Do you think DT's epics are incohesive?

[mikemangioy]

to me, instead, IT is very cohesive and the most incohesive is Octavarium. The song is beyond amazing but I personally think that it sounds like three completely different tunes.

[ErHaO]

Octavarium has always sounded pretty cohesive to me, A Change of Seasons too, though to a lesser degree. Most of their other epics, however, feature some pretty blunt and abrupt transitions to my ears. In the case of IT I have this feeling pretty clear. I absolutely love the different parts though and think it is a killer track. I have been listening to this one track all day now, haha.

But if I listen to The Odyssey/Divine Wings of Tragedy of Symphony X, The Great Escape from Seventh Wonder or And Then There Was Silence by Blind Guardian (I know, it is much shorter, but is does contain a lot of different parts), for example, I do not encounter this feeling. But as long as the quality of the music is good, which is always the case for DT (okay, save for some very few exceptions), I don't really mind. Sometimes these sudden moments even add to the music. And when I have heard a track more often, I usually get used to abrupt transitions.

IT, cohesive or not, might become one of my favorite epics in the genre. As are most of the DT epics.

[kirksnosehair]

ACOS is probably the best-written epic that Dream Theater has in terms of how the song flows from part to part.  The transitions seem pretty organic and nothing is too jarring or sudden.


ITPoE isn't bad.  In fact, I think it's one of their better long songs, but I don't think the two halves go together that well.


Octavarium is -to me- the biggest offender in the Dream Theater catalog as far as sudden/patchy/jarring changes go.  I've always felt that it sounded like 3 or 4 different tracks just kind of bolted together.


Six Degrees IS a bunch of individual tracks.  I've never thought of it as one piece.


Illumination Theory is probably about even with Octavarium in terms of rough transitions, but I think the lyrics make a LOT more sense.  I am not sure what I think about the orchestral section yet.  It's a nice melody, but I don't know if it advances the song in any tangible way.  It just kind of -mountains come out of the sky and they stand there-ISH   

[snapple]

in a word (regarding the thread title): no.

[tofee35]

In general, I think the transitions within the epics hurt the songs more than the parts they are transitioning in and out of; abrupt stops, transient white noise, total changes in pace, long segways, etc.

There are some songs that feel like epics, but aren't as long as the "epics" ie: Stream of Consciousness, Blind Faith, Hell's Kitchen, A Nightmare to Remember, and Breaking All Illusions to name a few. They feel this way because they have various parts that transition together, layer on top of one another, and/or build up to triumphant climax that bring you on this miniature journey for 10 minutes. 

[Nearmyth]

Octavarium is probably the most cohesive. Each part transitions to the next without any abrupt or crazy time and tempo changes. It flows very nicely, and I fail to see how it doesn't. Maybe Someone Like Him --> Medicate is a bit awkward? A little? I think? Not really.

I can't really speak for ITPOE because of it being broken into two parts, but it's pretty cohesive as a full 25 minute song, nothing crazy or awkward.
'
SDIOT is cohesive with all 8 parts. I can't deny that. But not as cohesive as the others. I'm in the crowd that thinks of it as one song, but with 8 "tracks." Like how ITPOE is one "song" split between two tracks. But each of the parts transition quite nicely, the only abrupt changes are probably From War -> Test, or Solitary Shell -> Reprise.

ACOS has more abrupt time and tempo changes between parts... Yet still feels very connected and cohesive, probably because the whole song shares one "sound" in a way, where as other DT epics can tread in multiple sounds or genres. It has that whole I&W-Awake era metal sound, with dreamy keys and soft parts.

IT is probably the least cohesive. Though it is a great song. I feel like it rushes a bit. All DT epics are like this: An intro, overture of sorts, to the part with lyrics which is like the exposition, followed by a second part with lyrics which are like a "rising action" sort of thing (Carpe Diem, Medicate, Parts 3-6 of SDOIT, etc.), and then the rest of the song yadda yadda.  IT sort of lacked that "rising action" part.

The Pursuit of Truth is a great part with where it's placed and definitely builds tension, but in IT it went straight from heavy in-your-face super awesome introduction and exposition (Live Die Kill) to... ambience and a baroque era sounding piece by an orchestra? Which then leads straight to the build up and epic instrumental section to the climax.

[The Stray Seed]

in a word (regarding the thread title): no.

[Podaar]

Negative. No I do not.

[Lucien]

Octavarium is probably the most cohesive. Each part transitions to the next without any abrupt or crazy time and tempo changes. It flows very nicely, and I fail to see how it doesn't. Maybe Someone Like Him --> Medicate is a bit awkward? A little? I think? Not really.

I can't really speak for ITPOE because of it being broken into two parts, but it's pretty cohesive as a full 25 minute song, nothing crazy or awkward.
'
SDIOT is cohesive with all 8 parts. I can't deny that. But not as cohesive as the others. I'm in the crowd that thinks of it as one song, but with 8 "tracks." Like how ITPOE is one "song" split between two tracks. But each of the parts transition quite nicely, the only abrupt changes are probably From War -> Test, or Solitary Shell -> Reprise.

ACOS has more abrupt time and tempo changes between parts... Yet still feels very connected and cohesive, probably because the whole song shares one "sound" in a way, where as other DT epics can tread in multiple sounds or genres. It has that whole I&W-Awake era metal sound, with dreamy keys and soft parts.

IT is probably the least cohesive. Though it is a great song. I feel like it rushes a bit. All DT epics are like this: An intro, overture of sorts, to the part with lyrics which is like the exposition, followed by a second part with lyrics which are like a "rising action" sort of thing (Carpe Diem, Medicate, Parts 3-6 of SDOIT, etc.), and then the rest of the song yadda yadda.  IT sort of lacked that "rising action" part.

The Pursuit of Truth is a great part with where it's placed and definitely builds tension, but in IT it went straight from heavy in-your-face super awesome introduction and exposition (Live Die Kill) to... ambience and a baroque era sounding piece by an orchestra? Which then leads straight to the build up and epic instrumental section to the climax.

[Lucidity]

ITPoE isn't bad.  In fact, I think it's one of their better long songs, but I don't think the two halves go together that well.

I agree. Even if the band considers it one track, it feels more like a concept album to me. If we're counting Six Degrees as one song, we may as well count SFaM as one song.

[dparrott]

I don't think too much about it or analyze music like this, I just enjoy it.

[BlobVanDam]

ITPoE isn't bad.  In fact, I think it's one of their better long songs, but I don't think the two halves go together that well.

I agree. Even if the band considers it one track, it feels more like a concept album to me. If we're counting Six Degrees as one song, we may as well count SFaM as one song.

Well no, because SFAM has never been considered a song. It's a concept album. SDOIT is a song.

[Outcrier]

If SDOIT DISC 2 was released as just one disc (and maybe be a bit longer), it would be a concept album too.

[manticore999]

Of course they're incohesive.  Based on how they just jam and then stick stuff together to make 'songs' there's no way they can't sound a little disjointed.  Sometimes they do better at it than others, but that's kind of their style.

[RaiseTheKnife]

My only discord with Six Degrees is that it at its release it was lauded for its daring length, but this argument always came across as gimmicky to me.  *SNIP*

I never listen to the "Six Degrees" from beginning to end, because (a) I've always heard it as 8 different songs tied together with a couple of reccuring themes, and (2) one  track is not dependent on the next, so I can listen to track 2 without feeling that I am missing the  totality of song.   

[425]

If SDOIT DISC 2 was released as just one disc (and maybe be a bit longer), it would be a concept album too.

No, it would be an album that consists entirely of one song.

[King Postwhore]

If SDOIT DISC 2 was released as just one disc (and maybe be a bit longer), it would be a concept album too.

No, it would be an album that consists entirely of one song.

Yeah, cause there is no thread involved in the "One song".

[Buddyhunter1]

Well no, because SFAM has never been considered a song. It's a concept album. SDOIT is a song.

Honestly, what's the difference? They're both long pieces split into multiple tracks that segue into each other and share multiple motifs.

[KevShmev]

Well no, because SFAM has never been considered a song. It's a concept album. SDOIT is a song.

Honestly, what's the difference? They're both long pieces split into multiple tracks that segue into each other and share multiple motifs.

Right.  It is pretty much the exact same formula, except that they called 6DOIT one song and made Scenes a whole album.  But imagine if Disc 1 of 6DOIT and Scenes had been written at the same time and released as a double album.  Scenes from a Memory would have been called one song (had they still decided to call it that).

[Jaffa]

As far as I'm concerned, the band's word is enough.  If they say SFAM is multiple songs while SDOIT is one song divided into multiple tracks, that's good enough to me.  It's all just semantics anyway.

[jayvee3]

I think it actually transitions quite nicely to the ambient section. I don't agree that there is minimal/no preparation for the following change. JP has a short run-- sounds like an alternate picked one-- leading up into a big power chord that sustains until the chimes come in. If you didn't know what came next, that run into the single chord played by JP and JR (plus a gong hit) still tells you that some part or section has ended, and in fact, it's the end of part II. When the chord loses all of its natural sustain, it dissolves into the ambient section instead of dead silence. I think the transition was done extremely well, and that it's a great moment to shift gears in the song. I disagree it's as ungraceful, abrupt, unintentional and jarring as someone falling flat on his face in the middle of sprinting.

This, absolutely. I feel the transition into the ambient section flows perfectly, and it is essentially one section ending and fading out, while the next fades in. Flows just fine to me. I think the only section that may raise an eyebrow, is the transition from the orchestra, where the jet sound comes in and the bass starts. However, I don't feel this was a poor transition - I think it is completely designed that way and intentional, to kick you in the teeth. And personally - I absolutely love it, and think it works beautifully. So, other than the intended change up, I think every other transition in the song is pretty seamless..

Overall, this is fast becoming my favorite epic. It has a much more concise start, and gets right into it with some awesome riffage, (and the brilliant Live, Die, Kill,) which is my main issue (and always has been) with Octavarium; it has a great orchestral and ambient section, which was an area I enjoyed in the middle of TCOT, but IT's is much better, and far more moving. It also has much more variety and better lyrics and vocals than ITPOE, and to me, just flat out sounds better overall than ACOS, which I enjoy some parts immensly, but others I kind of lose interest in. To me, and Amazing epic on an amazing overall album 

[Outcrier]

If SDOIT DISC 2 was released as just one disc (and maybe be a bit longer), it would be a concept album too.

No, it would be an album that consists entirely of one song.

Nah. Especially if it was more songs (Eleven Degrees  )

[Outcrier]

But imagine if Disc 1 of 6DOIT and Scenes had been written at the same time and released as a double album.  Scenes from a Memory would have been called one song (had they still decided to call it that).

Yeah, maybe, but they insist in not seeing it.

[aprilethereal]

If SDOIT DISC 2 was released as just one disc (and maybe be a bit longer), it would be a concept album too.

No, it would be an album that consists entirely of one song.

Nah. Especially if it was more songs (Eleven Degrees  )

The DT guys intended it to be a song. It may be incohesive, but it's still one song.

[hefdaddy42]

Octavarium is -to me- the biggest offender in the Dream Theater catalog as far as sudden/patchy/jarring changes go.  I've always felt that it sounded like 3 or 4 different tracks just kind of bolted together.

Octavarium is probably the most cohesive. Each part transitions to the next without any abrupt or crazy time and tempo changes. It flows very nicely, and I fail to see how it doesn't. Maybe Someone Like Him --> Medicate is a bit awkward? A little? I think? Not really.

This is why we can't have nice things.

[Outcrier]

The DT guys intended it to be a song. It may be incohesive, but it's still one song.

We're talking about a alternative universe here, just considering things that could have happened 

[aprilethereal]

The DT guys intended it to be a song. It may be incohesive, but it's still one song.

We're talking about a alternative universe here, just considering things that could have happened 

It would still be one song if disc two was released on its own.

[Outcrier]

Maybe.
Maybe Scenes could be a one song too. Easy to say it couldn't have been because it isn't (mindfuck).

[Jaq]

I don't think too much about it or analyze music like this, I just enjoy it.

What the hell are you doing here then? 

I agree though, over-analyzing anything you like just seems like it would suck the joy out of things. I like it or I don't. As for the subject at hand, DT is far better about writing lengthy songs than a lot of people give them credit for. You want my idea of an epic that is just incoherent and put together awfully? Manowar did a 28 minute long song about Achilles. One section is a drum solo. Another section is a bass solo. No melodies recur throughout the song.

You give that bad boy a listen, and trust me, you'll never think DT writes badly structured epics.

[aprilethereal]

Maybe.
Maybe Scenes could be a one song too. Easy to say it couldn't have been because it isn't (mindfuck).

Well it isn't.

Concept album =/= song

[Outcrier]

Jesus christ, i know it isn't!
Imagine if Scenes was shorter and Six Degrees was longer.

[Outcrier]

It is the way it is because the band called it like that.

[ariich]

It is the way it is because the band called it like that.

No it's not. They WROTE Six Degrees as a single song. MP has explicitly explained that. Originally they thought it would be a ACOS-style song around 20 minutes, but they got carried away, and eventually decided to split it up because it was just so damn long.

SFAM they WROTE as an album. They wrote the songs separately.

It's not about what the band calls them now, it's about how they were written, and how they were intended.

[Dark Castle]

It is the way it is because the band called it like that.

No it's not. They WROTE Six Degrees as a single song. MP has explicitly explained that. Originally they thought it would be a ACOS-style song around 20 minutes, but they got carried away, and eventually decided to split it up because it was just so damn long.

SFAM they WROTE as an album. They wrote the songs separately.

It's not about what the band calls them now, it's about how they were written, and how they were intended.

Be that as it may, I have an extremely hard time calling 6Degrees one song, as each "Part" sounds like a completely separate song, with a few reoccurring overall themes sprinkled through.

[The Stray Seed]

Guys... we're talking about Suites. DT Epics are always Suites. It's in the definition itself of a suite to have several movements, each one different from one other, each one with its own features and pace. Also, do you really want to focus on transitions from one movement to another being too abrupt? Well look, have you ever heard the Nutcracker Suite (speaking of Čajkovskij...)? I think you definitely did. Then, how does the Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy transition into the Russian Dance? Try and give it a spin, and you'll find out what I mean.

A Suite is conceived to be looked at as a bigger picture (pun not sure if not intended), and appreciated as such: an eclectic composition of several musical stanzas each one focused on a different theme/mood/emotion.
Moreover, the Suite was originally meant to accompany a set of dances. The classical suite structure is as follows: Allemande - Courante - Sarabande - Gigue. Even just focusing on this, I will highlight the fact that a Sarabande is a slow and majestic spanish dance in 3/4, while Gigue is a lively, fast pace dance with a meter of 6/8 (the Irish will know what I'm talking about).

So this great fuss, to me, really is much ado about nothing.