Why is Systematic Chaos hated so much?

[hefdaddy42]

There are a couple of things that stand out for me on this album.

1) The fantasy lyrics.  I include ITPOE, Forsaken, TDEN, and TMOLS.  That's way over half the album (time-wise) doing something that DT hadn't really done before, and that lesser bands frankly do better.  I think that if you are going to experiment with something that other bands do, you have to do it exceptionally well, or you aren't bringing anything new to the table.

2) Constant Motion.  While I admit to liking the instrumental section quite a bit, I find the rest of the song quite off-putting.  The music sounds like something from Load-era Metallica, and the lyrics sound amateurish.

3) Forsaken.  It's not a bad song per se, I suppose, but there's nothing DT-ish about it, either.  This is a song that could have been done by any band, and songs like that are some of my least favorite in the DT catalogue.

4) Prophets of War.  I think the breakdown to the acoustic guitar is pretty neat, within the context of the song.  But the rest of the song should have probably been aborted.  I can find no redeeming qualities.  I find it shocking that this made it onto an actual DT album.

5) Repentance.  I think that it is a great idea, but the execution missed the mark.  I think the lyrics are pretty good, and I love the overall mood of the song.  And JP's solo is fantastic.  But the sample section goes on a little too long, and I think that both the intro and outros are also too long, which makes an otherwise good song drag.  Which is a shame.

6) Depth.  For me, this is the least "deep" DT album.  Everything to appreciate (or dislike) is at surface level.  None of the songs require any excavation for unnoticed nuances.  Which is good in some ways, admittedly; for example, I think it's a cool album to play when driving, in fact maybe the best DT album for that circumstance (except for perhaps Train of Thought).  But except for that, I don't think it compares at all to earlier albums such as I&W or Awake, or even more recent ones like SDOIT or even ADTOE.

[cyberdrummer]

2) Constant Motion.  While I admit to liking the instrumental section quite a bit, I find the rest of the song quite off-putting.  The music sounds like something from Load-era Metallica, and the lyrics sound amateurish.

Yeah, the Metallica influence in CM is something that puts me off a little too. But I wouldn't say it sounded like the Load-era. More a mixture of MoP and Black Album.

[BlobVanDam]

2) Constant Motion.  While I admit to liking the instrumental section quite a bit, I find the rest of the song quite off-putting.  The music sounds like something from Load-era Metallica, and the lyrics sound amateurish.

Yeah, the Metallica influence in CM is something that puts me off a little too. But I wouldn't say it sounded like the Load-era. More a mixture of MoP and Black Album.

I agree it sounds nothing like Load at all. wtf hef. I don't hear anything specifically Black Album in there from memory either. There are elements directly from MoP and KEA though, and it's definitely DT's most Metallica influenced song. I don't have any problem with the lyrics, and I love the song.

[Jarzombek]

Systematic Chaos is a good album, I really like it. The only bad song in this album is Prophets of War. I think it is the worst song in DT history.

[aprilethereal]

Systematic Chaos is a good album, I really like it. The only bad song in this album is Prophets of War. I think it is the worst song in DT history.

Nah, A Rite Of Passage and Misunderstood still exist.

[BlackInk]

Why is Systematic Chaos hated so much? v. Write your own novel

But seriously, I think the instrumental section of The Ministry of Lost Souls is pretty cool, and I absolutely love the transition from the second chorus and into that section.

And while I agree that Prophets of War isn't the best Dream Theater song ever, I am really surprised about how many people dislikes it so strongly. "Worst in DT history", stuff like that baffles me.

Edit: Also, the intro of TMoLS has always reminded me of The Lion King, so there's that.

[Joshin U]

Systematic Chaos is a good album, I really like it. The only bad song in this album is Prophets of War. I think it is the worst song in DT history.

Nah, A Rite Of Passage and Misunderstood still exist.

Whoa, Misunderstood worse than PoW? You must be joshing me...

[The Boomr]

Man, the TMOLS hate in here might just break my heart    It's absolutely one of my favorite DT songs, definitely in the top 10, possibly top 5, and definitely the best of the album for me. I do understand if people don't like it for the instrumental break not being similar at all, but for me that's one of the reasons it's even more fantastic. Literally every complaint about the song I've seen, I disagree with I love the length of the song: the beginning builds up perfectly to the instrumental, the instrumental is crazy and awesome, and the outro is f'ing BEAUTIFUL and genius with the way JP moves that solo line through the chords and modulates. I love the lyrics: honestly I don't see these as being fantasy lyrics. If I remember correctly, JP says on the making of DVD that it's about a girl who's drowning, and a guy saves her. I guess it's sort of magic-y in the way he saves her, but whatevs. I think JLB delivers them all amazingly well and it sounds heartfelt. I love the instrumental break being different from the rest of the song: I'm a huge fan of stark contrast in music, when done well, and for me, this is a perfect example, especially with such good metric modulations going into and out of the break.

Hmm...SC is not my absolute favorite DT album but it's up there. If I try to be objective, I would have to guess that I love it so much more than the average fan because it was the first full album I bought and listened to. I had been buying random single songs of iTunes for a while, and then when I was in a store I saw the special ed. of SC and was like OK LET'S DO THIS. Haha. I was basically blown away by it. I love all the instrumental sections, I love the fantasy lyrics, I love the vocals, I love most things about it. For me, there isn't a bad song on the album. Ok.....ahhhh I can't resist. I'm going to do a list.

ITPOE (both): Fantastic. Amazing start and finish to the album, and I've actually always loved how this is one of VERY few DT albums that gets right into the gritty, without building up slowly. Don't get me wrong, slow build ups are a great way to start something incredible, like The Glass Prison or As I Am, or any number of other songs. But once I had bought and listened to all the other albums, I appreciated that this one starts off immediately. I've also often wondered out of curiosity, what the transition between pt. 1 and pt. 2 would've sounded like if DT had decided to not split it up on the album. I think it's mostly perfect the way it is, but when they played both parts together live it seems like there should be more of a connecting fiber between the two. Love everything about the second part, and my favorite moment is at the reprise of the theme from part 1, when JR brings back that keyboard melody...then BAM, leaps up the octave ahhhh so good.

Forsaken: Yes, this is one of DT's poppy and more accessible songs, but I do enjoy it quite a bit. I love it not as much as I used to, lately, but still very good, one of the few vampire things I can tolerate in today's world

Constant Motion: Definitely their "Metallica song." But, that bothers me not in the slightest. Instrumental break in this one is pretty friggin awesome, especially when I realized that JM is doubling that crazy guitar line JP plays during the break (I think that's this song...). I understand people thinking the lyrics are cheesy/corny, but for me I never took notice of that until other people pointed it out to me, and it still doesn't bother me. I like me some stereotypical metal lyrics  The drumming throughout the entire song is really intense and fast...I've tried to learn it in the past and got too exhausted every time

TDEN: Yeessssss....Gotta love this. Love JR's ragtime piano bits, love the continuum improv over the outro, love the intense vocals...yup. Not much else to say. I mean, seriously, how can you hate on TDEN when there's this...https://youtu.be/RfAz35yhn7U

Repentance: Love it. I was disappointed originally that it wasn't another crazy awesome intense metal song for the AA suite, but I've come to loooove just about every part of this song. I can understand not liking the samples going on for so long; but the outro and everything else, I think it's perfect. I actually almost always forget this song is even as long as it is, it just flows really well, imo. It's actually pretty similar to the way low-key Opeth songs are, I think, in that it doesn't change the basic pattern or structure for the most part, but builds little subtle bits on top of that over time, and isn't afraid to repeat itself for as long as it needs to. I love that. There's actually a recording of Akerfeldt singing part of this song with DT live..... 

POW: Love it. The dancey-ness, the lyrics, it's all awesome for me. Playing drums along to this song was always super fun. Another accessible song, for the most part, and once again I'm ok with it. OH and I LOVE the Queen style vocals!! I don't get people not liking that...it's so cool!

This is very long now.... sorry guys! I felt the need to defend one of my original favorites.

[TL]

The disconnect between what people are saying in this thread is getting a bit irritating.

Person A: "TMOLS is a pretty good song, but the sections feel a bit disconnected".
Person B: "Man, why does everyone absolutely hate that song?"

Like, that seems to have been the pattern several times over so far. One person in the OP expressing a negative view, and then most other criticism being along the lines of "It's okay but not their best" does not add up to "Everyone hates the album and it is the worst thing ever".

[ariich]

Boomr, completely agree with you about TMOLS. Sure, the instrumental itself is very different to the early part of the song, but that doesn't make the song jarring at all, it builds up very naturally and transitions smoothly. And as has been said previously, one part sounding nothing like another part is very common in DT's music (and indeed in lots of music generally).

I also agree that the lyrics in that song aren't fantasy, they're fictional, but DT have done plenty of that over the years.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

The disconnect between what people are saying in this thread is getting a bit irritating.

Person A: "TMOLS is a pretty good song, but the sections feel a bit disconnected".
Person B: "Man, why does everyone absolutely hate that song?"

Like, that seems to have been the pattern several times over so far. One person in the OP expressing a negative view, and then most other criticism being along the lines of "It's okay but not their best" does not add up to "Everyone hates the album and it is the worst thing ever".

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Jaffa]

Boomr, completely agree with you about TMOLS. Sure, the instrumental itself is very different to the early part of the song, but that doesn't make the song jarring at all, it builds up very naturally and transitions smoothly.

Just to put it out there, the first time I listened to Systematic Chaos, I literally thought that 7:30-ish of TMOLS was the beginning of a new song.  So much so that when the TMOLS melody returned at around 10:40, I was honestly confused, because I really thought I'd been listening to a new song for the past three minutes or so.  I sincerely felt like I'd been taken in a totally new direction only to be taken abruptly back to where I started. 

I don't expect this to change anybody else's opinion, of course.  I just wanted to clarify my own opinion and experience.  I think I've done that as well as I can now, so, I'm done on the subject.  Probably. 

[TAC]

The verses, especially the first one, to Constant Motion reminds me of Anthrax's I Am The Law.

[TL]

The disconnect between what people are saying in this thread is getting a bit irritating.

Person A: "TMOLS is a pretty good song, but the sections feel a bit disconnected".
Person B: "Man, why does everyone absolutely hate that song?"

Like, that seems to have been the pattern several times over so far. One person in the OP expressing a negative view, and then most other criticism being along the lines of "It's okay but not their best" does not add up to "Everyone hates the album and it is the worst thing ever".

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But... but someone is wrong ON THE INTERNET!

[The Boomr]

The disconnect between what people are saying in this thread is getting a bit irritating.

Person A: "TMOLS is a pretty good song, but the sections feel a bit disconnected".
Person B: "Man, why does everyone absolutely hate that song?"

Like, that seems to have been the pattern several times over so far. One person in the OP expressing a negative view, and then most other criticism being along the lines of "It's okay but not their best" does not add up to "Everyone hates the album and it is the worst thing ever".

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But... but someone is wrong ON THE INTERNET!

Can someone tell me how to do the applauding hands emoticon so that I can use it to approve this post in a typical internet fashion? I don't see it anywhere in the smileys list.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Type "clap" with colons on either side.

Like this

[kirksnosehair]

I gave this album a spin today to see how it had aged.  I guess it feels about the same as it did a few years ago when it came out.  I like ITPOE quite a bit, but wish they hadn't split it into two pieces. I don't really care much at all for Forsaken or Constant Motion.  The Dark Eternal Night is OK. Repentance = zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, Prophets of War is.....meh.  The Ministry of Lost Souls is decent.


I remember thinking that my days of being a die-hard Dream Theater fan were perhaps coming to an end after I had been listening to this album for a couple of months.  I was very happy (musically at least) with BC&SL when it was released because I thought it was definitely a step in the right direction, with the exception of the now infamous "day after day, etc" Portnoy grunting.  And I thought ADTOE continued in a positive musical direction, but I am really concerned about the direction of the production.  Hopefully it will improve with the new album.


I still have to give SC a 3-star rating. 

[BlackInk]

For me, BC&SL was the lowest point in DT's career in many years and Systematic Chaos is something far better. But I agree that they improved with ADToE.

[The Boomr]

Type "clap" with colons on either side.

Like this

[Dublagent66]

SC ranks relatively low for me but I still like it.  The only low point I think is PoW.  It's not a terrible song but it's far from good IMO.  I tend to skip it.  Otherwise, it's a fairly decent album with a lot of good moments.

Fucking Ministry of Lost Fucking Souls. Put this song on an album with 11 other best DT songs and it makes for a shitty album. It's that bad. 

First of all, if you don't like TMoLS then fine.  Secondly, one bad song does not a shitty album make as I indicated above.  That said, I think for the most part, people like TMoLS, which puts you in the minority on that one anyway.

Uh yeah, in relation to the other songs on the album, it ranks fairly high.  So, I think that's a fair statement.  I didn't say everybody likes it.

2009 album results:

SYSTEMATIC CHAOS

1. In The Presence of Enemies
2. The Dark Eternal Night
3. The Ministry of Lost Souls
4. Constant Motion
5. Forsaken
6. Repentance
7. Prophets of War

2010 album results:

Systematic Chaos

1. In the Presence of Enemies
2. The Ministry of Lost Souls
3. The Dark Eternal Night
4. Constant Motion
5. Repentance
6. Forsaken
7. Prophets of War

[Zukuduku]

I must be in the minority here as I really like the album. I would rank it around the middle of DT's albums. When the album was released, I was very happy to see DT return to a little bit heavier and more relaxed sound after Octavarium. On the negative side, this album was the first for me when I started to get a little annoyed by MP's lyrics. I wasn't the biggest fan of HTF or Never Enough, but for some reason CM was the first when it started to be too much for me.

One schizoprenic song in the album is POW. It is musically great and fun song and I really like to listen to the instrumental version. But the lyrics. They don't fit to the mood of the song at all! With some different style of lyrics the song could have been better. Actually I was so disappointed with the lyrics that when BCSL was released, I was relieved to see that JLB did not write any lyrics on that album. On the other hand, the lyrics could have worked much better in a song with different style, something like Sacrified Sons or so.

Chord progressions on the album are one of the best of DT's discography. I still get goose bumps when listening to TMOLS. Very powerful and tasteful chords. I also absolutely love the lyrics of TMOLS. Quite Kevin Moorish in a sense that they seem to be about some simple story (a drowning man) but actually can be interpreted to have a deeper meaning as well. Which is what JP used to be really good at during Awake days.

So overall a very good album with great compositions, only the producer of the album could have worked a bit harder to really get the best out of the strong material.

[Lowdz]

I don't hate it but it is my least favourite DT album. The reason? Poor songs and the run of  CM (poor Metallica impression), TDEN (yuk), Redemption (zzzzz), PoW (ok...) kill it.

Love Forsaken and TMoLS, which are generally not liked, so what do I know?

[Ruba]

Really, I don't find the outro of Repentance overlong the slightest. It kinda reminds me of Promised Land by Queensrÿche, same pattern is being played for minutes, but I'm not getting bored with neither song. I love the use of samples and the chord progression is intriguing and beautiful.

Systematic Chaos is a good album, I really like it. The only bad song in this album is Prophets of War. I think it is the worst song in DT history.

Nah, A Rite Of Passage and Misunderstood still exist.

Whoa, Misunderstood worse than PoW? You must be joshing me...

It is. On my top 50, Misunderstood was 23rd and POW 16th. 

[Whatsername]

Love Forsaken and TMoLS, which are generally not liked, so what do I know?

[aprilethereal]

Systematic Chaos is a good album, I really like it. The only bad song in this album is Prophets of War. I think it is the worst song in DT history.

Nah, A Rite Of Passage and Misunderstood still exist.

Whoa, Misunderstood worse than PoW? You must be joshing me...

POW is pretty weak for DT standards, but Misunderstood is unlistenable for me.

[dragonmaster715]

systematic chaos is my second favorite album also. i love the ministry of lost souls and in the presence of enemies, i would even go as far as to put both in my top 10. the only song off sc i dont really like is repentance, its not that its a bad song or anything, just repetetive

[TL]

While SC is one of my less listened to DT albums, it will always hold a special place for me. It was the first album where I was a fan for the entire leadup to it. Technically I started listening to them shortly before Octavarium came out (and while L:SFAM was my introduction, Octavarium was the first DT album I actually bought, and for my friends and I basically because the album of that summer), but by the time I became aware of Octavarium, it had just been released. SC was also released when I was going through some stuff (petty highschool stuff that seems really insignificant in retrospect, but still), and it came out at just about the perfect time for me relative to that.

Overall, I like SC. I just like most of DT's other albums more.

[Ytsejammin]

I don't hate it at all. I fact I just went on a SC binge a few weeks back a must have listened to the thing 3 times. Plus boots from the era and watched CiM. It's a very satisfying listen.

[Evatallica]

2nd least favorite DT album, I think it's somewhat better than BC&SL. My favorite songs are the ITPOE (As a whole), Forsaken, and TDEN. ITPOE is possibly my least favorite DT epic but I still think it's great, I'm a sucker for tragic romance and melodic keyboards so I love Forsaken, and TDEN is far too much fun to hate. 

CM is alright but it bores me a lot. Repentance is good but it drags on and on. PoW is IMO a terrible DT song. And the production of the album really kills TMoLS for me. It's just a flawed DT album to me basically.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

One day I will meet someone else who likes Prophets Of War.

It shall be a glorious day.

[JayOctavarium]

One day I will meet someone else who likes Prophets Of War.

It shall be a glorious day.

hi

[theseoafs]

Prophets of War is fantastic.  Hands-down the best song on SC.

[Jaffa]

I wouldn't go quite as far as theseoafs, but I do think PoW is a great song.

[TheGreatPretender]

Prophets of War is fantastic.  Hands-down the best song on SC.

You're just screwing with us, aren't you?

[TL]

One day I will meet someone else who likes Prophets Of War.

It shall be a glorious day.

It was a good live song when I saw them back in 2009 in Montreal.