What are your thoughts on DT12?

[Perpetual Change]

Had DT12 in the car today, after having not really listened to it at all since September.

I've warmed up quite a bit on the actual content, but the production still kills me. The clipping is noticeable right away, but midway through, you start to notice all the other issues - the drums and ESPECIALLY the cymbals. The cymbals in particular sound like I'm playing my music on the car stereo via bluetooth, even though the CD is actually in. Ugh.

I've listened to a lot of music this year, probably over 50 albums. With better production, DT12 might have cracked the top 20. But, as is, I just can't really listen to it.

"Know the joy in liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiife" ~ IT 17:28

Listen to that long note. There is so much fake vibrato, it sounds like some synthesizer instead of a human voice. It's almost unlistenable for me; same goes for most of Chaos in Motion. I'm not entirely sure what the vocal effect is but it's most noticable on the Bb, A, and G (when JLB resolves to the F, the real vibrato comes in).

It's such a shame because I really enjoy the song, but that keeps it from being as could as it could be. That's what really frustrates me.

Same here. I brought this up earlier on, but not many people commented. But yeah, at the end, James is so doused in effects, his voice barely sounds human to me. 

[rumborak]

I had the same problem today. I was jogging today to instrumentals, and when I checked out the IT thing about the vocals, I had to yank the headphones out of my ear. It was insanely loud.

[TheGreatPretender]

I've warmed up quite a bit on the actual content, but the production still kills me. The clipping is noticeable right away, but midway through, you start to notice all the other issues - the drums and ESPECIALLY the cymbals. The cymbals in particular sound like I'm playing my music on the car stereo via bluetooth, even though the CD is actually in. Ugh.

If it bothers you that much, you should get the HD Tracks version of the album.

[Perpetual Change]

I've considered it, but the HD tracks release still rubs me the wrong way. I shouldn't have to buy the same album twice for it just to sound good.

[KevShmev]

The HD Tracks version is better, but not noticeably better, and still not HQ-sounding.  Granted, the sound of it doesn't bother me like it does others, but if you don't like the sound of the normal album, the HD version won't change your mind.

[TheGreatPretender]

The HD Tracks version is better, but not noticeably better, and still not HQ-sounding.  Granted, the sound of it doesn't bother me like it does others, but if you don't like the sound of the normal album, the HD version won't change your mind.

If it's clipping specifically that bothers them, then HD should definitely make a difference.

[KevShmev]

See, the clipping isn't glaring enough to me to be bothersome.  I get bothered by the compression, which I don't really notice when I am listening to the whole thing, but if I am listening to music on shuffle, it can really stand out.  I was at the gym last week, and The Looking Glass came on right after a song from the 80s, and it was like someone had just put something in between my ears and my iPod headphones; the compression really stood out when listening to a song from the album right after a song that doesn't have any or hardly any compression.  It's sad when songs from decades ago are sounding better than songs from 2013.

[1neeto]

Had DT12 in the car today, after having not really listened to it at all since September.

I've warmed up quite a bit on the actual content, but the production still kills me. The clipping is noticeable right away, but midway through, you start to notice all the other issues - the drums and ESPECIALLY the cymbals. The cymbals in particular sound like I'm playing my music on the car stereo via bluetooth, even though the CD is actually in. Ugh.

I've listened to a lot of music this year, probably over 50 albums. With better production, DT12 might have cracked the top 20. But, as is, I just can't really listen to it.

"Know the joy in liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiife" ~ IT 17:28

Listen to that long note. There is so much fake vibrato, it sounds like some synthesizer instead of a human voice. It's almost unlistenable for me; same goes for most of Chaos in Motion. I'm not entirely sure what the vocal effect is but it's most noticable on the Bb, A, and G (when JLB resolves to the F, the real vibrato comes in).

It's such a shame because I really enjoy the song, but that keeps it from being as could as it could be. That's what really frustrates me.

Same here. I brought this up earlier on, but not many people commented. But yeah, at the end, James is so doused in effects, his voice barely sounds human to me. 

I think that's one of the best parts of the song, if not the whole album. I hear some echo and delay but that's no different to other vocal productions. At least he's not autotuned like in Beneath The Surface.

[Perpetual Change]

It's sad when songs from decades ago are sounding better than songs from 2013.

Yup.  Especially when the songs are by the same band 

[TheGreatPretender]

See, the clipping isn't glaring enough to me to be bothersome.  I get bothered by the compression, which I don't really notice when I am listening to the whole thing, but if I am listening to music on shuffle, it can really stand out.  I was at the gym last week, and The Looking Glass came on right after a song from the 80s, and it was like someone had just put something in between my ears and my iPod headphones; the compression really stood out when listening to a song from the album right after a song that doesn't have any or hardly any compression.  It's sad when songs from decades ago are sounding better than songs from 2013.

Well, the HD tracks take care of the compression issue too, right?

[KevShmev]

No.

[TheGreatPretender]

No.

How's that, now? They're not all birckwalled and sound plenty dynamic to me.

[BlobVanDam]

See, the clipping isn't glaring enough to me to be bothersome.  I get bothered by the compression, which I don't really notice when I am listening to the whole thing, but if I am listening to music on shuffle, it can really stand out.  I was at the gym last week, and The Looking Glass came on right after a song from the 80s, and it was like someone had just put something in between my ears and my iPod headphones; the compression really stood out when listening to a song from the album right after a song that doesn't have any or hardly any compression.  It's sad when songs from decades ago are sounding better than songs from 2013.

Well, the HD tracks take care of the compression issue too, right?

Yes. It doesn't have the dynamic range compression that was applied in the mastering stage (although still has the compression applied per instrument, which is plenty enough). I could barely listen to the album until I got the HDTracks version, and now it's much more enjoyable to listen to sonically. Huge difference if you've got the equipment.

[Implode]

No.

Isn't that the point of HDTracks? It's the tracks at near lossless quality, i.e. before they were compressed. Or am I wrong?

[KevShmev]

They sound better, but there is still noticeable compression there.  I can look past it most of the time, but like I said before, it really stands out when I am listening to other stuff in the midst of it.

[Implode]

So is that compression a result from the mixing then? It'd have to be either that or the recording because I thought DT just uses the unmastered versions for HDTracks.

[KevShmev]

Your guess is as good as mine.  All I know is I chucked the original album mp3s from my iTunes and am going with only the HD tracks now, and I can still hear some compression at times. 

[BlobVanDam]

So is that compression a result from the mixing then? It'd have to be either that or the recording because I thought DT just uses the unmastered versions for HDTracks.

It still has compression on individual tracks, which is a standard part of the mixing process so that the volume of each instrument is level, but it doesn't appear to have the final mastering stage where they add compression to the overall track to boost it further.
I don't know why further compression was added, as the HDTracks version sounds perfectly complete, and is still plenty compressed to give it kick.

[nikatapi]

Even the HDtracks can't hide the obvious production problems, there is still much compression on the tracks of each instrument, the cymbals sound weak and don't have bite and clarity, they sound dull and don't cut through the guitars. Also, as many of you said, James' vocals sometimes get drowned by all the effects that are applied.

It's a shame really, given the money that DT give for making those albums, and MM plays some great stuff which goes unnoticed behind the wall of sound of the guitars. If we had MP's level of quality on the drum production, i'm sure many more people would be amazed by the drumming. Just try listening to a song from let's say SDOIT or even BC&SL, and then DT12. Massive difference in the drum sound.

Also, James sounded great on his solo album, even with some effects at times, but on DT12 he sounds artificial on some tracks.

[aprilethereal]

I agree, the drums sound pretty weak, but I'm still amazed by MM's performance.

[dedSurroun]

A few months later, and I have to say:

• The songs and music is still as excellent to me. Best album since SFAM (yeah, take that 6DOIT fanboys). I truly didn't think they could make music like this anymore.
• The production (as duly noted in detail above by others) is still pretty crappy. I have the HDTracks and only listen to them. It's a shame, really. The music is phenomenal but the production flaws are detrimental to my overall enjoyment.

No excessive listening to it, maybe a couple of times per week (too busy with life! And other music  )

It's aging really, really well (musically speaking).

[TL]

Musically, I already liked it when I first heard it, and I find myself liking it more and more the more I listen to it.

Production wise, I've gotten to a point where I'm not really bothered by it if I'm listening to the HDTracks version, but I still really wish the production was better.

[jcmistat]

It has gotten a little better with more listens but my biggest gripe is that is that the album flies by way too fast and leaves me wanting more. I doubt I'll ever like it more than A Dramatic Turn of Events. Its till a Meh working its way up to Decent.

[fadetoblackdude7]

It has gotten a little better with more listens but my biggest gripe is that is that the album flies by way too fast and leaves me wanting more. I doubt I'll ever like it more than A Dramatic Turn of Events. Its till a Meh working its way up to Decent.

Considering that DT12 is only 9 minutes shorter than ADTOE, I call that a big compliment.

[KevShmev]

Agreed.  It doesn't feel like work to get through the whole thing in one sitting, which is definitely a good thing.

[MonagFam]

...which goes unnoticed behind the wall of sound of the guitars.

This has been my biggest gripe and I think I've posted about it in another thread or two.  I like it when bands let all the instruments breathe a little.  It seems like we have guitar on top of guitar, and just lose anything that isn't JR (or JLB if singing).  There are times I just figure, JM is probably playing the same thing JP is, but I just can't pick it out with my hearing very well.

[Cable]

...which goes unnoticed behind the wall of sound of the guitars.

This has been my biggest gripe and I think I've posted about it in another thread or two.  I like it when bands let all the instruments breathe a little.  It seems like we have guitar on top of guitar, and just lose anything that isn't JR (or JLB if singing).  There are times I just figure, JM is probably playing the same thing JP is, but I just can't pick it out with my hearing very well.

Great point, and something that's clear but not obvious at times. I think since the mostly remix of SFAM, JP has become increasingly, or at least super up front and overpowering on each release.

Now, I prefer the Shirley remixes of SFAM. But listening to Bottrill mixes, the instruments did breathe a little more. Maybe with the exception of FII (Shirley consequently), this was the case on everything prior to the SFAM Shirley mixes. Since that point, which is also when JP was at least a co-producer, the guitar is much more present for better or for worse.

[Outcrier]

Best album since SFAM (yeah, take that 6DOIT fanboys).

Six Degrees alone obliterates the entire DT12 

[MonagFam]

Great point, and something that's clear but not obvious at times. I think since the mostly remix of SFAM, JP has become increasingly, or at least super up front and overpowering on each release.

Now, I prefer the Shirley remixes of SFAM. But listening to Bottrill mixes, the instruments did breathe a little more. Maybe with the exception of FII (Shirley consequently), this was the case on everything prior to the SFAM Shirley mixes. Since that point, which is also when JP was at least a co-producer, the guitar is much more present for better or for worse.

I know that I initially avoided FII as if it was the plague (likely because I started late and the person sharing the DT info/music wasn't overly fond), but I really have started to like it and the production value in terms of giving each instrument some space is really stark. 

JP obviously likes that sound, but I would love to hear it scaled back to one guitar.  When JP is soloing -- I don't see why it can't just be JM playing the supporting rhythm on bass alone.  To be fair JP isn't the only one that does it, but I feel it to just take away from my enjoyment a little.

[Cable]

That is one of the great points of DT12; during many of JP solos, they drop the guitar rhythm track or don't have one. TLG and STR come to mind. I can only think of one song (AIA) that did that prior to this album.

[rumborak]

JP obviously likes that sound, but I would love to hear it scaled back to one guitar.  When JP is soloing -- I don't see why it can't just be JM playing the supporting rhythm on bass alone.  To be fair JP isn't the only one that does it, but I feel it to just take away from my enjoyment a little.

I understand putting a rhythm guitar under your solo if you're a power trio. But Jordan is fully capable of covering the sonic space left empty by the soloing guitar, so I totally agree, it's unnecessary.

[JiM-Xtreme]

I understand putting a rhythm guitar under your solo if you're a power trio. But Jordan is fully capable of covering the sonic space left empty by the soloing guitar, so I totally agree, it's unnecessary.

This.

[Lucidity]

After many many listens of the album, I still can barely enjoy or appreciate MM's drumming just because of how terrible it sounds to me. If you sat down at a drum set and began to play, and the drums made the sounds that you hear on the album, you'd think something was terribly wrong with it. It just sounds so fake, like he's playing an electronic drum set. The snare is wonky and unfocused, the bass drum sounds like a low tom, and the cymbals just sound awful. It's such a shame because his drumming is fantastic, and he does a lot of cool things. It just still amazes me that everyone in the band was okay with this drum sound.

[Polis]

If the production was SFAM quality, I would like this album. Could someone enlighten me as to why they keep doing the multiple James voice thing?

[MonagFam]

After many many listens of the album, I still can barely enjoy or appreciate MM's drumming just because of how terrible it sounds to me. If you sat down at a drum set and began to play, and the drums made the sounds that you hear on the album, you'd think something was terribly wrong with it. It just sounds so fake, like he's playing an electronic drum set. The snare is wonky and unfocused, the bass drum sounds like a low tom, and the cymbals just sound awful. It's such a shame because his drumming is fantastic, and he does a lot of cool things. It just still amazes me that everyone in the band was okay with this drum sound.

This isn't something I really thought about, but I do feel like the drums are certainly not pushed out there.  I know MP could be a little too pushy with the drum sound, but I remember giving ADTOE a bit of a pass on the drum department.  I knew he was flying, but I also knew he didn't have a lot of input and it may have been somewhat subdued on the album itself.  I know MM had a lot of input in DT12, and you can tell he's flying, but I'd be hard pressed to tell you one drum track.  I know he's awesome, but it's not like anything grabs me.  Whereas something like 6:00, that sort of opening sticks with you.  (I say this as someone who puts MM over MP.)