Dream Theater has 2 original members: Does this make them lose credibility?

[robwebster]

Well, on another forum, they won't even call DT "DT" anymore because MP isn't in the band.

I'm tempted to ask which one! I've seen none of that, but I'll admit that I don't spend much time looking in other places.

Obviously, the line changes from person to person, and from where they're stood that must seem like a perfectly rational judgment, but... it's 80% of the band that wrote the entire 12-Step Suite, for instance. Was that "only barely Dream Theater," or do they think Mike Portnoy was that vital to the essence of it? I can understand arguing that it's not the same Dream Theater they loved - everyone has phases like that - but I think, if someone's at the point where they're arguing Mike Portnoy was the only vessel for DT-ness, I'd argue that's possibly a slightly warped worldview.

Which is lovely! Loyalty's good, nice to be loyal, definitely call that loyal. But I wouldn't be as quick to call it rational.

[gmillerdrake]

When the story is told....like they did on the 'Score' DVD....JP and JMX took off for Berkely and 'found' MP playing in a room, approached him and from there they began to jam and then go on to form Majesty and so on. So IMO the 'original' members are and always have been and always will be JP and JMX because that's how the story began.

[LCArenas]

I think it's not about having the original band, it's keeping the distinctive sound. Most of the Key members of DT are still in the band. I consider JLB to be one of them, more so than Charlie Dominici was when he was in the band. The Keyboards have changed, but Kevin left early and JR has been an amazing input to the band (Not to discredit KM since I like him as well). That leaves us with the Drums, the Bass and the Guitar. MP was indeed a key member of Dream Theater and IMO the only key member that has left throughout the years (But then there's all the musical direction he was trying to get DT into, and MM is doing an amazing job nowadays in the band).

tl;dr It's the DT sound that matters. And since it's still there I don't think there's a loss of credibility. Heck I think there would be less if Chris Collins was still in the band

[Prog Snob]

With all due respect, this is such a ridiculous notion. 

[SystematicThought]

Well, on another forum, they won't even call DT "DT" anymore because MP isn't in the band.

Oh yeah, I saw that. 

[Madman Shepherd]

With all due respect, this is such a ridiculous notion.

This directed at me?  Did you read any of my posts?

I'm in agreement with the general consensus.
Musical credibility has little to do with how many original members you have.

I didn't intend for this to be necessarily about musical credibility, but just credibility in general about still using the name, etc.

It still just dumbfounds me how people will write off a band just because they are not how the individual personally desires to see them.  If it is a genuine distaste in the music then sure, no one could argue that one has the right to feel that way.  I just feel the general public is far more snobby when it comes to music....which is ironic coming from a forum filled with music "snobs" 

[Prog Snob]

With all due respect, this is such a ridiculous notion.

This directed at me?  Did you read any of my posts?

My comment was directed at the topic in general.  It makes me wonder what caliber person contemplates such notions. In the end, does it really matter how many original members are still remaining in any band or does the music matter? 

[TheSilentHam]

If ALL of the original members were still in the band, I think it is likely that we wouldn't have eleven albums and probably would not have DTF.  I think it enhances the credibility of the band that even those former members we "love" left when they were not "feeling it", instead just rolling with the gig.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm in agreement with the general consensus.
Musical credibility has little to do with how many original members you have.

I didn't intend for this to be necessarily about musical credibility, but just credibility in general about still using the name, etc.

It still just dumbfounds me how people will write off a band just because they are not how the individual personally desires to see them.  If it is a genuine distaste in the music then sure, no one could argue that one has the right to feel that way.  I just feel the general public is far more snobby when it comes to music....which is ironic coming from a forum filled with music "snobs" 

I do favour bands that have stable line-ups, because I like to know there's some consistency in sound, so I can appreciate where the idea comes from in theory, but I also love a lot of albums from bands who aren't in what would be considered a "classic" line-up by any stretch, so I've never understood people being "snobs" about a lineup solely from whether or not it's the line-up that recorded the more popular albums.
Line-ups become classic by proving themselves with the music, so I'll always give the music a chance. Snobbery as a music listener gains you nothing.

[gmillerdrake]

It makes me wonder what caliber person contemplates such notions.

Let me clarify then....I'm predominately a .45 cal person with the occasional .50 cal black powder.

[Lolzeez]

When the story is told....like they did on the 'Score' DVD....JP and JMX took off for Berkely and 'found' MP playing in a room, approached him and from there they began to jam and then go on to form Majesty and so on. So IMO the 'original' members are and always have been and always will be JP and JMX because that's how the story began.

Winner.

[Prog Snob]

It makes me wonder what caliber person contemplates such notions.

Let me clarify then....I'm predominately a .45 cal person with the occasional .50 cal black powder.

Wonderful.   

[The Letter M]

When the story is told....like they did on the 'Score' DVD....JP and JMX took off for Berkely and 'found' MP playing in a room, approached him and from there they began to jam and then go on to form Majesty and so on. So IMO the 'original' members are and always have been and always will be JP and JMX because that's how the story began.

Winner.

Aww, he's a winner for mentioning that but I'm not? 

They may not be Rush, but they're certainly doing a LOT better than Yes, which only currently has ONE original member in Chris Squire, who has been on every Yes album. And speaking of Rush, while Neil Peart has written nearly ALL of the band's lyrics since his joining, he wasn't an original member, but people don't think of John Rutsey as the heart of Rush when he was the original drummer.

Petrucci has always been the fore-runner of the band, anyway, from a musical and lyrical point of view. While Portnoy was the face and heart of the band, I'd consider Petrucci to be the body and soul. He's had his hand most in the music and lyrics since the beginning, and you have to remember, while Mike, John and John were the original trio in Majesty, it was the Johns who found Mike together in the practice rooms at Berklee. The Johns were childhood friends and had only met Mike in college, so as far as I am concerned, Dream Theater is, without a doubt, Myung and Petrucci. Mike came along and gave them spirit, but we all know the spirit carries on, but the band still exists solely because of the Johns, and even though it was Mike's baby, he was only the father, Petrucci was definitely the mother.

-Marc.

Also - Berklee was the college they went to. Berkely looks like one of those modern Millenial-girl's names that snobby rich parents give their daughters. Or a dog's name. Either or...

(No offense to anyone actually named Berkely. Especially dogs)

-Marc.

[gmillerdrake]

When the story is told....like they did on the 'Score' DVD....JP and JMX took off for Berkely and 'found' MP playing in a room, approached him and from there they began to jam and then go on to form Majesty and so on. So IMO the 'original' members are and always have been and always will be JP and JMX because that's how the story began.

Winner.

Aww, he's a winner for mentioning that but I'm not? 

The curse of the first page post strikes again....I didn't even see that or I would have quoted you. Oh well, I have to wake my wife up and tell her we need to re-name our daughter........

[Kotowboy]

Well, on another forum, they won't even call DT "DT" anymore because MP isn't in the band.

Mike Portnoy's forum ?

[nikatapi]

I don't think they lose credibility by having only 2 original members. It might seem strange to someone who really loves MP's input and his image as a band leader, but i think credibility is lost when a band puts out bad albums. And to be honest, to me there is more credibility now that all the members seem so excited about DT and their future with MM (and MM's devotion is very honest and hopeful for the future of the band).

During the last years with MP, some of the friction became a little obvious, and he seemed tired and bored in many of the interviews, there was no excitement, just the same "we'll do what we always do, go into a studio, record and tour".

So it seems great when a band stays together as they were when they formed the band, but the products of their work are a better way to establish credibility, if they put out crappy records then all credibility is lost, no matter how many original members are left.

[CodyWanKenobi]

If DT released an album about flatulence, I would absolutely buy it.

[BlobVanDam]

If DT released an album about flatulence, I would absolutely buy it.

6 Degrees of Inner Flatulence?

[Zydar]

If DT released an album about flatulence, I would absolutely buy it.

6 Degrees of Inner Flatulence?

Just let me breathe.

[commanderbob]

They will still have "credibility" as DT as long as they have the 2 people that make the utterly, uniquely DT: James(voice) and JP(guitar style and vision). Even if they lost JM(yikes!) they could still (barely!) be DT, but without either of those 2 they could still be great, but they wouldn't be DT any more.

[philmcson]

They will still have "credibility" as DT as long as they have the 2 people that make the utterly, uniquely DT: James(voice) and JP(guitar style and vision). Even if they lost JM(yikes!) they could still (barely!) be DT, but without either of those 2 they could still be great, but they wouldn't be DT any more.

The antisocial factor of DT would suddenly disappear, though...... 

[emtee]

I don't think loss of credibility will ever be an issue with DT.

The potential issue the band faces moving forward is popularity and if they can continue to put enough butts in the seats.
This is an important year for them in many ways.

[snapple]

Well, on another forum, they won't even call DT "DT" anymore because MP isn't in the band.

Oh yeah, I saw that. 

And then they go on about Thiago's shit, too.

[Perpetual Change]

Wait, that really happened?

[snapple]

Wait, that really happened?

Different forum. But the fanboyism there is amazing.

[Jaq]

Well, on another forum, they won't even call DT "DT" anymore because MP isn't in the band.

That's not a comment on the credibility of DT. That's a comment on sheer idiocy.

4/5ths of the current line up has been together for 15 years. Go look at a band like Iced Earth over the last 15 years and see how many members they've had. Dream Theater in comparison to Iced Earth is a solid rock of consistency. They've had one change at the vocalist position, one change at drummer, and two at keyboards. That's a two year frequency of line up changes for IE. 

And Iced Earth, despite only having one founding member left, is still legitimately Iced Earth. We're not talking about a band like Molly Hatchet, where all the founding members left and the name was carried on by a keyboardist that showed up late in the existence of the original line up here, after all.

[Marion Crane]

Metallica has been operating with only 2 original members since 1986

[bosk1]

When the story is told....like they did on the 'Score' DVD....JP and JMX took off for Berkely and 'found' MP playing in a room, approached him and from there they began to jam and then go on to form Majesty and so on. So IMO the 'original' members are and always have been and always will be JP and JMX because that's how the story began.

I get what you are saying, and granted, there is a bit of subjectivity to it, so there is room for interpretation.  But IMO, when it was just JP and JMX, they weren't a "band" at all.  They were just two buddies jamming music.  Even when they brought Mike onboard, I wouldn't really consider them a complete "band" at that point.  I would consider all three of them to be the three founding members of the band.  But in terms of the complete cast of original members, I personally think you also have to include Kevin and either Chris or Charlie.  They knew that as a band, they needed a keyboard player and a singer rather than just being an instrumental band, so the "band" they contemplated putting together wasn't complete until they filled those roles.  IMO, Chris counts as the "original" singer, although I think it's perfectly valid to argue that he was more or less a placeholder until they found Charlie, and that Charlie, not Chris, should be considered the "original singer."  Either way.  (although, for what it's worth, I think if you asked JP, JMX, or MP who they considered their original singer to be, I think they'd all say Chris)  And to me, it also doesn't really matter that they were Majesty back then, because the change to Dream Theater was a change in name only.  It was entirely 100% the same band when the change was made.

[bosk1]

Metallica has been operating with only 2 original members since 1986

Yup.  (although Kirk has been with them so long and from so relatively early on, he is practically considered an original member--kinda like JLB to DT)

Then you also have Megadeth for awhile having only 1 original member during the time Jr. was out of the band.  I don't think many fans were feeling like it wasn't really Megadeth even when Mustaine was the only original member, but Megadeth having only one original member without fans questioning the legitimacy of continuing with the band name is, IMO, the exception rather than the rule.  I know it's already been mentioned in the thread, but a lot of people think it's really dumb for Axl to be able to call his band Guns N Roses.  And while it's fine for Mick Jones' band to play Foreigner songs to their heart's content, a lot of people (myself included) don't really feel like they're hearing "Foreigner" when they hear his band. 

[wasteland]

They will still have "credibility" as DT as long as they have the 2 people that make the utterly, uniquely DT: James(voice) and JP(guitar style and vision). Even if they lost JM(yikes!) they could still (barely!) be DT, but without either of those 2 they could still be great, but they wouldn't be DT any more.

I am on the same page, though I am willing to go even further and include Jordan in the group of people who make the juice of what DT is. He rooted himself in the band and in the creative process that I think he could hardly be eradicated without dealing a near deathly blow to the band.

[snapple]

I think it would be very hard for Dave to get replaced in Megadeth and it still be called Megadeth.

[bosk1]

It's hard to imagine the band without Jordan, and I think bringing in a new keyboard player would ber a major change of direction, but I agree that it would still be basically DT with Petrucci and LaBrie.  But remove either of those two, and I would begin to feel like it really isn't the same band anymore.  But it's hard to say unless and until it actually happens. 

To use another band as an example, Journey is an interesting one.  Technically, their "classic lineup" of Schon, Valory, Perry, Cain, and Smith (and I know some would debate whether that lineup is truly their "classic lineup," but just go with me on this) featured only two original members:  Schon and Valory.  Yet, that lineup forged the sound of the band that the vast majority of fans are really familiar with and associate with truly being "Journey."  When they eventually had to replace Perry, even with founding members Schon and Valory, and with Cain as someone who had become such a big part of their signature sound, having a different singer and, to a much lesser degree, a different drummer made the band feel like something other than Journey.  I know for me, I feel into the same category.  Yeah, they could call themselves Journey, and I wouldn't really dispute that, but I just had no interest in hearing them with a different singer and different drummer performing Journey songs.  It just didn't make sense to me.  But Augeri eventually won me over (as he did a lot of fans), and rather than taking on the role of just a "cover" singer, he really lent an air of legitimacy and credibility to the band that the fans bought into, which has enabled them to continue on with a completely different singer now.  I dunno.  It's such a subjective thing.  I don't think anyone could have forseen them having success as "Journey" with anyone other than Perry on vocals.  Yet, they continue to sell albums and pack good-sized venues now that fans have gotten used to the idea.

[CrimsonSunrise]

I count the first album as a mulligan.  After that, the sound that makes me think "DT" is JP and JLB.  Therefore  all credibility or structural integrity is intact from my perspective.  Now, if JR or MM  didn't musically live up to those that came before, we might have an issue.  That problem does not exist though IMHO.

[Aythesryche]

In the end, for me at least, it's all about the music. When I listen to new music for the first time, I don't give a damn who is involved or why or how, etc. I put my headphones on and simply get lost in the music. If its good music and it moves me, then I'll accept it whole heartedly. I'm not going to be so narrow minded and cheat myself out of hearing something good just because I'm not happy about someone not being in the band, or that I'm angry about something that was said by members for former members. That baggage doesn't belong when it comes to the true nature of how music should be accepted for me.

Even after I decide I like the music and after a few dozen spins, I may go online and read some info about the band members and people's opinions about all the behind the scenes stuff. Regardless of whether they like or dislike the music or the bands situation, I always retain my attitude and feeling about the music I've had before reading about someone else's opinion.

My point in stating all this is that I think the issue of "credibility" is solely in the minds of a handful of people that find it important for a band to retain all the members they have come to like over the years. And a change of members would cause people to have different preconceptions about the music.

DT is like food. Lets say you have an omelet. The basis of an omelet is fried beat eggs, but since its such a versatile food, you can pretty much stuff it with anything you want. Eggs, steak, ham, cheese, bacon, zucchini, crab, etc. just because you've come to love the ham, cheese and green pepper omlete for most of your life doesn't make the ham, cheese and bacon omlete an outcast that should be rejected or lose any credibility in being called an omlete. Just like DT is still and shall always be DT because they never have lost their key ingredients that defines their music as DT music.

DT with Mike Mangini and Jordan rudess are just as much DT as they were before those two joined the band. No credibility was lost.

[Lolzeez]

Btw keep in mind. Throughout the history of King Crimson,only Robert Fripp was in every album. 








Ok this had to be done.

Robert Fripp

Attacks include:Chair,keyboards,Ninja Stars

VS

John "Beartrucci" Petrucci

Attacks include:Raw Dog,Nodding head while showing your teeth,orgy while playing guitar