DT Music Theory Thread

[JonnyM93]

So I've always wanted to know the technical aspects of Dream Theater's music. For example: Song keys, modes, time signatures, song structures, etc. I want to compare songs and see what the differences are and why some songs usually get more playback. Also I'd like to learn about it to expand my horizons for my band. So who has any ideas how to start? Should we make a list?

[TheGreatPretender]

Has Dream Theater ever used Hemidemisemiquavers in their music?

[JonnyM93]

Doubt it, but whoever finds one first will get a cookie!

[Implode]

One time I did a song form analysis of all the opening tracks of the albums. The only I can remember is that DT likes doing this thing where after the first verse they only play either the prechorus or half of the chorus, the don't come in with the full chorus until after the second verse.

[Mosh]

So I've always wanted to know the technical aspects of Dream Theater's music. For example: Song keys, modes, time signatures, song structures, etc. I want to compare songs and see what the differences are and why some songs usually get more playback. Also I'd like to learn about it to expand my horizons for my band. So who has any ideas how to start? Should we make a list?

Well from a music theory stand point, Octavarium is pretty interesting. Lots of subtleties throughout the album, you see 5/8 pretty often. I'm not sure what you're looking for exactly though.

[TheGreatPretender]

One time I did a song form analysis of all the opening tracks of the albums. The only I can remember is that DT likes doing this thing where after the first verse they only play either the prechorus or half of the chorus, the don't come in with the full chorus until after the second verse.

Yeah, I noticed this too. I'm fairly sure it's present in not just opening tracks, though.

[Mosh]

Bridges in the Sky does it; that's the first one that comes to mind. I think Scarred does it too, but I'm having trouble remembering.

[Implode]

Yeah, I noticed this too. I'm fairly sure it's present in not just opening tracks, though.

Yes, they do that a lot.

Bridges in the Sky does it; that's the first one that comes to mind. I think Scarred does it too, but I'm having trouble remembering.

And Pull Me Under, 6:00, Blind Faith, The Root of All Evil, and On the Backs of Angels do it for sure.

[Mosh]

Oh yes, 6:00 is interesting cause it adds a new part every time. I also love how Blind Faith builds each time.

War Inside My Head and Misunderstood do it, just thought of that.

[TheGreatPretender]

Bridges in the Sky does it; that's the first one that comes to mind. I think Scarred does it too, but I'm having trouble remembering.

The sheet music on Jammit basically broke down Scarred as having 3 different chorus structures. And when they first come up, one comes after the other, so we end up with something like Chorus 1, Chorus 2, Chorus 3, then after that, only one or two of them repeat, I'll double check later.


Also, apart from shorter songs like Wait For Sleep, Vacant, etc, Metropolis and The Killing Hand are the only DT songs I could think of where lyrical structures don't repeat. Where we essentially have no repeating choruses, or even repeating verse structures. I wouldn't be surprised if there's one or two other songs that aren't coming to me, but those are the only two I could think of right now.

[Elite]

Has Dream Theater ever used Hemidemisemiquavers in their music?

Yes! This is all I can think of off the top of my head, but I think there are more!

Both guitar solos in Lie feature short flurries of hemidemisemiquavers. The last solo even contains 4 hundred twenty-eighth notes!

[Sycsa]

To start, here are a couple of examples of DT time signatures which I find memorable:

These Walls - that 6/8 grooves so well throughout the song, it's like the 5/4 is for Take Five.
The Dance of Eternity - Definitely check out Portnoy's video about the crazy time signature changes this song has. It's hilarious how he chuckles at the last 7/8 and that very same 7/8 screws Aquiles Priester in the drummer auditions video. A nice little "nugget" of DT history.

Structurally speaking, many songs on ADTOE resemble I&W songs, more noticeably: On the Backs of Angels / Pull Me Under and Lost Not Forgotten / Under a Glass Moon (John even using the flutter technique in both solos).

[TheGreatPretender]

Has Dream Theater ever used Hemidemisemiquavers in their music?

Yes! This is all I can think of off the top of my head, but I think there are more!

Both guitar solos in Lie feature short flurries of hemidemisemiquavers. The last solo even contains 4 hundred twenty-eighth notes!

That's awesome! So like, quasihemidemisemiquavers?


I find it interesting when they change up their time signatures between choruses. Like in Fatal Tragedy, when James sings, "Without love (beat) without truth. (There can be no turning back.)" But when he sings "Without faith, without hope," that beat is gone, making that part a beat shorter.

Same with the verses on Beautiful Agony. The first verse has one more beat than the second verse, while the lyric structure remains the same, resulting in having to go from one line to the next more immediately in the second verse.

Sorry, I'm not really good at figuring out the actual time signatures, so I can't pinpoint what they are. I just know relatively speaking.

[Mosh]

Oh yea that's cool too. The first verse of Full Circle is in 7/8 and the second is in 5/8. Such a seamless transition, it's hardly noticeable. Panic Attack also does a similar thing, where the first verse is in 5/8 and the second is in 6/8.

The thing in Fatal Tragedy goes 4/4 the first time and then 3/4 the second time. Beautiful Agony goes from 4/4 to 7/4, but you're pretty much right about it being one beat less, since it's going 4+3 as opposed to 4+4.

[JonnyM93]

So what is Dream Theater's favorite key? That's one of the things I'd like to know first of all. In reality I'd like a list of all the keys of every song, but idk how hard that would be.

[Blazinarps]

Oh yea that's cool too. The first verse of Full Circle is in 7/8 and the second is in 5/8. Such a seamless transition, it's hardly noticeable. Panic Attack also does a similar thing, where the first verse is in 5/8 and the second is in 6/8.

The thing in Fatal Tragedy goes 4/4 the first time and then 3/4 the second time. Beautiful Agony goes from 4/4 to 7/4, but you're pretty much right about it being one beat less, since it's going 4+3 as opposed to 4+4.

Actually, to take it one step further, it's like this...

First chorus, first time through is 4/4 second time is 3/4.

Second chorus, first time through is 4/4, second time is 6/8.

Listen to it again... Pretty sweet.

[BlobVanDam]

So what is Dream Theater's favorite key? That's one of the things I'd like to know first of all. In reality I'd like a list of all the keys of every song, but idk how hard that would be.

The time consuming part is that songs often don't stick to one key, so for each song you'd have to break it down further and list every key within the song, which is a lot of work!


Off the top of my head without actually checking or knowing how to play the songs, here's a rough outline for Images and Words. This is mostly the starting/dominant key though, not a complete breakdown by any stretch.

Pull Me Under - E (chorus in A?)
Another Day - mostly Ab
Take The Time - early sections are in C#, later sections are probably in different keys, outro is E
Surrounded - G?
Metropolis - starts in E, unison is in F#?, outro section in C?
Under a Glass Moon - starts in F#?
Wait For Sleep - E
Learning To Live - starts in F#, goes to E for verse/chorus, too many sections for me to think through the rest.

A lot of guitar-based music centers around the tuning of the guitar, but Dream Theater don't stick as much to that as a lot of other bands, and JP uses a lot of different guitars and tunings to match. If I had to guess the most common key, I'd go with either E or B for standard tuning 6 string and 7 string guitar, but I'm not sure what percentage that would be.

[TheGreatPretender]

Oh yea that's cool too. The first verse of Full Circle is in 7/8 and the second is in 5/8. Such a seamless transition, it's hardly noticeable. Panic Attack also does a similar thing, where the first verse is in 5/8 and the second is in 6/8.

The thing in Fatal Tragedy goes 4/4 the first time and then 3/4 the second time. Beautiful Agony goes from 4/4 to 7/4, but you're pretty much right about it being one beat less, since it's going 4+3 as opposed to 4+4.

The structures of the verses are a bit different, though in Full Circle. The first one flows in sets of four syllables, the second one flows in sets of two syllables. Which is actually really cool, now that I think about it.

And with Panic Attack, the first verse flows in three sets of three syllables, and the second verse flows in a steady rhythm of 9 syllables. Very different structure, but the fact that they do change the structure from verse to verse only gives the song that much more variety. 

Actually, to take it one step further, it's like this...

First chorus, first time through is 4/4 second time is 3/4.

Second chorus, first time through is 4/4, second time is 6/8.

Listen to it again... Pretty sweet.

Are you talking about Fatal Tragedy?

[Mosh]

So what is Dream Theater's favorite key? That's one of the things I'd like to know first of all. In reality I'd like a list of all the keys of every song, but idk how hard that would be.

It's your lucky day, I have insomnia and I'm bored so I'll try and make a list. Start with the easy one, since the keys are listed in the booklet:

Octavarium
Root Of All Evil - Fm
The Answer Lies Within - Gm
These Walls - Am
I Walk Beside You - Bm
Panic Attack - Cm
Never Enough - Dm
Sacrificed Sons - Em
Octavarium - Mostly Fm (Medicate is in A major and the synth solo before Full Circle is in E major)

Black Clouds and Silver Linings
A Nightmare To Remember - Changes between A and C minor.
A Rite Of Passage - Mostly in D major. Chorus in E major, guitar solo changes keys a bunch of times. Though it seems like it's mostly just modulations of D, Petrucci's solo is very modal, the whole thing is probably in D but the sheet music just puts key changes to simplify it.
Wither - Bflat Minor
The Shattered Fortress - This one is interesting, because it starts in C# Minor, I'm not sure what made them write the intro a major 2nd higher than the rest of the majority of the suite. Anyway, once the verse kicks in it goes to B minor and stays that way until the Root Of All Evil reprises, which are in F.
The Best Of Times - Piano intro is in B minor, violin and guitar solos are in A minor, once The Spirit Of Radio the distorted guitar riff comes in it switches to E Major. Orchestral interlude after "and then came the call" is in B minor, as are the following verses. "the fleeting winds of time" part is in A minor. That repeats for the next verse and chorus, guitar solo in A minor.
The Count Of Tuscany - Starts in B major, goes through a bunch of key changes before landing in E minor for the first verse. "Let me introduce" is in G minor, the chorus is in C minor. After the ambient section, the key goes back to B Major.

A Dramatic Turn Of Events
On The Backs Of Angels - E major
Build Me Up... - C# Minor
Lost Not Forgotten - D Minor, with some modulations
This Is The Life - E Major
Bridges in the Sky - B minor mostly. Chorus is in E minor, instrumental section is in D minor. though it changes up a lot. Guitar solo goes from A minor to D minor. Keyboard solo goes from F Minor to D minor.
Outcry - B minor, switches to E minor in a few spots. Instrumental section modulates a ton, but revolves around B and E.
Far From Heaven - A Minor
Breaking All Illusions - Starts in A minor. First verse in G minor. Chorus in A. Instrumental section starts in E minor. Guitar solo in D Minor. Modulates a bunch until back to A minor, outro in G minor.
Beneath The Surface - E Major

Say what you will about BC&SL, but it's pretty adventurous as far as keys go. I'll do other albums later.

Oh yea that's cool too. The first verse of Full Circle is in 7/8 and the second is in 5/8. Such a seamless transition, it's hardly noticeable. Panic Attack also does a similar thing, where the first verse is in 5/8 and the second is in 6/8.

The thing in Fatal Tragedy goes 4/4 the first time and then 3/4 the second time. Beautiful Agony goes from 4/4 to 7/4, but you're pretty much right about it being one beat less, since it's going 4+3 as opposed to 4+4.

The structures of the verses are a bit different, though in Full Circle. The first one flows in sets of four syllables, the second one flows in sets of two syllables. Which is actually really cool, now that I think about it.

And with Panic Attack, the first verse flows in three sets of three syllables, and the second verse flows in a steady rhythm of 9 syllables. Very different structure, but the fact that they do change the structure from verse to verse only gives the song that much more variety. 

Right, but they do it in a subtle way. It's not an obvious transition.

Actually, to take it one step further, it's like this...

First chorus, first time through is 4/4 second time is 3/4.

Second chorus, first time through is 4/4, second time is 6/8.

Listen to it again... Pretty sweet.

That's right, I forgot about that.

[Elite]

Nice breakdown there!

[jonnybaxy]

Has Dream Theater ever used Hemidemisemiquavers in their music?

Surely Stream of Consciousness guitar solo...

[JRuivo]

Finally I find a thread where I can put this: I've always wanted to know what modes/scales JR used in his piano moments on SDOIT (Blind Faith, About to Crash, etc). Especially About to Crash, that piano intro always reminds me of some other artist/music but I can't remember who or what.

[Mosh]

The piano moments on Blind Faith and About To Crash use A minor and E major respectively. So no fancy modes.

[BlobVanDam]

The piano moments on Blind Faith and About To Crash use A minor and E major respectively. So no fancy modes.

About To Crash is mixolydian, isn't it? It has a D in there.

I think the reason JR's piano parts sound great is his style and note choice. And big scale runs!

[Mosh]

You're right about that yea, should've known since all of About To Crash is mixolydian. 

I haven't analyzed JR's playing, but from just listening and knowing some of his preferences, he seems less of a modal player than JP.

[Ultimetalhead]

On The Backs Of Angels - E major

OTBOA is most definitely in E minor. There's hardly a major sounding tonality in the entire song.

[Mosh]

You're right, typo on my part.

[JRuivo]

The piano moments on Blind Faith and About To Crash use A minor and E major respectively. So no fancy modes.

I can tell which chords they are, I was asking more about the modes and I remembered what JR's playing on those ages reminded me of: the Sims soundtrack 

[Mosh]

Those aren't the chords, those are the scales. Though I was wrong about the E major, it's actually E mixolydian (which is the mode of that entire section).

So if you want it in mode form, it's A Aeolian and E Mixolydian.

[The Boomr]

Holy crap, just discovered this thread...I'm gonna nerdgasm everywhere when I'm off work today and can start contributing to this and throwing in my own analyses! CAUSE I GOT LOTS OF EM BOYS

[kirksnosehair]

So I've always wanted to know the technical aspects of Dream Theater's music. For example: Song keys, modes, time signatures, song structures, etc. I want to compare songs and see what the differences are and why some songs usually get more playback. Also I'd like to learn about it to expand my horizons for my band. So who has any ideas how to start? Should we make a list?

Well from a music theory stand point, Octavarium is pretty interesting. Lots of subtleties throughout the album, you see 5/8 pretty often. I'm not sure what you're looking for exactly though.

As a music theory student and enthusiast, I would have to say that the idea of Octavarium is actually very interesting.  The 8th studio album having 8 tracks on it, each track beginning on one of the 8 degrees of the major scale.....a pretty cool idea that sounds and looks good on paper.  I just think the results on the album were.....mediocre.


As far as Dream Theater and the flexing of music theory chops in general goes, I think this is THE band for aspiring rock musicians to get into.  Hell, when you attend a Dream Theater concert, it's like a musician's convention.  Especially the shows in Boston.  Probably 25% of the audience when they play Boston are students at Berkelee.

[The Boomr]

So I've always wanted to know the technical aspects of Dream Theater's music. For example: Song keys, modes, time signatures, song structures, etc. I want to compare songs and see what the differences are and why some songs usually get more playback. Also I'd like to learn about it to expand my horizons for my band. So who has any ideas how to start? Should we make a list?

Well from a music theory stand point, Octavarium is pretty interesting. Lots of subtleties throughout the album, you see 5/8 pretty often. I'm not sure what you're looking for exactly though.

As a music theory student and enthusiast, I would have to say that the idea of Octavarium is actually very interesting.  The 8th studio album having 8 tracks on it, each track beginning on one of the 8 degrees of the major scale.....a pretty cool idea that sounds and looks good on paper.  I just think the results on the album were.....mediocre.


As far as Dream Theater and the flexing of music theory chops in general goes, I think this is THE band for aspiring rock musicians to get into.  Hell, when you attend a Dream Theater concert, it's like a musician's convention.  Especially the shows in Boston.  Probably 25% of the audience when they play Boston are students at Berkelee.

Personally I find the results of 8VM quite pleasing, and even more so when I first discovered that conceptual idea of the musical octave embedded in the whole album. Not sure if you were aware, but all those little interlude-type tracks on 8VM between the regular songs? Those are also in the key of whatever half-step it is at that point in the octave. Blew my mind.

[Laich21DT]

Could someone break down Learning to Live? Specifically, the intro? I've heard that the beginning has a descending time signature thing going on, with each consecutive measure containing one fewer beat. This thread is awesome, definitely have my learning cap on for this one. 

[MadImmortalMan]

Could someone break down Learning to Live? Specifically, the intro? I've heard that the beginning has a descending time signature thing going on, with each consecutive measure containing one fewer beat. This thread is awesome, definitely have my learning cap on for this one. 

The keyboards are in 15/8. The division goes: 3-3-2-2-2-3. The last 2 and 3 are a little ambiguous, but that's what I hear. The drums come in with a simple 2/4 beat underneath, creating a polyrhythm. Music student here, hope this helps.

[Mosh]

I always count it as quarter notes: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7+ Basically 7/4 with an extra 8th. 
Easier for me, though 3-3-2-2-2-3 is technically the correct way. I've never been a fan of dividing meters like that, for some reason.