Does the "Live at Luna Park" show lack momentum?

[Perpetual Change]

While the Luna Park show is great, probably the best DT we have on film, I have to say that I feel like the performance lacks momentum. "Bridges in the Sky" is a good, energetic opener, but the energy level dips with "6:00", which has just never been a great live song. "The Dark Eternal Night" brings the energy level back up, but "This is the Life" takes it back down. "Lost Not Forgotten" manages to reel the crowd and the band's energy back in, and then it's solo time (the solo is great, but momentum-breaking anyway). Finally DT fire on all cylinders for "A Fortune in Lies", before undoing that energy with the acoustic set.

One of the few complaints about the show is that the crowd doesn't seem that engaged, at least by South American standards. This is apparent on the DVD, and posters who attended like Nekov also have noted that reaction was not as outwardly enthusiastic as usual.

After finally watching the show myself, I think we can chalk up the crowd's enthusiam not to the crowd being disappointing, but to the band simply playing the songs in the wrong order. Instead of following up "Bridges in the Sky" with "6:00", they could have followed it up with one of their faster, more intense songs, and gone back to 6:00 later.

Comments? Agree? Disagree?

[Perpetual Change]

Also, since I'm sure this will come up - MP being in the band wouldn't have necessarily made the setlist better. On Score, the same issues occurs, with "The Root of All Evil" followed-up by "I Walk Beside You". Difference is, on Score the momentum gets brought back up for awhile with the next three songs.

[The Stray Seed]

Mmmm... I would have yelled my lungs out all the way through with that setlist.

[TheGreatPretender]

Personally, I find that LAB lacked momentum. Not at first, it builds and builds and builds, and then as soon as the Instrumedley is done, the momentum just absolutely plummets, and only manages to pick up a little bit right up until the encore, at which point it hits the roof again. But yeah, to me, that's an all time biggest momentum drop in any DT concert. Honestly, like, after the Instrumedley, it's like, "Okay, I've seen all the highlights of the show, might as well turn it off now." Or at least fastforward through most of the latter half. It does pick up with SOC, but everthing between the Instrumedley and that is a bit of a grind. And it's not that I don't like those songs, I do, but they really should've been done closer to the beginning of the set, and saved all the good stuff for the middle and through to the end of the show, instead of at the beginning.

With Score, I think it goes up and down here and there, but that way it manages to maintain a good balance all the way through, and I think Luna Park does the same.

I guess it depends on what one would consider a good set.
Personally, I think that a set needs to start out really strong, then ease up just a little, and then start building the real momentum as it goes into the second half of the set, and in that respect, I think LAB and Score get it pretty well. Score did have the orchestra to help give a new, fuller and more powerful dynamic to every single thing they did on the second half. But with LALP, I think they keep a pretty consistent balance all throughout. The only thing that I would change about it, really, is replacing the two songs from Six Degrees, perhaps with something more interesting like Misunderstood or Blind Faith. But aside from that, I thought it was a pretty stellar set.

[KevShmev]

Totally disagree.  I think the set list flows very well and, considering the songs played, could not have been any better (unless you took out the keyboard and guitar solos, which woulda been fine with me).

[Mladen]

I haven't seen the DVD yet, but they followed Bridges in the sky with 6:00 when I saw them about two years ago and I went absolutely bananas. It was the best way to open the show as far as I'm concerned. The set list for the DVD is different to the one at my live show, but I'll still have to watch the stuff myself and decide about the momentum thing.

[bosk1]

Totally disagree.  I think the set list flows very well and, considering the songs played, could not have been any better (unless you took out the keyboard and guitar solos, which woulda been fine with me).

This.

[Perpetual Change]

Heh.

I like all the songs they played, but as I was watching it, I did feel a bit like I was on a roller coaster, not sure if the band were trying to build me up, or break me down 

[KevShmev]

This Is the Life was perfectly placed in the set list.  After three rockers like that, it makes sense to bring it down a bit with a song like that; perfectly timed.  And the acoustic set was in the middle of the show, a perfect time for it. 

[Perpetual Change]

I actually think the pacing is great after the set - actually the end of the concert was more exciting for me than the beginning.

[Tick]

I'm ok with the flow PC, but I would translate and equate your thoughts to basically saying you believe Mike Portnoy was better at constructing a set list? Is that accurate?

Score was a magical set list indeed, but I really love the vibe the band puts out in this show. It seems like a band that is very energized and looks happy. They look like a band with something to prove to the fans and to themselves. They also seem to be making the statement that contrary to what some fans may feel about MP's departure, reports of Dream Theaters demise are greatly exagerated.

[JediKnight1969]

Totally disagree.  I think the set list flows very well and, considering the songs played, could not have been any better (unless you took out the keyboard and guitar solos, which woulda been fine with me).

This.

Agree.

I'd be happy with no more guitar & keyboard solos. I'd prefer two more songs instead.

[Cable]

I never even thought about the pacing of any DT show or recording, but it could be a valid point! Considering the aforementioned lack of crowd motion, as I expected that at least as it was in the South American region.

Was the main set list on the disc (not separate songs) truly one night? I thought it was going to be a selection of both nights?

[JediKnight1969]

Main show is 1st night full.
2nd night they changed some songs. They're the bonus material.
I know. I was there.

[mikeyd23]

Main show is 1st night full.
2nd night they changed some songs. They're the bonus material.
I know. I was there.

Well the main show on the DVD is the same set list as the first night, right?  That doesn't mean all the video on the main concert portion is from the first night, seeing how they played many songs on both the first and second night, it appears that they were using shots from both nights during the concert.  In fact it appears that they were using shots from both nights mid-song for songs that were played both nights, so the crowd shots and reactions on the main concert I assume are not all from the first night either. That might have something to do with the crowd's momentum being a little "off".  If they were just splicing shots together from both nights then the feel of the crowd could have been alter or lost a little in translation.

[seasonsinthesky]

Main show is 1st night full.
2nd night they changed some songs. They're the bonus material.
I know. I was there.

Well the main show on the DVD is the same set list as the first night, right?  That doesn't mean all the video on the main concert portion is from the first night, seeing how they played many songs on both the first and second night, it appears that they were using shots from both nights during the concert.  In fact it appears that they were using shots from both nights mid-song for songs that were played both nights, so the crowd shots and reactions on the main concert I assume are not all from the first night either. That might have something to do with the crowd's momentum being a little "off".  If they were just splicing shots together from both nights then the feel of the crowd could have been alter or lost a little in translation.

are we talking about crowd reaction, though, or just the momentum of the song choices in general? they're two different beasts — and Luna Park isn't a great source to judge the former, since a ton of fake crowd noise is layered around whatever source crowd sounds are mixed in. it's entirely possible they backed off the crowd for whatever reason, such as clarifying the mix of the music itself so it sounds better (even though real crowds never quiet down that much, unless you're in Japan or it's an acoustic set or something).

i have to agree the song order hit me weirdly as well — in fact, i found BITS somewhat offputting/boring as the opener, and i generally dislike "6:00" and TDEN, so it was tough for me to get into much until the end of TDEN (because that riff is just epic, and so is JR's ridiculous soloing over it!). these are opinions i had anyway on the songs themselves rather than the specific performances, though.

[wolfking]

I pretty much agree with the OP.  I just find the whole setlist bland and IMO really hurts the DVD.  Playing practically the whole ADTOE album doesn't help either.  I would drop LNF, TITL and BTS at least.

[BlobVanDam]

I pretty much agree with the OP.  I just find the whole setlist bland and IMO really hurts the DVD.  Playing practically the whole ADTOE album doesn't help either.  I would drop LNF, TITL and BTS at least.

While I'm not a big fan of ADTOE either, I always like their latest DVD to include as much new material as possible, because it's the stuff we haven't heard a hundred times before, and can help you appreciate the stuff you didn't enjoy on the album so much.
And even though BTS is one of my least liked from the album, it worked well for the acoustic set with the string section.

[wolfking]

I will say it did make me enjoy Outcry a lot more than I use to.

[BlobVanDam]

Not even on LALP will I ever listen to Outcry. But I enjoyed the live version of OTBOA more than the studio one, and BITS a little more too (although that was among my favourites anyway).

[wolfking]

BITS was one that I always didn't mind.  I prefer the studio version as James is pretty shaky on that one.

I don't mean to slag but it made me realise even more how boring LNF is.  Sorry, I just can't get into that song.  That fast section in the incredible was incredible to watch though.

[Jinx]

I just rewatched Outcry and it turns out the one on the DVD is actually the one from Night 2. During the instrumental section the camera hovers over JRs head and you can clearly see 'Build Me Up Break Me Down', 'These Walls' and 'Wait For Sleep' on the setlist on the floor. My theory is the start is from Night 1 and then when that (unforgiveable) cockup occurs where JLB shouts in audio but not on the video, it is switched to Night 2.

About those editing faults. There really is no excuse for them. I was watching with a mate a few weeks back and he noticed it, then coupled with the lack of crowd noise was convinced that they werent playing it live.

I just hope and pray that they use a better company tha  Over The Edge if they are going to release a recording from this tour...

[kirksnosehair]

Totally disagree.  I think the set list flows very well and, considering the songs played, could not have been any better (unless you took out the keyboard and guitar solos, which woulda been fine with me).

This.

Agree.

I'd be happy with no more guitar & keyboard solos. I'd prefer two more songs instead.

This.  Cubed.

[Grizz]

To the people criticizing the production, I'm right with you. The video quality is great, except when panning across the empty seats. (Lots of grainy compression.) The sound is off-puttingly clean. Look at Score, for example. Noisy, echo-ey, you can hear the crowd; on the other hand, we have LaLP and LSfNY, the latter of which feels like a long music video on a shitty soundstage.
With LaLP, one part stands out too me with the lack of crowd noise:
"Intro tape begins to roll." *Silence*

[ariich]

I think a large part of the reduced crowd enthusiasm is because it was a seated concert, rather than the usual standing gig. It just doesn't get the energy going as much, but it's the approach that DT opt for these days, for some reason.

[Onno]

The show doesn't lack momentum. The mix is bad, the production is bad, the crowd is inaudible. The overall sound is just bad.

[Grizz]

I think a large part of the reduced crowd enthusiasm is because it was a seated concert, rather than the usual standing gig. It just doesn't get the energy going as much, but it's the approach that DT opt for these days, for some reason.

I think our audience have become a little bit more attentive and less of that type of [mosh] mentality [...] I understand you want to release that energy... [but] once people start doing that during "Through Her Eyes" it gets ridiculous [...] So this time around we're consciously aiming at theaters that people can actually sit down and enjoy the show and be comfortable [...] without having to worry about their legs falling off or being kicked in the face by a Mosh Pit. So [that] will probably eliminate that problem anyway.

That seems to have influenced the type of venues they play at to this day, with the exception of the summer 2010 tour.

Ironically enough, before heading on stage for my first show in 2009, he criticized the state of Connecticut for not being energetic at the concerts.

[PolarizeMe]

I just rewatched Outcry and it turns out the one on the DVD is actually the one from Night 2. During the instrumental section the camera hovers over JRs head and you can clearly see 'Build Me Up Break Me Down', 'These Walls' and 'Wait For Sleep' on the setlist on the floor. My theory is the start is from Night 1 and then when that (unforgiveable) cockup occurs where JLB shouts in audio but not on the video, it is switched to Night 2.

About those editing faults. There really is no excuse for them. I was watching with a mate a few weeks back and he noticed it, then coupled with the lack of crowd noise was convinced that they werent playing it live.

I just hope and pray that they use a better company tha  Over The Edge if they are going to release a recording from this tour...

Sounds like the editor at Over The Edge f**ked up in the video/audio sync department. I'm studying film editing in college right now (editing concert videos would be a dream for me!) and I also picked up several questionable moments where the video/audio didn't seem to sync up to what's seen or heard. I agree, they should pull the plug on Over The Edge although they could've done much worse IMO. Any production company other than them would do, but I think it would be great if Banger Films who did the Iron Maiden Flight 666 and Rush Time Machine 2011 DVDs were to film the next Dream Theater DVD.

[rumborak]

Given how they mentioned that this type of thing was the first time for Over the Edge, I'm sure they were daaaamn cheap.

[a8ac]

To the people criticizing the production, I'm right with you. The video quality is great, except when panning across the empty seats. (Lots of grainy compression.) The sound is off-puttingly clean. Look at Score, for example. Noisy, echo-ey, you can hear the crowd; on the other hand, we have LaLP and LSfNY, the latter of which feels like a long music video on a shitty soundstage.
With LaLP, one part stands out too me with the lack of crowd noise:
"Intro tape begins to roll." *Silence*

This.

[Implode]

I thought the setlist was excellent actually. The only complaints I have are the uses of click tracks and recorded back vocals, but it's not bad enough to ruin the show for me. I think it's one of the best live releases from the band so far.

[Perpetual Change]

I just rewatched Outcry and it turns out the one on the DVD is actually the one from Night 2. During the instrumental section the camera hovers over JRs head and you can clearly see 'Build Me Up Break Me Down', 'These Walls' and 'Wait For Sleep' on the setlist on the floor. My theory is the start is from Night 1 and then when that (unforgiveable) cockup occurs where JLB shouts in audio but not on the video, it is switched to Night 2.

About those editing faults. There really is no excuse for them. I was watching with a mate a few weeks back and he noticed it, then coupled with the lack of crowd noise was convinced that they werent playing it live.

I just hope and pray that they use a better company tha  Over The Edge if they are going to release a recording from this tour...

Yeah, so have I, not counting tons of moments where's people's lips or hands aren't visible to what they're actually singing or playing. Kinda makes me curious how the 360 app is in that department.

Sounds like the editor at Over The Edge f**ked up in the video/audio sync department. I'm studying film editing in college right now (editing concert videos would be a dream for me!) and I also picked up several questionable moments where the video/audio didn't seem to sync up to what's seen or heard. I agree, they should pull the plug on Over The Edge although they could've done much worse IMO. Any production company other than them would do, but I think it would be great if Banger Films who did the Iron Maiden Flight 666 and Rush Time Machine 2011 DVDs were to film the next Dream Theater DVD.

[kirksnosehair]

I thought the setlist was excellent actually. The only complaints I have are the uses of click tracks and recorded back vocals, but it's not bad enough to ruin the show for me. I think it's one of the best live releases from the band so far.

Click tracks for live performances are very common now.  Especially for bands like Dream Theater who used sequenced content to fatten up their live sound. 


Doesn't bother me one bit.


As far at the "energy" at the shows goes, I very much prefer to sit.  And that's why I almost always go with balcony seats.  This time I got front-row balcony, which guarantees that I can sit and enjoy the entire concert without some drunk knucklehead spilling beer on my shoes while he tries to dance in 5/4 

[TAC]

The whole click track thing doesn't bother me either, especially when you are in attendance. The band sure is tight, but they are playing. That's impressive. The only drawback is that it takes a certain "live-ness" out of the live album when listening.

1st row balcony, Kirk? That's awesome. I had 2nd row balcony middle for the Orpheum show in '10, and all I did was stare straight down on Mangini.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Agree that 6:00 sapped the energy gained from Bridges. 6:00 is not a good song, live or recorded. I didn't find any value in experiencing it live. It was a throw-away song very early on.