DT's business model . . .

[Dream Team]

 . . . might at first glance seem counter-intuitive. For a band that is not wildly popular and does not sell millions of albums, touring a lot would seem to be the way to go to bring in more fans and make more money. For example, after finishing the first legs of the world tour, they would take a break and then go back out with a completely different set; maybe an "epics" set with ACOS, OV, ITPOE, etc or perhaps something with the 12-step saga, or 10th anniversary TOT shows. But DT does not operate that way.

Instead, they are faithfully back in the studio every 18 months, and I believe they just enjoy the creative process so much (as opposed to Metallica for example) and have such a glut of ideas that they love making new albums. They make enough from touring to live comfortably and finance the recordings, which is great for us. Thoughts?

[emtee]

I remember reading from a couple album cycles ago how much the studio time cost. It was eye popping. And I've always wondered
why the band/label spends so much money creating/writting in the studio vs. having it be a place of execution. Obviously it's
worked fine for them and they all seem to be paying their bills with $$ for chicken nuggets but you add up all that studio cost
over several albums and we're talkin' mega millions that could have gone elsewhere. I've always been curious about this choice
from a purely financial standpoint.

[TL]

I'm basing this on absolutely nothing, but;

While they're not the most known band out there, I'd say they sell enough albums worldwide each time around to more than pay for studio costs, and then touring and such is where they make their livelihood. They're also a band where a large segment of their fanbase actually wants to hear new material when they go to see them live.

Plus, as has been pointed out, I'd say they enjoy writing new material and making albums, so it's not at all surprising that they do so pretty regularly.

It does surprise me that they tend to write in a rented studio rather than just one of them having a home studio that they meet up at for that phase, but they seem to like being able to record at the same time, so I suppose that's why.

[Kotowboy]

I'm sure they're all tech savvy enough in the band to each have a home studio of some kind.

In this day and age - you can rehearse until the album is ready then they could each record their own parts separately in their own studios at home then send it to John who would sit with an engineer and assemble it.

I thought the days of recording big albums in massive studios was a thing of the past.

It needn't cost millions these days. But if DT have the money to spend on studio time - why not ?

plus it's probably RR who put up the money then claim it back off album sales later.

[bosk1]

Since Mike Portnoy was the mouthpiece of the band for so long, I don't think many people realize this, but JP is VERY business minded.  If you ever get talking about the business side of the band with him at all, that become obvious very quickly.  I am pretty certain that he feels very strongly that the business model of the band works very well.

Regarding the album/touring cycle, from an outsider's perspective, I think they've got the ratio about right.  You are right about their album sales numbers.  They are good, but not so good that the band could just live on album sales.  The big money is in touring and merch sales.  And they do tour a good amount.  They have good attendance at their shows, which allows promoters to consistently book them at good venues.  But the market for their music isn't nearly as big as it is for bigger rock and metal acts because as much as we here all love prog metal, it just isn't mainstream.  There is only a certain amount of touring a band can do in a certain amount of time without saturating the market.  And if you oversaturate and tickets do not sell, promoters are less willing to book you at good venues, and you get into a cycle that is NOT good for the business side of the band at all.  DT seem to have reached a pretty good balance.  They could perhaps tour a bit more than they do, but IMO not a lot without potential saturation.*  New albums provide a double benefit.  This is a band that, fortunately for us, likes to create.  So it is fulfilling for them.  The other benefit is that a new album gives an additional reason to tour, an additional reason for fans who have already seen the band to buy tickets, and, consequently, an additinal reason for promoters to want to book shows.  So the two work hand-in-hand (i.e., regular releases help keep saturation in check so the band can keep touring).  I'm sure there is a lot more to it than that, but that is a very simplified model.

As far as doing their writing in the studio, all I can say is, that is what they are comfortable with, and they feel that their writing thrives in that sort of environment.  If that is what they feel works best, I can't really argue with it.  Again, JP appears to me to be VERY on top of the business side of things, and I am sure that if he felt the cost wasn't justified, they wouldn't use that model.  But it appears to work from both a creative and financial standpoint, so there you go.

The topics raised in this thread are very interesting.  I would encourage you guys to file some questions away in the back of your minds in the event you ever get the chance to ask the bandmembers about these things yourselves some day.



*The exception to this, IMO, would be the Black Clouds tour.  They under-toured on that album.  In fact, there wasn't even a North American DT headlining tour in support of it.  Only Prog Nation and the shows opening for Maiden.  My personal theory is that many in the band were not happy about that decision in retrospect, and that that was a factor in why they did not want to follow Mike Portnoy's suggestion to take a hiatus.  BCSL was their highest charting album, and they had been riding a wave of momentum, only to stall that momentum on the tour cycle.  I would guess that everyone felt like it was a critical time for the long-term viability of the band, and that it was time to get the momentum moving forward again while they still had some, rather than let it just evaporate altogether and have to start from scratch a few years down the road.

[Samsara]

DT is not your typical band either. Yep, on the surface, it would appear some of the choices they make regarding writing in the studio and booking that studio for X amount of weeks and months is a bad one. But they've likely got that accounted for with their business manager and financial people.

Also, I don't know what their record contract is, but many savvy bands these days own their music and pay for the recording on their own dime, and provide an exclusive license to the label to put it out. The business model is very different than it used to be.

Back in the day (and it still happens now too), bands would get a record deal, but would sign over all album sales and money over to the label to pay back the advance money they were given to record the record. If the record exploded and sold millions, the company would be paid back and the guys would make a good deal of cash.

But records don't sell, so companies typically don't dish out all that money to artists any longer to pay for making a record. Many of the more business savvy bands just do those distribution and license deals with companies now and negotiate percentage of sales in agreement for the licensing and distribution.

I'm not sure what DT does with Roadrunner, but obviously it has worked for them. Personally, I'm not a fan of writing in the studio. I think songs should be worked over, together, outside the studio and then edited and polished up in pre-pro THEN get into the studio fully rehearsed and ready to record.

But the guys must really like the spontaneity writing and recording in the studio like that gives them. Expensive as hell, but Dream Theater as a business entity does well, and that's likely all accounted for in their business expenses.

Would love to talk biz with JP one day. I'm not a musician, but I do have a big interest in the entertainment industry, specifically music, and the types of deals and arrangements bands are doing these days and what the trends are with contracts.

[FourthHorseman]

I think the concept of touring extensively to expand the fan base is overrated.  While it might pull in some fans, I think releasing new music is just as good or better. Nearly every time there is a new release, there is a single on Youtube that thousands of people, many of them not DT fans, are viewing. This along with music news websites reviewing and covering the album's release generates a lot more publicity than touring, at least for a band that isn't "mainstream".   

But I could be wrong.

[bosk1]

I think the concept of touring extensively to expand the fan base is overrated.  While it might pull in some fans, I think releasing new music is just as good or better. Nearly every time there is a new release, there is a single on Youtube that thousands of people, many of them not DT fans, are viewing. This along with music news websites reviewing and covering the album's release generates a lot more publicity than touring, at least for a band that isn't "mainstream".

Fair point.  BUT, I don't think a primary reason for touring is to expand the fanbase anyway.  Touring is a way to bring the music directly to the fans and, in doing so, to earn the bulk of the money the band is capable of earning because they earn comparatively much less from album sales.

[jonnybaxy]

Another factor in this is that DT fans will buy absolutely anything they release, merch and collectibles are a good profit for the band too.

[jingle.boy]

Don't forget there's big bucks on the meet 'n' greets.  Add merch, and the tickets, and that's where the money is.

For most places in NA, I think it would be generous to say they average 3000 per show.  Most indoor venues are less; outdoor are more.  Ticket prices top out at what, $60 for DT (and I think that's generous).  So, let's say an average of $175k per show.  Pay all the crew, expenses, promoters, opening act (not this time though!) etc... etc... it's still more than the profit they'd see in record sales.

I think their cycle works perfectly for them.  It also allows them to do side projects (shows and recording).

[Mindflux]

Don't forget there's big bucks on the meet 'n' greets.  Add merch, and the tickets, and that's where the money is.

For most places in NA, I think it would be generous to say they average 3000 per show.  Most indoor venues are less; outdoor are more.  Ticket prices top out at what, $60 for DT (and I think that's generous).  So, let's say an average of $175k per show.  Pay all the crew, expenses, promoters, opening act (not this time though!) etc... etc... it's still more than the profit they'd see in record sales.

I think their cycle works perfectly for them.  It also allows them to do side projects (shows and recording).

Lets not forget most acts get some cut of the concessions.

[chrisbDTM]

it must suck to have to do a meet&greet every single day but that really rakes in the $$$

the writing in the studio is a little counter-intuitive. they can easily rent a practice space for much cheaper and still get rough recordings of everything they write. then bring the finished product in the studio. but hey they do what they want

[BlobVanDam]

DT are too inspired and creative as a band to not record albums. The fact they're still recording an album every couple of years, and still steady/gaining in popularity is a testament to their ability to remain relevant while staying true to their core sound.

If they stopped releasing new music, they could start losing that, and have less reason to bring in the crowds each tour. Most bands at this point in their career release an album as an excuse to tour, then only play one or two token songs from the new album, then the rest is their tried and true best-of setlist. But DT play most/all of their new album on tour, and the fans enjoy having a whole new album of good material to hear live, as well as an entirely different setlist of older songs each tour.

[aprilethereal]

DT are too inspired and creative as a band to not record albums. The fact they're still recording an album every couple of years, and still steady/gaining in popularity is a testament to their ability to remain relevant while staying true to their core sound.

If they stopped releasing new music, they could start losing that, and have less reason to bring in the crowds each tour. Most bands at this point in their career release an album as an excuse to tour, then only play one or two token songs from the new album, then the rest is their tried and true best-of setlist. But DT play most/all of their new album on tour, and the fans enjoy having a whole new album of good material to hear live, as well as an entirely different setlist of older songs each tour.

I definitely agree with you here, DT still seems to be very ambitious and confident of their new material, so doing albums is still a very important aspect of the band. I think for them personally, it's eve more important than touring, although I might be wrong here.

[Kotowboy]

DT are too inspired and creative as a band to not record albums. The fact they're still recording an album every couple of years, and still steady/gaining in popularity is a testament to their ability to remain relevant while staying true to their core sound.

If they stopped releasing new music, they could start losing that, and have less reason to bring in the crowds each tour. Most bands at this point in their career release an album as an excuse to tour, then only play one or two token songs from the new album, then the rest is their tried and true best-of setlist. But DT play most/all of their new album on tour, and the fans enjoy having a whole new album of good material to hear live, as well as an entirely different setlist of older songs each tour.

I wish all bands did this. Metallica do a basically Greatest Hits tour every year and albums are not a priority anymore.

[theseoafs]

DT are too inspired and creative as a band to not record albums. The fact they're still recording an album every couple of years, and still steady/gaining in popularity is a testament to their ability to remain relevant while staying true to their core sound.

If they stopped releasing new music, they could start losing that, and have less reason to bring in the crowds each tour. Most bands at this point in their career release an album as an excuse to tour, then only play one or two token songs from the new album, then the rest is their tried and true best-of setlist. But DT play most/all of their new album on tour, and the fans enjoy having a whole new album of good material to hear live, as well as an entirely different setlist of older songs each tour.

It's honestly incredible.  I've seen Journey a couple times on the tours for their most recent two studio albums, and each time they did exactly what you said -- one or two songs off the new record, surrounded by radio hits.  (On the tour for Eclipse, they didn't even play any stuff from Revelation, even though a lot of that music kicked ass, I thought.)  Meanwhile, DT's got a fanbase that reacted negatively when the band didn't perform enough of the new album at the first ADTOE shows.

[BlobVanDam]

DT are too inspired and creative as a band to not record albums. The fact they're still recording an album every couple of years, and still steady/gaining in popularity is a testament to their ability to remain relevant while staying true to their core sound.

If they stopped releasing new music, they could start losing that, and have less reason to bring in the crowds each tour. Most bands at this point in their career release an album as an excuse to tour, then only play one or two token songs from the new album, then the rest is their tried and true best-of setlist. But DT play most/all of their new album on tour, and the fans enjoy having a whole new album of good material to hear live, as well as an entirely different setlist of older songs each tour.

It's honestly incredible.  I've seen Journey a couple times on the tours for their most recent two studio albums, and each time they did exactly what you said -- one or two songs off the new record, surrounded by radio hits.  (On the tour for Eclipse, they didn't even play any stuff from Revelation, even though a lot of that music kicked ass, I thought.)  Meanwhile, DT's got a fanbase that reacted negatively when the band didn't perform enough of the new album at the first ADTOE shows.

I saw Journey opening for Deep Purple (75 minute set), and I was disappointed that they did NOTHING off Revelation or Eclipse, and I think they're both pretty strong albums with a lot of great songs. I only went in with the expectation of one or two from the new album, and instead got nothing at all past 1983!

I can't otherwise complain, as I love all of the hits, but big bands like that must feel obligated to play all of the hits the casual fans paid to see, and I can't blame them for it.
As DT don't have any mainstream hits besides PMU, they're free to just play anything, all of which is appreciated by at least a fair portion of the fanbase. That's surely more satisfying and interesting for DT, and it's certainly more interesting to me as a fan too. I don't think there were any full duplicate songs from the two DT shows I saw, so it's always worth seeing them again. Other bands I can see once, and I'm fine to never see them again, because it's going to be the same experience.

[Lucien]

DT are too inspired and creative as a band to not record albums. The fact they're still recording an album every couple of years, and still steady/gaining in popularity is a testament to their ability to remain relevant while staying true to their core sound.

If they stopped releasing new music, they could start losing that, and have less reason to bring in the crowds each tour. Most bands at this point in their career release an album as an excuse to tour, then only play one or two token songs from the new album, then the rest is their tried and true best-of setlist. But DT play most/all of their new album on tour, and the fans enjoy having a whole new album of good material to hear live, as well as an entirely different setlist of older songs each tour.

It's honestly incredible.  I've seen Journey a couple times on the tours for their most recent two studio albums, and each time they did exactly what you said -- one or two songs off the new record, surrounded by radio hits.  (On the tour for Eclipse, they didn't even play any stuff from Revelation, even though a lot of that music kicked ass, I thought.)  Meanwhile, DT's got a fanbase that reacted negatively when the band didn't perform enough of the new album at the first ADTOE shows.

I saw Journey opening for Deep Purple (75 minute set), and I was disappointed that they did NOTHING off Revelation or Eclipse, and I think they're both pretty strong albums with a lot of great songs. I only went in with the expectation of one or two from the new album, and instead got nothing at all past 1983!

I can't otherwise complain, as I love all of the hits, but big bands like that must feel obligated to play all of the hits the casual fans paid to see, and I can't blame them for it.
As DT don't have any mainstream hits besides PMU, they're free to just play anything, all of which is appreciated by at least a fair portion of the fanbase. That's surely more satisfying and interesting for DT, and it's certainly more interesting to me as a fan too. I don't think there were any full duplicate songs from the two DT shows I saw, so it's always worth seeing them again. Other bands I can see once, and I'm fine to never see them again, because it's going to be the same experience.

I'm really glad Rush didn't do a hits concert this time. They played a bunch of their mid-80's songs (many underrated), almost ALL of Clockwork Angels, and a few popular songs new and old (Far Cry, Tom Sawyer, Spirit of Radio, 2112, etc)

[Kotowboy]

It can go the other way as well . .

I'm not an Iron Maiden fan at all - but back when they released 2006's album A Matter Of Life & Death ( ? )

People were complaining that they pretty much played that entire album and then a couple of hits.

[theseoafs]

You guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's the more casual fans that were upset by that.  I'm happy Maiden took that risk (though I wish they would continue to take risks in, well, any of their other concert tours).

[TL]

I'm really glad Rush didn't do a hits concert this time. They played a bunch of their mid-80's songs (many underrated), almost ALL of Clockwork Angels, and a few popular songs new and old (Far Cry, Tom Sawyer, Spirit of Radio, 2112, etc)

This. They had a really good set when I saw them a couple weeks ago. As you said, almost all of Clockwork Angels in the second set (only not playing BU2B, which they played on a previous tour, BU2B2, which is a reprise, and Wish Them Well, which is a decent song but weaker than the songs they did play), which was great because it's a fantastic album. Also, most of the older songs weren't obvious hits (lots of Power Windows, and Force Ten was unexpected but pretty neat). Where's My Thing was a lot of fun.

In a context like that, a few hits are a treat rather than tiresome. Like, on the flipside of that, Journey has some good songs, but these days it would almost feel redundant seeing them on more than one tour.

[hefdaddy42]

I think the concept of touring extensively to expand the fan base is overrated. 

Phish would like a word with you.

[nikatapi]

Well as many said, booking a studio for months seems like a waste of money a bit, but it seems that they enjoy the process and they have the financial power to do it.

I think they manage to have a good balance of touring-releasing new material, since the fanbase is always anxious for new music.

The only thing I don't like are the M&G, for such a non-mainstream band it seems like a money grab and a bit hypocritical in the sense that they say that they are close with the fans. Of course it is a choice but I would never pay to meet them.

Anyway, it seems that the model is working quite well, and we get good music frequently, as well as seeing them live often (not so often in my country unfortunately).

[Thematt202]

As Rich said in the studio clips, the guys were set up in such a way that when the magic happened, that particular take would make it all the way through to the final album mix.  This wouldn't be possible if they used a different recording model.

[hefdaddy42]

Another thing regarding the writing/recording in the studio.  These guys are family guys, not rock stars.  They value their time with their families, which is why they tour the way they do - no tour leg lasts longer than 4-5 weeks at the most, with at least a couple of weeks break in between.  They don't all live in the same neighborhood, or even country.  It would be a further strain on their families to get together in the same place to write, and then again to demo, and then again to record the album.  And I realize that some of that stuff can be done remotely from each other if they wanted to, but they do their writing TOGETHER, in the room, jamming it out.  That's how they do it.  So booking a studio and doing their writing and recording in one shot is the best way for them to write their music the way they always have, and to minimize the impact on their families and continue the lifestyle they have established for themselves.  I honestly don't see a better way to do it.

[chaotic_ripper]

Another thing regarding the writing/recording in the studio.  These guys are family guys, not rock stars.  They value their time with their families, which is why they tour the way they do - no tour leg lasts longer than 4-5 weeks at the most, with at least a couple of weeks break in between.  They don't all live in the same neighborhood, or even country.  It would be a further strain on their families to get together in the same place to write, and then again to demo, and then again to record the album.  And I realize that some of that stuff can be done remotely from each other if they wanted to, but they do their writing TOGETHER, in the room, jamming it out.  That's how they do it.  So booking a studio and doing their writing and recording in one shot is the best way for them to write their music the way they always have, and to minimize the impact on their families and continue the lifestyle they have established for themselves.  I honestly don't see a better way to do it.

QFT

[Madman Shepherd]

Another thing regarding the writing/recording in the studio.  These guys are family guys, not rock stars.  They value their time with their families, which is why they tour the way they do - no tour leg lasts longer than 4-5 weeks at the most, with at least a couple of weeks break in between.  They don't all live in the same neighborhood, or even country.  It would be a further strain on their families to get together in the same place to write, and then again to demo, and then again to record the album.  And I realize that some of that stuff can be done remotely from each other if they wanted to, but they do their writing TOGETHER, in the room, jamming it out.  That's how they do it.  So booking a studio and doing their writing and recording in one shot is the best way for them to write their music the way they always have, and to minimize the impact on their families and continue the lifestyle they have established for themselves.  I honestly don't see a better way to do it.

It is also interesting that James, according to my memory of an interview, said that the one thing he asked when joining Dream Theater is if he could stay in Canada.  While that meant he was obviously the furthest away and in some ways, the least involved, it was important to him to remain content in his personal life.  I think that also probably, in a roundabout way, encouraged Dream Theater to really choose how they wrote and recorded more carefully which has made the end result as good as it has been. 

[aprilethereal]

That's something I have a lot of respect for. How they manage to be that family oriented, although they are a pretty big, successful and busy band