Why is Systematic Chaos hated so much?

[PwnsomeWin]

Just as the title says. I've noticed that SC is really hated around the community. I honestly don't see why; out of the six DT albums I own (IAW, Awake, BC&SL, 8VM, TOT, SC), Systematic Chaos is my second favorite. I don't think any song on it is bad. The Dark Eternal Night is the only song that I can understand being hated, but I like that song as well. I just want to hear your opinions on why you dislike this album, if you do.

[Lucien]

Prophets of War is hated MUCH more than The Dark Eternal Night.

Most people say it's the sound of the album that is bad about it, others say it's too "metal". It's funny this came up because right now I'm listening to In the Presence of Enemies Part 2.

Ehhh, it's so different from all their other albums.

[me7]

Nothing wrong with TDEN in my book, but Constant Motion and Prophets of War are uninspired and Repentance drags on for too long. ITPOE, Forsaken and MOLS are winners for me.

[cyberdrummer]

I don't hate it, but it's certainly inconsistent and in the lower tier of DT albums. It's better than BCSL though.

[BlobVanDam]

Hooray! This thread is going to be great!


TDEN is actually one of my favourite DT songs. Probably not top 10, but probably top 20. Haters gonna hate.

[Joshin U]

Because as an album, it's just not that great, but as a DREAM THEATER album, it's subpar at best. For one thing, it's hard to take the whole thing seriously because of the comic book-y and fantasy vibes.  They make it sound fun and all, but also a step back in terms of maturity and songwriting ability. 

On top of these vibes, SC contains the most "bottom of the list DT songs" than any other album (save FII for some). TDEN, CM, PoW, and Forsaken are all genuinely loathed by many, and TMOLS and Repentence are usually shrugged off as mediocre.  ITPOE is relatively well-liked, but overall, most people put at least three of those songs in the least favorite DT songs list.

SC is Fun and has a good song or two, but is also weak for DT and not as mature as their other works.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

SC is great. The last two tracks are the best 30 consecutive minutes of DT material ever, in my eyes.

[serrano]

I like most of SC, actually i only dislike CM (but great JP solo).

[?]

My problem with SC is that almost all the songs have cringeworthy moments that drag them down, which makes it the low point of DT's discography for me. I like the first two tracks, but getting through the rest of the album is an unpleasant chore. The lyrics don't help, either

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I like Systematic Chaos. Not one of my top Dream Theater albums, probably 6 or 7, but still a fantastic album.

[BlackInk]

Brace yourselves, lists are coming.

Forsaken - It's okay, but not really special in any way
Constant Motion - I don't like this one very much, but wouldn't say that I hate it.
The Dark Eternal Night - Interrsting and fun musically, but not good. Horrible horrible lyrics.
Repentance - Great one. Really like the mood and themes.
Prophets of War - Pretty cool. Not among the best but better than the first two.
The Ministry of Lost Souls - Awesome. One of DT's best these past years.
In the Presence of Enemies - Absolutely incredible. One of their best ever.

Overall I'd say Systematic Chaos is a pretty decent album. Not the best, or even close, but still fine.

[PwnsomeWin]

Prophets of War is hated MUCH more than The Dark Eternal Night.

Yeah, I know. I meant I can see why TDEN could be hated, but not the others.

[20th Century Icon]

The thing that makes me listen to it less often is the way too hot mastering. Same reason why I rarely listen to Rush's Vapor Trails.

[Kotowboy]

I can listen to it but It came immediately after my favourite Dream Theater album.

Whereas Octavarium is quite varied, has a really nice light, airy production and a killer title track -

- I found Systematic Chaos to be mostly average songs and fairly front loaded and is way too boxy and compressed.

For a while I only liked the first 4 songs. Then I only liked the last 4 songs.

I found that as an album - it got boring really quickly - although I can still listen to TDEN now and then.

Also - I don't think In The Presence Of Enemies Part 2 is anywhere near as good as Part 1

Black Clouds suffers from similar problems. Some mediocre songs surrounded by epics that just go on way too long.

A Nightmare to Remember is really dragged out and really does not need to be 16 minutes long. I listen to it and get near the end and I always think

" This song is STILL going ! " .

A Dramatic Turn Of Events was a step in the right direction. The songs are of decent length. No song is ridiculously long for the sake of it and the songs

are good enough to the point where I still enjoy the album two years on.

[/dissertation]

[theseoafs]

Most people say it's the sound of the album that is bad about it, others say it's too "metal".

Really?  I've heard a lot of people talk down SC, but I've never heard people say the reason they dislike it is the bad or "metal" sound.

Anyway, SC is my least favorite Dream Theater album and I rarely listen to it.  I think ITPOE Part I is alright, and Prophets of War is pretty good.  But on the whole, I just don't think the music is that great, honestly.  It's just Dream Theater on autopilot to me:  they went through all the motions (bombastic opener, a few singles, 12-step song, a few epics, including one 25-minute one) and produced an album that I think is lacking in musically inspired or interesting sections.

[Kotowboy]

It must have been difficult to follow up Octavarium because that album was so well though out with regards to the F minor scale and beginning where you started theme and all the interactions between tracks and that immense title track.



Actually - considering DTs penchant for numbers - i'm surprised Black Clouds wasn't more of a big deal considering it was their 10th studio album.

[Voices]

I don not hate it...actually it's one of the albuns that I listen more often, especially ITPOE, TMOLS and Forsaken. And after I saw TDEN live, I started to appreciate this one even more.
I don't think it's a solid album, but it's not a bad one too.

[Perpetual Change]

Here's a couple reasons:

1. Bad sequencing. The good songs on the album are frontloaded, with all the weaker songs on the album crammed together toward the middle and end. SC is probably the only DT album where there's multiple instances of back-to-back songs I don't like, which always makes me hesistant to spin the record in full. 

By extension, they didn't do the epic any favors by chopping it in half. Part One builds such great momentum, but by the time you get to Part Two, all the momentum is gone. It's like watching your favorite Football team kick off the second half of a game, when halftime just ended what could have been a scoring drive.

2. Subpar sound. The album is clippy, and tiring on the ears. The 5.1 mix is probably the most shoddily done in my collection.

3. Fantasy lyrics. Before SC, DT generally wrote lyrics that were either intellectual or personal. SC lyrics are neither. Not everyone dug the more escapist content of the record. I didn't mind it personally, but thought sounded odd coming from DT.

[krands85]

Definitely in the lower half of DT records for me, but I still enjoy it more than most seem to I think. It's certainly lacking consistency, though the only song I really dislike is Repentance. ItPoE and TMoLS on the other hand are awesome.

[jdprsaga]

in my personal opinion, I like it better than octavarium

What i don't like from it?  the sound quality and forsaken
What could have been better in my book? the ministry of lost souls is to long, i would remove "The Slaughter of The Damned" from ITPOE
My favorite parts? The heritic and Salvation.. James shines in this two. The ministry of lost souls instrumental break.

[bosk1]

Just as the title says. I've noticed that SC is really hated around the community. I honestly don't see why; out of the six DT albums I own (IAW, Awake, BC&SL, 8VM, TOT, SC), Systematic Chaos is my second favorite. I don't think any song on it is bad. The Dark Eternal Night is the only song that I can understand being hated, but I like that song as well. I just want to hear your opinions on why you dislike this album, if you do.

Well, when you start a thread assuming that pretty much everybody hates someting, you're already kind of missing the mark and making an assumption that will probably prove to be incorrect.  Some people dislike it.  Some really like it.  I think most would say something along the lines of: it has some cool moments, but that it is overall one of the weaker albums in the DT catalog.

Somebody up above mentioned a consistency issue.  That probably sums up how I feel about it.  I've started threads in the past about how great 2/3 or so of the album is.  The problem is, the other 1/3 or so doesn't do it for me at all.  SC is pretty much the only DT album where I almost never listen to the entire album and have instead made a SC playlist of only the songs that I like.  I would put the album about on par with Images and Words in terms of having about the same ratio of stuff I love to stuff I don't care to listen to. 

My typical playlist, in order, is:
-ITPOE (1 and 2)
-Forsaken
-Constant Motion
-The Dark Eternal Night

Those are all great songs, hands down, and I never get tired of them.  I have Reptence on my list as well, but often just stop after the first four songs.  Repentence has some truly great moments, capped off by JP's guitar solo.  And the concept for the song is brilliant.  But there is no variation and the song is SO long that I feel it just overstays its welcome. 

I just don't like Prophets at all, and while TMOLS works better as a closer, I don't really like it much more than Prophets.

So, overall, really good album, but has a large chunk of music that I am just not interested in listening to oftentimes.  Still, I probably listen to my modified version of SC more than I listen to most other DT albums nowadays other than ADTOE.  It still usually gets played several times a week. 

[Voices]

Some good and bad points that I recall now:

1 good point - James sounds FANTASTIC on this album.

2 good point - Jordan is really great too.

1 bad point - Repentance could be WAY better than it is. I like the song, but it starts to be boring after the first listen. A cool moog solo on it, or even a lapsteel (like Octavarium) would make it really better.

[Kotowboy]

Oh, and INB4 Rob Webster and " Fun Little Album ".





( affectionately of course ! x )

[puppyonacid]

I think generally speaking, when DT albums seem "hated", it's only in the context of their other albums.

[The Stray Seed]

To me, it could actually be considered a strong album. What makes it weak is the fact it's by DT. They've recorded too many unbelievable masterpieces... and the downside of this is that the bar is set veeeery high.

[Tom Bombadil]

Compared to DT's other releases, SC just isn't very good. The metal parts (constant motion and TDEN) are just silly and the softer songs (repentance, forsaken) are rather boring. ITPOE can't stand up to other DT epics. Prophets of war is just plain bad. TMOLS is prob my favorite song off the album, but it still goes on about 6 minutes too long. So yeah, not exactly DT at their best, although it would be a pretty solid album with another band. It's just when you compare it to other DT when it starts to look pretty poor

[emtee]

Just pulled it out a couple days ago. Generally a fun energetic listen with some skippable songs. Not great sonically.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I think it suffers from the "songs long for the sake of being long" conundrum. This marked the first album in which Mike Portnoy's vocals were very in the front and present, which I don't like at all. I remember him on an interview saying that helped the band have a balance between James' lighter vocals and MP's "harsh" ones... but I don't think that was quite necessary, Train of Thought did just fine with James leading the whole thing. Hell, Awake! Vocals sound friggin' heavy, harsh and melodic on that one and no "FOREVERMOAR INTO THE NIGHT BLISTERING" was needed.

[WildeSilas]

Fucking Ministry of Lost Fucking Souls. Put this song on an album with 11 other best DT songs and it makes for a shitty album. It's that bad. 

[Dark Castle]

I love Systematic Chaos, and hate Train of Thought, so I guess I like them sounding like Dream Theater being heavy, Train of Thought to me sounded like them trying to emulate other bands who were heavy.

[Joshin U]

Fucking Ministry of Lost Fucking Souls. Put this song on an album with 11 other best DT songs and it makes for a shitty album. It's that bad. 

Whoa now, let's not get carried away.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I love Systematic Chaos, and hate Train of Thought, so I guess I like them sounding like Dream Theater being heavy, Train of Thought to me sounded like them trying to emulate other bands who were heavy.

Really? It's completely the opposite for me. Train of Thought, though taking lots of influences by other heavy bands, still sounds like DT (IMO). Systematic Chaos, on the other hand, suffers from worse lyrics, some DT failed experiments, The Ministry of Lost Souls and Portnoy-forced vocals among other things. I mean, with the subject of Portnoy vocals, they were excellent in The Glass Prison. You know, back then they didn't sound forced at all and it made sense, with him singing in such a personal song for him, but later on the whole idea went down under its own weight.

Oh, and the mix in Train of Thought is miles better than the one in Systematic Chaos. At least, the bass is audible and complements the heavy-tastic Petrucci guitar tone.

[LBC.]

Because is a really bad album (in concept, lyrics, sound...).

I only enjoy ITPOE Pt.1 and Repentance.

[bosk1]

I feel like I need to remind people of the forum rules regaridng criticism.  Keep in mind that criticism is welcome, provided that it is constructive criticism.  Pointless bashing is a violation of forum rules.  If you cannot voice your opinion in a constructive way, please keep it to yourself.

[Ruba]

Because people doesn't understand good music  .

Nah, I like it, but I can see why some doesn't. It's less proggy than 8VM, and they tried out some new things, like the Queen/Muse-vibe in POW, more modern metal approach in ITPOE and TDEN and the athmospheric on Repentance, which clearly turned some fans off. And I agree that the lyrical content is sometimes weak.

I dislike Constant Motion strongly, but other than that, a very good album.

I think it suffers from the "songs long for the sake of being long" conundrum. This marked the first album in which Mike Portnoy's vocals were very in the front and present, which I don't like at all. I remember him on an interview saying that helped the band have a balance between James' lighter vocals and MP's "harsh" ones... but I don't think that was quite necessary, Train of Thought did just fine with James leading the whole thing. Hell, Awake! Vocals sound friggin' heavy, harsh and melodic on that one and no "FOREVERMOAR INTO THE NIGHT BLISTERING" was needed.

I don't think so. Awake-James would've pulled TOT out nicely, but I feel his voice in 2003 lacks power. And I like most of the MP's backing vocals.

Anyway, I wouldn't like TOT very much more in that case either. Not my kind of music.