't really hear JP's vocals on the fan release, that's a ton better than the horrendous off-pitch singing on LSFNY.

This! The studio version is terrific, but the LSFNY is pretty bad 

Home is even worse. At the beginning, it sounds like LaBrie had enough of MP's emphasizing "eeeeaaaaaah" at the end of each line and mocks him.

Yeah, it doesn't matter if you think you have perfect pitch or relative pitch or whatever MP has said he has when you're gonna sing like that.

[rumborak]

I will never understand what drove MP to sing that way at a concert that was being filmed for a DVD. I mean, it's one of the most basic rules of background vocals: You try to blend with the main singer's voice as much as possible.

[425]

I just gave that bit of Home from LSFNY a listen via Spotify, and while it doesn't work, I don't really see what is so scandalously awful about anything Mike does there. And I don't think Mike has ever been a major proponent of "blending in with the main singer's voice". His backing vocals have always been about texture, otherwise, he wouldn't sing for the albums and just double track James (which, of course, is what happened post-MP). My favorite instance of Mike singing for texture is "Never could have just a part of it/Always need more to get by" on The Root of All Evil. Mike is clearly not trying to blend with James there, there's two distinct voices there, and intentionally so. And for that, it's my favorite part of the song. I think he was probably trying to do something similar with texture in that part of Home, and it just didn't work out in that instance. So yeah, he probably should have not tried that experiment on the night of DVD filming, but I also disagree that he should have been trying to "blend in" with James.

[BlobVanDam]

JP + MP by far. It sounds really weird having a call and response vocal, where the main vocalist has to jump in instead. It makes the phrasing sound completely off. It's the best compromise they could make, but it's still a step down. The verses also sound bare without the additional vocal, being the 3 part harmony of the first verse, then the 2 part harmony of the later verse (which JP should have done).
The MP/JP backing vocals are something I really enjoyed and miss, especially from SFAM/LSFNY.

[Ruba]

I haven't heard LFSNY or the new release, because I'm not a fan of live albums (DVDs are okay). Even though Fatal Tragedy is overrated IMO, it's not bad, so I voted I don't care.

Fifth alternative.

[Rodni Demental]

90% sure that JPs vocals on the 'Holiday' release had some wave correction post production. Or they were pre-recordings triggered during the show (I'm gonna lean towards the first option though.) So, I'm gonna have to go with 'eat my ass and balls' on this one. That being said, I actually don't mind vocal correction so long as they don't flat line it and make it sound incredibly fake (Wither JP vocal version for example). I don't mind what they've been doing with backup vocals at LALP, it's been interesting to see how certain songs like: tRoaE, tDEN and WIMH/tTTSTA have turned out.

MP backups are definitely gonna be missed. And I think we're barely scratching the surface of certain songs where John/James are gonna have to pick up the slack, all things considered: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=39403.msg1692509#msg1692509

[RodrigoAltaf]

I really miss MP´s backing vocals live. He has improved A LOT vocal wise - listen to him singing Fool in My Heart and Repentance with Flying Colors on their first tour - he does both songs perfectly!

[DebraKadabra]

No studio version option?

Oh, and the "ass and balls" refrain can die a quick death.

[Prog Snob]

2013 in the house... NAILED IT

[rumborak]

Oh, and the "ass and balls" refrain can die a quick death.

I agree. Sometimes less is Moore.

[Daso]

What was done with the backing vocals on LaLP? I know LaBrie used some triggered harmonies in some songs from ADToE and on TDEN, but I think I can hear him doing both vocals and backing vocals on the last choruses The Silent Man, for example. Are there triggered harmonies there as well?

[Grizz]

I think that there were a lot of triggered harmonies throughout the ADToE tour, especially considering that the songs were played to a click (as they never had before). Some were done by Petrucci, but many of those were cut from LaLP. I know for a fact that the falsetto in TTtStA was triggered.

[Daso]

It does make sense in some parts, like that falsetto and TDEN's "harsh" vocals. Both were sang by MP before. The thing is, most of those are kind of replies, or phrases to be sang by a secondary voice, and perhaps they preferred the triggered sound to JP's vocals (which does make sense, considering the triggers are JLB's voice). But it does seem weird to me that they'd trigger backing vocals on a chorus like The Silent Man's.

[TheAtliator]

they actually didn't trigger the two acoustic songs. I think those were the only real backing vocals for the night. But yea for OTBOA, TW, BITS etc, I wish they'd just have JP do it for real like toward the beginning of the tour.

[Sycsa]

But yea for OTBOA, TW, BITS etc, I wish they'd just have JP do it for real like toward the beginning of the tour.

+ 1
I don't ever see it happening at this point, but one of my biggest wishes for the upcoming tour would be that they dropped the triggered backing vocals, as well as the click track.

[JiM-Xtreme]

But yea for OTBOA, TW, BITS etc, I wish they'd just have JP do it for real like toward the beginning of the tour.

+ 1
I don't ever see it happening at this point, but one of my biggest wishes for the upcoming tour would be that they dropped the triggered backing vocals, as well as the click track.

+ 1

I noticed it a lot more on the Xmas release than LaLP, but alot of the songs feel a lot less "organic" in a live setting nowadays. IMO click tracks are fine in the practice room or the studio, but should not be used live unless the song is absolutely impossible to play otherwise.

[aprilethereal]

I don't mind the triggered vocals, but the fact that JP pretends to sing them although he obviously doesn't and it's clearly JLB's voice really annoys me. TDEN at Luna Park is a perfect example.

[mikeyd23]

+ 1
I don't ever see it happening at this point, but one of my biggest wishes for the upcoming tour would be that they dropped the triggered backing vocals, as well as the click track.

+ 1

I noticed it a lot more on the Xmas release than LaLP, but alot of the songs feel a lot less "organic" in a live setting nowadays. IMO click tracks are fine in the practice room or the studio, but should not be used live unless the song is absolutely impossible to play otherwise.

Huh, maybe I'm the minority on this one, but I like playing to a click track live. It keeps everything nice and tight and ensures that the drummer can't take the tempo in one direction or another at any point in time depending on his mood. 

I think musically, DT sounds tighter than ever on LaLP and as I am listening to the Holiday Album, it sounds like more really tight playing. So if the click track has played a part in that, then I'm cool with it.   As far as the triggered vocals go, I would rather not have them, but if the band really feels like there are parts that JP can't sing vocally, then he shouldn't fake singing them he should just let it be known that its a triggered vocal, as pretty much everyone can tell it is anyway, lol.

[BlobVanDam]

+ 1
I don't ever see it happening at this point, but one of my biggest wishes for the upcoming tour would be that they dropped the triggered backing vocals, as well as the click track.

+ 1

I noticed it a lot more on the Xmas release than LaLP, but alot of the songs feel a lot less "organic" in a live setting nowadays. IMO click tracks are fine in the practice room or the studio, but should not be used live unless the song is absolutely impossible to play otherwise.

Huh, maybe I'm the minority on this one, but I like playing to a click track live. It keeps everything nice and tight and ensures that the drummer can't take the tempo in one direction or another at any point in time depending on his mood. 

That's actually one thing I don't like about click tracks so much, because the drummer can't take the tempo in the direction that the live mood may dictate. Some sections just lend themselves to different tempos in the live setting, and sometimes what works perfectly on the studio recording feels a bit plodding when you translate it live, even though in some cases it can be a double edged sword, when too fast a live tempo can ruin the feel of the song.
In most cases the click is just fine, and it does have many benefits too, but there are a few instances on LALP and the Christmas release where the song just feels that bit too slow to me, especially the heavy section of Peruvian Skies, TROAE, or the outro of TSCO. Maybe they could remedy that by adjusting the live click track to a tempo that suits the song better live, rather than sticking to the studio tempo, which would probably be a win-win.

And agreed on what you said about the backup vocals.

[mikeyd23]

That's actually one thing I don't like about click tracks so much, because the drummer can't take the tempo in the direction that the live mood may dictate. Some sections just lend themselves to different tempos in the live setting, and sometimes what works perfectly on the studio recording feels a bit plodding when you translate it live, even though in some cases it can be a double edged sword, when too fast a live tempo can ruin the feel of the song.

I see your point and its a good one.  Honestly, I've found over the years of playing live that for me personally, the genre of the music being played helps dictate whether or not to use a click. For example, I pretty much always play to a click track when I'm playing with my band, a heavy rock band, but I used to play in a blues band and the thought of playing that style of music to a click just doesn't make sense to me.  DT is an interesting breed because they do blend different styles together, but overall I'd say the click does make sense for them, as most of their music is based on a heavy rock/metal feel, which, IMO, lends itself to click tracks well.

In most cases the click is just fine, and it does have many benefits too, but there are a few instances on LALP and the Christmas release where the song just feels that bit too slow to me, especially the heavy section of Peruvian Skies, TROAE, or the outro of TSCO. Maybe they could remedy that by adjusting the live click track to a tempo that suits the song better live, rather than sticking to the studio tempo, which would probably be a win-win.

I actually thought about posting this before you mentioned it and didn't but I totally agree.  I think bumping the BPM up a few clicks on certain songs could be good for them to give those tunes a little extra kick. 

Either way, it seems like, from many interviews, MM is really into the idea of playing the songs to click. Also if they continue to use triggered vocals, thats going to force them to use a click track, so it seems like love it or hate, thats how its going to be!

[BlobVanDam]

That's actually one thing I don't like about click tracks so much, because the drummer can't take the tempo in the direction that the live mood may dictate. Some sections just lend themselves to different tempos in the live setting, and sometimes what works perfectly on the studio recording feels a bit plodding when you translate it live, even though in some cases it can be a double edged sword, when too fast a live tempo can ruin the feel of the song.

I see your point and its a good one.  Honestly, I've found over the years of playing live that for me personally, the genre of the music being played helps dictate whether or not to use a click. For example, I pretty much always play to a click track when I'm playing with my band, a heavy rock band, but I used to play in a blues band and the thought of playing that style of music to a click just doesn't make sense to me.  DT is an interesting breed because they do blend different styles together, but overall I'd say the click does make sense for them, as most of their music is based on a heavy rock/metal feel, which, IMO, lends itself to click tracks well.

In most cases the click is just fine, and it does have many benefits too, but there are a few instances on LALP and the Christmas release where the song just feels that bit too slow to me, especially the heavy section of Peruvian Skies, TROAE, or the outro of TSCO. Maybe they could remedy that by adjusting the live click track to a tempo that suits the song better live, rather than sticking to the studio tempo, which would probably be a win-win.

I actually thought about posting this before you mentioned it and didn't but I totally agree.  I think bumping the BPM up a few clicks on certain songs could be good for them to give those tunes a little extra kick. 

Either way, it seems like, from many interviews, MM is really into the idea of playing the songs to click. Also if they continue to use triggered vocals, thats going to force them to use a click track, so it seems like love it or hate, thats how its going to be!

Overall I'm all for it, and I agree it makes sense for them given the precision of their music, it's just those few moments as I mentioned where it feels like they should bump up the tempo a notch. That might be a bit fiddly given that it may require re-recording the backup vocals at the new tempo, and editing the video and lighting to match etc, so it might be too much trouble for them. A minor con against the pros of using a click.

[moof]

Endless sacrifice is the one that upsets me most, the rocking part after the instrumental section used to be played much faster with Portnoy and now it sounds really slow and lame. I dunno if that's because of the click track or what but I really noticed that when I saw them on the ADTOE tour.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't know, MP was notorious for playing things too fast live.