Do you think DT's epics are incohesive?

[King Postwhore]

I always look at the second disk as a novel.  Different chapters in a story.  You can also look as SFAM like that as well.

[theseoafs]

It is the way it is because the band called it like that.

No it's not. They WROTE Six Degrees as a single song. MP has explicitly explained that. Originally they thought it would be a ACOS-style song around 20 minutes, but they got carried away, and eventually decided to split it up because it was just so damn long.

SFAM they WROTE as an album. They wrote the songs separately.

It's not about what the band calls them now, it's about how they were written, and how they were intended.

Be that as it may, I have an extremely hard time calling 6Degrees one song, as each "Part" sounds like a completely separate song, with a few reoccurring overall themes sprinkled through.

That's just what DT's epics sound like.

[Dark Castle]

It is the way it is because the band called it like that.

No it's not. They WROTE Six Degrees as a single song. MP has explicitly explained that. Originally they thought it would be a ACOS-style song around 20 minutes, but they got carried away, and eventually decided to split it up because it was just so damn long.

SFAM they WROTE as an album. They wrote the songs separately.

It's not about what the band calls them now, it's about how they were written, and how they were intended.

Be that as it may, I have an extremely hard time calling 6Degrees one song, as each "Part" sounds like a completely separate song, with a few reoccurring overall themes sprinkled through.

That's just what DT's epics sound like.

Eh, Illumination Theory sounds like the same song all the way through for me.

[Podaar]

I think we are just getting into semantics now. SDOIT is a single composition as defined by the creators. Who are we to argue with their intent and method? If single movements of the composition sound like individual "songs" to us that is our own bias.

For me personally there is no difference between the contrasting movements of SDOIT than with the contrasting movements of say, Peer Gynt Suite. Grieg intended it to be a single composition that accompanies the play which is telling a story of Peer's adventures. The movements Morning Mood and The Hall of The Mountain King have nothing in common sound wise yet Peer's story is incomplete without each one.  Similarly, SDOIT as a composition is incomplete without its separate movements.

If that lacks cohesion to us we should be prepared to admit the problem is with us. No one is forcing us to like what we hear but that doesn't change facts.

[Buddyhunter1]

Similarly, SDOIT as a composition is incomplete without its separate movements.

Then how come the band plays segments of the song live (like War Inside My Head > TTTSTA) by themselves and it sounds completely fine?
If you ask me, when certain movements of a song can stand alone outside of the bigger piece, it's not one song.

[425]

Then the demo version of Burning My Soul is not one song? Then The Mirror is not one song?

For that matter, have you checked the tracklist of Once In a Livetime? By your standard, A Change of Seasons is not one song.

[The Letter M]

Similarly, SDOIT as a composition is incomplete without its separate movements.

Then how come the band plays segments of the song live (like War Inside My Head > TTTSTA) by themselves and it sounds completely fine?
If you ask me, when certain movements of a song can stand alone outside of the bigger piece, it's not one song.

If that is the case, how do you feel when parts of 8VM and ACOS have been played apart from the whole? Yes in those instances they were part of medlies, but it doesn't change the fact that the band can extract those movements from the complete piece and play them like they have done with parts of SDOIT.

-Marc.

[Podaar]

The same way that an opus is commonly played by orchestras. Selected movements provide the audience with a sample of the composition without taking up the entire evening. That doesn't change the fact that the original composition is much longer. In the example of Peer Gynt, Suite No. 1, Op. 46 is a popular production because it includes the two movements I mentioned in my earlier post.

Seriously, Symphony No. 5 by Beethoven may be the best known single piece of music ever written yet very few people have ever heard it all the way through. I've been to performances where people left after the first movement because they thought it was over. Many who do, don't care for the rest of the Symphony but again that alter's Beethoven's intent not one iota.

[Buddyhunter1]

Similarly, SDOIT as a composition is incomplete without its separate movements.

Then how come the band plays segments of the song live (like War Inside My Head > TTTSTA) by themselves and it sounds completely fine?
If you ask me, when certain movements of a song can stand alone outside of the bigger piece, it's not one song.

If that is the case, how do you feel when parts of 8VM and ACOS have been played apart from the whole? Yes in those instances they were part of medlies, but it doesn't change the fact that the band can extract those movements from the complete piece and play them like they have done with parts of SDOIT.

-Marc.

Except in those cases, they don't work, at least not to me. When they just play a couple movements from 6DOIT, it just sounds like they played another song.

[King Postwhore]

That's just silly.  You'll never get to hear those songs then.  They are fine when split though I'd love to hear 2 long songs live.

[The Letter M]

Similarly, SDOIT as a composition is incomplete without its separate movements.

Then how come the band plays segments of the song live (like War Inside My Head > TTTSTA) by themselves and it sounds completely fine?
If you ask me, when certain movements of a song can stand alone outside of the bigger piece, it's not one song.

I guess it's just me then...I always keep wanting to hear "Goodnight Kiss" after TTTSTA ends, and other similar sections as well. I'm just too used to hearing all of SDOIT in one go, just like Neal Morse's ? Album. He's done parts and medlies of it but it's just different and unusualbto someone like me who is accustomed to the original, full-length piece.

-Marc.

If that is the case, how do you feel when parts of 8VM and ACOS have been played apart from the whole? Yes in those instances they were part of medlies, but it doesn't change the fact that the band can extract those movements from the complete piece and play them like they have done with parts of SDOIT.

-Marc.

Except in those cases, they don't work, at least not to me. When they just play a couple movements from 6DOIT, it just sounds like they played another song.

[Jaffa]

Except in those cases, they don't work, at least not to me. When they just play a couple movements from 6DOIT, it just sounds like they played another song.

The point, though, is that they have split up ACOS for live performances.  Whether it worked for you or not, they've done it.  If you're going to say that SDOIT isn't one song because it's been split up for live performances, you have to accept the same logic for ACOS. 

[Outcrier]

It is the way it is because the band called it like that.

No it's not. They WROTE Six Degrees as a single song. MP has explicitly explained that. Originally they thought it would be a ACOS-style song around 20 minutes, but they got carried away, and eventually decided to split it up because it was just so damn long.

SFAM they WROTE as an album. They wrote the songs separately.

It's not about what the band calls them now, it's about how they were written, and how they were intended.

So,if it they intended the other way around (SFAM song, SDOIT album), would change anything?Majority would accept it and others would say SFAM don't feel like a song, don't?

[425]

If they intended the other way around, they would be entirely different compositions, is the point. So you can't even present that as a hypothetical.

[ariich]

For sure, how it feels to you is entirely subjective. But as has been pointed out in this thread, many people feel that way about most of DT's epics.

The fact is that SDOIT is a song, and SFAM is an album. Whether you think they work in those terms or not is a different matter, and if you'd prefer not to think of them that way, that's cool. But they are that way, in how they were intended and how they were written.

[Outcrier]

The fact is that SDOIT is a song, and SFAM is an album.

O Rly, never heard that one 

[hefdaddy42]

It is the way it is because the band called it like that.

No it's not. They WROTE Six Degrees as a single song. MP has explicitly explained that. Originally they thought it would be a ACOS-style song around 20 minutes, but they got carried away, and eventually decided to split it up because it was just so damn long.

SFAM they WROTE as an album. They wrote the songs separately.

It's not about what the band calls them now, it's about how they were written, and how they were intended.

Be that as it may, I have an extremely hard time calling 6Degrees one song, as each "Part" sounds like a completely separate song, with a few reoccurring overall themes sprinkled through.

Well, that's you, not the song.

[Outcrier]

For sure, how it feels to you is entirely subjective. But as has been pointed out in this thread, many people feel that way about most of DT's epics.

The fact is that SDOIT is a song, and SFAM is an album. Whether you think they work in those terms or not is a different matter, and if you'd prefer not to think of them that way, that's cool. But they are that way, in how they were intended and how they were written.

You didn't understand... My point is that if they intended the other way, same thing would have happened (people discussing about if it is incohesive and other things).

[ariich]

For sure, how it feels to you is entirely subjective. But as has been pointed out in this thread, many people feel that way about most of DT's epics.

The fact is that SDOIT is a song, and SFAM is an album. Whether you think they work in those terms or not is a different matter, and if you'd prefer not to think of them that way, that's cool. But they are that way, in how they were intended and how they were written.

You didn't understand... My point is that if they intended the other way, same thing would have happened (people discussing about if it is incohesive and other things).

Ah ok, yeah I'm sure that would indeed be the case. That's pretty hypothetical though.

[hefdaddy42]

It's completely hypothetical, so I'm not sure if it's even worth talking about.

[Outcrier]

That's ok.