Dream Theater has 2 original members: Does this make them lose credibility?

[Madman Shepherd]

4/5ths of the current line up has been together for 15 years. Go look at a band like Iced Earth over the last 15 years and see how many members they've had. Dream Theater in comparison to Iced Earth is a solid rock of consistency. They've had one change at the vocalist position, one change at drummer, and two at keyboards. That's a two year frequency of line up changes for IE. 

And Iced Earth, despite only having one founding member left, is still legitimately Iced Earth. We're not talking about a band like Molly Hatchet, where all the founding members left and the name was carried on by a keyboardist that showed up late in the existence of the original line up here, after all.

As defensive as I am with band's that have one original member, I draw the line at Iced Earth.  I got into them around the time of Horror Show so I was familiar with Barlow as a vocalist.  Even though Jon was the only original member at that point, Barlow was a consistent member and by many considered the definitive vocalist. 

I loved Ripper so even though I was sad when Barlow left, I was pumped for Ripper who just lost the Priest spot.  The rest of the band kept revolving and Jon was saying all this stuff about how Ripper is the perfect vocalist for Iced Earth and this and that and that Barlow was never a writer so he is psyched to write with Ripper.  Then Ripper wasn't given an opportunity to write and Barlow came back and Jon went back and most of what he said.  The band was now essentially part time and they would do a few short tours every year.  OK, I can get behind that.  Then it turned into something more and Barlow dropped out again.  I just gave up at that point.  Of course, it doesn't help my commitment that I thought the Something Wicked albums were weak.

My point being, I have no problem with Sabbath, Heep, DT, Purple, etc but I have to draw the line at Iced Earth

[Madman Shepherd]

Then you also have Megadeth for awhile having only 1 original member during the time Jr. was out of the band.  I don't think many fans were feeling like it wasn't really Megadeth even when Mustaine was the only original member, but Megadeth having only one original member without fans questioning the legitimacy of continuing with the band name is, IMO, the exception rather than the rule. 

I know a lot of people that didn't consider Megadeth credible during that period.  It doesn't help that Dave said he was going to do a solo album, recorded it, and then just decided to release it as Megadeth.  Thus, we have The System Has Failed

[Jaq]

4/5ths of the current line up has been together for 15 years. Go look at a band like Iced Earth over the last 15 years and see how many members they've had. Dream Theater in comparison to Iced Earth is a solid rock of consistency. They've had one change at the vocalist position, one change at drummer, and two at keyboards. That's a two year frequency of line up changes for IE. 

And Iced Earth, despite only having one founding member left, is still legitimately Iced Earth. We're not talking about a band like Molly Hatchet, where all the founding members left and the name was carried on by a keyboardist that showed up late in the existence of the original line up here, after all.

As defensive as I am with band's that have one original member, I draw the line at Iced Earth.  I got into them around the time of Horror Show so I was familiar with Barlow as a vocalist.  Even though Jon was the only original member at that point, Barlow was a consistent member and by many considered the definitive vocalist. 

I loved Ripper so even though I was sad when Barlow left, I was pumped for Ripper who just lost the Priest spot.  The rest of the band kept revolving and Jon was saying all this stuff about how Ripper is the perfect vocalist for Iced Earth and this and that and that Barlow was never a writer so he is psyched to write with Ripper.  Then Ripper wasn't given an opportunity to write and Barlow came back and Jon went back and most of what he said.  The band was now essentially part time and they would do a few short tours every year.  OK, I can get behind that.  Then it turned into something more and Barlow dropped out again.  I just gave up at that point.  Of course, it doesn't help my commitment that I thought the Something Wicked albums were weak.

My point being, I have no problem with Sabbath, Heep, DT, Purple, etc but I have to draw the line at Iced Earth

I see Iced Earth as being IE for the simple reason that Jon Schaffer has always been the primary songwriter for the band. Same thing with Dave Mustaine and Megadeth. Both bands, for better or worse, would make largely the same albums regardless of the line up, since Schaffer and Mustaine are the songwriters.

[jcmoorehead]

I always think the thing with band members leaving and the idea of credibility is more then just original members and more to do with things like the circumstances of a member leaving and perhaps even the output. If you look at Dream Theater and Portnoy leaving yes there was drama at times but for the most part all the details were kept behind closed doors and there was no sense of arguing back and forth, no attacks from one member to another and both parties moved forward in their own way which I think allowed the band to retain credibility and the output from it ADTOE showed that the band hadn't really suffered.

Yet you think about a band like Guns N Roses, the blow up from that was very dramatic. Members were sacked, brought in, sacked, brought in, left again and whatever then of course you have Axl, a guy who had tantrums on stage, turned up late and just seemed like a general all around prick. I know the guitar work of Slash is what most people think of first when it comes to the band but I would probably say Axl is the second thing people think of, losing that one core sound could have been dealt with but the drama and controversy surrounding it is what I think lost the Guns N Roses name and Axl the credibility. I'll be honest with you I loved Chinese Democracy but the damage had been done significantly by the time that album came out.

My point at the end of it is that it's down to circumstance, sure you'll have a few naysayers who believe the band isn't Dream Theater anymore because Portnoy left but then again aren't there a few out there who believe the band stopped being good when Kevin Moore left?

[snapple]

No drama? Except for the stuff MP did...

[Sketchy]

My point at the end of it is that it's down to circumstance, sure you'll have a few naysayers who believe the band isn't Dream Theater anymore because Portnoy left but then again aren't there a few out there who believe the band stopped being good when Kevin Moore left?

Wait? There's a band called Dream Theater that existed after Kevin Moore left? 

[?]

My point at the end of it is that it's down to circumstance, sure you'll have a few naysayers who believe the band isn't Dream Theater anymore because Portnoy left but then again aren't there a few out there who believe the band stopped being good when Kevin Moore left?

Wait? There's a band called Dream Theater that existed after Charlie Dominici left? 

[TheGreatPretender]

The sheer fact that after getting Jordan Rudess, they managed to keep the same line up for over 10 years is a lot more than the majority of Metal Bands out there could say.

[Sketchy]

Ditto that and I'd add "many prog bands" to that too.

[Mindflux]

The sheer fact that after getting Jordan Rudess, they managed to keep the same line up for over 10 years is a lot more than the majority of Metal Bands out there could say.

Well no other band can say that, because there's only one Jordan Rudess.

[wolven74]

I'm not sure how we're having a discussion that includes DT, Iced Earth and Megadeth all in the same breath. To me, of all three of these....DT is the ONLY band with ANY credibility left. Iced Earth was good up through Horror Show, which I would say is their benchmark album, as everything after Horror Show sounded almost exactly like Horror Show, but not as good. Very cookie cutter. Probably because Schaffer was the sole songwriter/control freak. His music, his way.

Same thing goes with Megadeth to a somewhat lesser degree. I always thought Megadeth lost their edge after Countdown to Extinction. I don't think Megadeth's problems lie with the lineup changes, or the fact that Mustaine is a bit of a control freak himself. Mustaine for a while was Megadeth, true, but the fault with them and the biggest difference outside of music between Megadeth and DT is that, from the beginning Megadeth was more of a personal revenge tool for Mustaine against Metallica. The problem with Megadeth is they always wanted to sound like another band, always wanted to one-up a more popular band. Had nothing to do with line-up, but almost everything to do with one man's jealousy.

DT has the most integrity and credibility and the least in common with either of these two because, no matter the lineup changes, each album is an improvement over the last. A part of that is because the creative and personal chemistry has consistently been tweaked, improved upon, and most importantly, nourished with each change. I've always seen DT as more a family than a band. That's the feeling I get when I see all the BTS footage. Whereas with Iced Earth and Megadeth, the relationships (for the most part) are business relationships of boss/chief songwriter with musician minions to do his bidding.

[snapple]

I'm not sure how we're having a discussion that includes DT, Iced Earth and Megadeth all in the same breath. To me, of all three of these....DT is the ONLY band with ANY credibility left. Iced Earth was good up through Horror Show, which I would say is their benchmark album, as everything after Horror Show sounded almost exactly like Horror Show, but not as good. Very cookie cutter. Probably because Schaffer was the sole songwriter/control freak. His music, his way.

Same thing goes with Megadeth to a somewhat lesser degree. I always thought Megadeth lost their edge after Countdown to Extinction. I don't think Megadeth's problems lie with the lineup changes, or the fact that Mustaine is a bit of a control freak himself. Mustaine for a while was Megadeth, true, but the fault with them and the biggest difference outside of music between Megadeth and DT is that, from the beginning Megadeth was more of a personal revenge tool for Mustaine against Metallica. The problem with Megadeth is they always wanted to sound like another band, always wanted to one-up a more popular band. Had nothing to do with line-up, but almost everything to do with one man's jealousy.

DT has the most integrity and credibility and the least in common with either of these two because, no matter the lineup changes, each album is an improvement over the last. A part of that is because the creative and personal chemistry has consistently been tweaked, improved upon, and most importantly, nourished with each change. I've always seen DT as more a family than a band. That's the feeling I get when I see all the BTS footage. Whereas with Iced Earth and Megadeth, the relationships (for the most part) are business relationships of boss/chief songwriter with musician minions to do his bidding.

Megadeth sounds nothing like Metallica.

[Scorpion]

Exactly, they wipe the floor with Metallica, easily. Over the years, I've been enjoying Megadeth more and more and Metallica less and less.

I, however, understand the point that wolven was trying to make, but I think that with RiP at the latest, Megadeth really established themselves, and I don't really think of them as a "revenge" tool anymore, and I doubt that they do so as well.

wolven is right in the regard that Megadeth are "The Dave Mustaine Show", something that DT never was, so they are different cups of tea. Does that make Megadeth less credible than DT?

I don't know, and frankly, I don't really care - I like DT and Megadeth because they still make good music. Iced Earth don't, but that wouldn't change, even if the line-up of Iced Earth was still Schaffer/Barlow/Tarnowski/the drummer whose name I forgot.

[Setlist Scotty]

Well, on another forum, they won't even call DT "DT" anymore because MP isn't in the band.

Ah yes - because a few people make the statement that it's not DT without MP on that forum, then that means in general the whole forum agrees with that sentiment. Funny because there seems to be a lot of discussion on that forum with quite a few positive and hopeful things said in favor of DT. If you don't like that other forum which is clearly evident by the crap you spew over here, fine, but don't make that entire forum/group of people out to be fanboys when they aren't. 

 

I don't think they lose credibility by having only 2 original members. It might seem strange to someone who really loves MP's input and his image as a band leader, but i think credibility is lost when a band puts out bad albums.

Agreed. I think the only thing that might be more questionable might be if the band members who left were the only ones who wrote the music, and the ones remaining did not. Kinda like what's going on with Queensryche, altho it appears that the 3 remaining guys in that band were not allowed to submit music for QR's last several albums as Tater took complete control of the band. But I digress...
 

If DT released an album about flatulence, I would absolutely buy it.

6 Degrees of Inner Flatulence?

Just let me breathe.

LOL! Well played.

IMO when it was just JP and JMX, they weren't a "band" at all.  They were just two buddies jamming music.  Even when they brought Mike onboard, I wouldn't really consider them a complete "band" at that point.  I would consider all three of them to be the three founding members of the band.  But in terms of the complete cast of original members, I personally think you also have to include Kevin and either Chris or Charlie.  They knew that as a band, they needed a keyboard player and a singer rather than just being an instrumental band, so the "band" they contemplated putting together wasn't complete until they filled those roles.  IMO, Chris counts as the "original" singer, although I think it's perfectly valid to argue that he was more or less a placeholder until they found Charlie, and that Charlie, not Chris, should be considered the "original singer."

I fully agree with this, except for perhaps the comment about Chris merely being a placeholder. When he first joined the band, I don't think the guys chose Chris to be a placeholder, but after some time and noticing his limitations, they got rid of him; the same exact thing could be said about Charlie.

It's hard to imagine the band without Jordan, and I think bringing in a new keyboard player would ber a major change of direction, but I agree that it would still be basically DT with Petrucci and LaBrie.  But remove either of those two, and I would begin to feel like it really isn't the same band anymore.  But it's hard to say unless and until it actually happens. 

True, but the same thing could have been said before MP left as well. I mean, who on earth ever imagined that MP would leave in the first place, and what would the band be like without him? So I'd wager that if JL or JM left, it would probably be the same thing. JP leaving may be a bit more of a wild card, but still possible, depending on who they could end up replacing him with.

[MoraWintersoul]

True, but the same thing could have been said before MP left as well. I mean, who on earth ever imagined that MP would leave in the first place, and what would the band be like without him? So I'd wager that if JL or JM left, it would probably be the same thing. JP leaving may be a bit more of a wild card, but still possible, depending on who they could end up replacing him with.

That is very true. The only people that can't be replaced in a band are the main songwriters (and sometimes they do get replaced, but I just can't imagine DT changing their essence like that); in that sense I'd argue that JP is the only one who couldn't possibly be replaced. Although, imagining DT without JR or JMX or JLB really gives me shivers. I just can't wrap my mind around that.

I'm sure in the end we'd move on, if they found an apt replacement, as it happened two years ago. Even though I'd be heartwrenched, I'd absolutely support them if any of the current members left and they wanted to continue with the band. But they could have just as easily dropped the ball in 2010/11. They had a lot of fields to cover and they gave their 100%, even though some things were gone with MP, they made sure, and are still making sure, to make up for it.

[Perpetual Change]

True, but the same thing could have been said before MP left as well. I mean, who on earth ever imagined that MP would leave in the first place, and what would the band be like without him? So I'd wager that if JL or JM left, it would probably be the same thing. JP leaving may be a bit more of a wild card, but still possible, depending on who they could end up replacing him with.

Concur, but dissenting in part.

Drummers are the most expendable members of any band. MP did lots of other valuable stuff that made him more than the average drummer, but if you gave someone a copy of ADTOE to listen to and told them it was MP on drums, they would be none the wiser.  I would say that bass comes after drums, and then finally keyboards, guitars, and vocals.

[KevShmev]

Drummers are the most expendable members of any band. MP did lots of other valuable stuff that made him more than the average drummer, but if you gave someone a copy of ADTOE to listen to and told them it was MP on drums, they would be none the wiser.  I would say that bass comes after drums, and then finally keyboards, guitars, and vocals.

That's true.  A friend of friend (who's been listening to the band almost as long we have been, nearly 20 years now) commented to the both of us a while back that he liked ADOTE a lot, but was puzzled as to why the drums weren't as in-your-face as normal, and when we told him that it was a new drummer, he was like, "Oh, I couldn't even tell."

[The Letter M]

True, but the same thing could have been said before MP left as well. I mean, who on earth ever imagined that MP would leave in the first place, and what would the band be like without him? So I'd wager that if JL or JM left, it would probably be the same thing. JP leaving may be a bit more of a wild card, but still possible, depending on who they could end up replacing him with.

Concur, but dissenting in part.

Drummers are the most expendable members of any band. MP did lots of other valuable stuff that made him more than the average drummer, but if you gave someone a copy of ADTOE to listen to and told them it was MP on drums, they would be none the wiser.  I would say that bass comes after drums, and then finally keyboards, guitars, and vocals.

Normally, I'd agree, but Mike Portnoy is a bit of an exception. Had he quite after Awake or Falling Into Infinity, I'd say you're right. But Mike's involvement in the band's writing, recording, and touring processes, as well as providing back-up vocals on MANY songs, cemented his place as an important and vital member of Dream Theater. He wasn't "just the drummer".

Sure, he didn't reach Phil Collins/Nick D'Virgilio status by being a lead singer, and even when THOSE drummers left their bands, they continued without them (though in the case of Genesis, it wasn't a very successful continuation; SB is still TBD).

I think, however, with Mike, because he admits that he doesn't practice, and his playing is very usual (meaning, he plays with the same box-of-tools-and-tricks) and expected, his performance from record to record was same-y. Couple that with the fact that JP and the rest of the band know what kind of drummer they want on their music, they were able to direct MM's drum parts with that "expected" sound.

I'd wait until DT12 is out to see whether or not having MM in the studio as the new drummer really affects or changes their over-all sound, which I think it might (even just a little bit).

-Marc.

[Mindflux]

Drummers are the most expendable members of any band. MP did lots of other valuable stuff that made him more than the average drummer, but if you gave someone a copy of ADTOE to listen to and told them it was MP on drums, they would be none the wiser.  I would say that bass comes after drums, and then finally keyboards, guitars, and vocals.

That's true.  A friend of friend (who's been listening to the band almost as long we have been, nearly 20 years now) commented to the both of us a while back that he liked ADOTE a lot, but was puzzled as to why the drums weren't as in-your-face as normal, and when we told him that it was a new drummer, he was like, "Oh, I couldn't even tell."

How would you? The drums are all programmed for ADTOE. It's not like Mangini recorded any of it with the band. 

[Zydar]

What? JP programmed the drums for the demos, but it's all MM on the album.

[Mindflux]

What? JP programmed the drums for the demos, but it's all MM on the album.

I thought I had read (hazy memory, last DT album that I really "loved" was 8VM) that JP laid it all out and programmed it and MM just filled the spot after the album had been recorded. 

[bosk1]

No.  JP programmed basic drum parts for the demos.  Mangini wrote and performed the actual drum parts for the album, with input from JP.

[Mindflux]

No.  JP programmed basic drum parts for the demos.  Mangini wrote and performed the actual drum parts for the album, with input from JP.

If so he didn't get any writing credits, at least according to wikipedia.

<sub>Track listing

All lyrics by John Petrucci, except where noted.
No.    Title    Lyrics    Music    Length    
1.    "On the Backs of Angels"           Petrucci, Rudess, Myung    8:42
2.    "Build Me Up, Break Me Down"           Petrucci, Rudess, Myung, LaBrie    6:59
3.    "Lost Not Forgotten"           Petrucci, Rudess, Myung, LaBrie    10:11
4.    "This Is the Life"           Petrucci, Rudess    6:57
5.    "Bridges in the Sky"           Petrucci, Rudess, Myung    11:01
6.    "Outcry"           Petrucci, Rudess, Myung    11:24
7.    "Far From Heaven"      LaBrie    Petrucci, Rudess, LaBrie    3:56
8.    "Breaking All Illusions"      Myung, Petrucci    Petrucci, Rudess, Myung    12:25
9.    "Beneath the Surface"           Petrucci    5:26
Total length:
   77:05</sub>

[bosk1]

Correct.  Because he was not present during the writing sessions.  He wrote the drums parts (and only the drum parts) after the fact, and often based on the basic tracks JP had programmed.  A drummer usually wouldn't get writing credit in that situation. 

[Dacling]

No.  JP programmed basic drum parts for the demos.  Mangini wrote and performed the actual drum parts for the album, with input from JP.

If so he didn't get any writing credits, at least according to wikipedia.

<sub>Track listing

All lyrics by John Petrucci, except where noted.
No.    Title    Lyrics    Music    Length    
1.    "On the Backs of Angels"           Petrucci, Rudess, Myung    8:42
2.    "Build Me Up, Break Me Down"           Petrucci, Rudess, Myung, LaBrie    6:59
3.    "Lost Not Forgotten"           Petrucci, Rudess, Myung, LaBrie    10:11
4.    "This Is the Life"           Petrucci, Rudess    6:57
5.    "Bridges in the Sky"           Petrucci, Rudess, Myung    11:01
6.    "Outcry"           Petrucci, Rudess, Myung    11:24
7.    "Far From Heaven"      LaBrie    Petrucci, Rudess, LaBrie    3:56
8.    "Breaking All Illusions"      Myung, Petrucci    Petrucci, Rudess, Myung    12:25
9.    "Beneath the Surface"           Petrucci    5:26
Total length:
   77:05</sub>

That's because he didn't write any of the drum parts or any of the music. JP wrote the drum parts and he played them with a little variation here and there.

[bosk1]

That's because he didn't write any of the drum parts or any of the music. JP wrote the drum parts and he played them with a little variation here and there.

Incorrect (except the part about him not writing the music).  Mike Mangini and John Petrucci have both confirmed that Mangini did write the drum parts. 

[MoraWintersoul]

If you think really hard about it - could JP really write drum parts that are that detailed? I'm pretty sure he never expected to have an opportunity to write drum parts for DT albums in his life, and he's not a person who'd go into something with inadequate level of preparation. Therefore, the notion of him writing anything more detailed than just loose instructions for drums is not believable, let alone him programming the parts of ADTOE and Mangini playing them note per note or with little variation. Even if he had the know-how, that still would have taken more time than he would have had.

[nikatapi]

If you think really hard about it - could JP really write drum parts that are that detailed? I'm pretty sure he never expected to have an opportunity to write drum parts for DT albums in his life, and he's not a person who'd go into something with inadequate level of preparation. Therefore, the notion of him writing anything more detailed than just loose instructions for drums is not believable, let alone him programming the parts of ADTOE and Mangini playing them note per note or with little variation. Even if he had the know-how, that still would have taken more time than he would have had.

Agreed. It is obvious that JP couldn't write so detailed drum parts, and they have said in interviews that MM wrote a lot of the drum parts, having the drum machine parts as a guideline for the timing and the feel the other guys wanted in the songs.

There might be some confusion because MM plays in a straightforward way even when playing odd times, with not as many complicated hihat licks as MP, and keeping a more steady flow to his drumming, unlike MP who liked to change the feel of the rhythms every few bars in the songs.
That could lead someone to think that it was actually drum machine parts played by MM, but i'm sure he had a lot of input in his drum parts on the album.

[rumborak]

That's true.  A friend of friend (who's been listening to the band almost as long we have been, nearly 20 years now) commented to the both of us a while back that he liked ADOTE a lot, but was puzzled as to why the drums weren't as in-your-face as normal, and when we told him that it was a new drummer, he was like, "Oh, I couldn't even tell."

Which, as much as I like MM, shows how safe they played it with him as a replacement for MP. The other drummer options would have been, for better or for worse, distinctively different.

[snapple]

Well, on another forum, they won't even call DT "DT" anymore because MP isn't in the band.

Ah yes - because a few people make the statement that it's not DT without MP on that forum, then that means in general the whole forum agrees with that sentiment. Funny because there seems to be a lot of discussion on that forum with quite a few positive and hopeful things said in favor of DT. If you don't like that other forum which is clearly evident by the crap you spew over here, fine, but don't make that entire forum/group of people out to be fanboys when they aren't. 

Let me stop you right there. I don't spew shit out over there. I don't hate it there. But it's predominately fanboys, and it's tiresome. The DT thread started out with "I miss MP so much ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((" "DT isn't DT without MP" "DT won't be getting my money because MP isn't in the band" and the general "let's attribute all things positive with DT past to MP" bullshit. Those "fans" don't NEED to post negative opinions in there. The conversation has been hashed out so many times that it's ridiculous. But now that there is a new thread? Let's bring 'em up again! And yes, it has been fairly positive since I initially posted what I did on here (check dates, bruv)

[TheOutlawXanadu]

The answer, IMO, is "no."  But I don't understand why people are acting like they don't understand the question or that it is a dumb question.  It isn't.  This question/issue comes up all the time.

Agreed. The question makes a lot of sense.

[Setlist Scotty]

Well, on another forum, they won't even call DT "DT" anymore because MP isn't in the band.

Ah yes - because a few people make the statement that it's not DT without MP on that forum, then that means in general the whole forum agrees with that sentiment. Funny because there seems to be a lot of discussion on that forum with quite a few positive and hopeful things said in favor of DT. If you don't like that other forum which is clearly evident by the crap you spew over here, fine, but don't make that entire forum/group of people out to be fanboys when they aren't. 

Let me stop you right there. I don't spew shit out over there. I don't hate it there. But it's predominately fanboys, and it's tiresome. The DT thread started out with "I miss MP so much ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((" "DT isn't DT without MP" "DT won't be getting my money because MP isn't in the band" and the general "let's attribute all things positive with DT past to MP" bullshit. Those "fans" don't NEED to post negative opinions in there. The conversation has been hashed out so many times that it's ridiculous. But now that there is a new thread? Let's bring 'em up again! And yes, it has been fairly positive since I initially posted what I did on here (check dates, bruv)

Time for you to re-read what *I* said. I said you spew your crap *here* - as in on *this* forum about how bad it is over there. And sorry, for all the bagging you do about that forum on this forum, I have a hard time believing that you don't hate it there. I think you're on the edge of being a DT-fanboy who likes to go over there to see what kind of new "terrible" things said there, so that you can whine about it over here and make yourself feel better.

And if you wanna play the quote game, then allow me to do the same. How about:

"I am happy to see it as I enjoyed their last cd."

"I'm extremely excited about the new album, I thought the last one was a classic."

"I am really excited for the new album as I have said in the recent past, DT has now become a studio band for me.  I love their studio work, but their live show just doesn't overwhelm me anymore.

"Good for them to be so eager to return to the studio and to hash out new material."

"I hope their live release comes out soon as well."

All of these things were posted on the first page of the current thread, before you decided to piss in it with your comments. And yeah, there are some negative comments in that thread, but some of the negative comments about DT go back to *before* MP left the band. So how does that make them MP-fanboys?

And so what if a minor number of people do post stupid comments like "there is no DT without MP"? It's his friggin' forum, so it should be expected that there will be *some* of that, just like the same could be said on this forum or any other. I and many others there don't agree with it, but who cares what's said there? If those individuals came over to this forum, you'd have a point; but they don't.

So please stop the lame blanket statements that the majority of the people who are on that forum are MP-fanboys, because it's untrue. If all you wanna find are MP-fanboys, you'll find them. But you'll be ignoring the existence of many others.

[snapple]

It's 50/50 and I'm not really going to argue that with you.

[wolven74]

I'm not sure how we're having a discussion that includes DT, Iced Earth and Megadeth all in the same breath. To me, of all three of these....DT is the ONLY band with ANY credibility left. Iced Earth was good up through Horror Show, which I would say is their benchmark album, as everything after Horror Show sounded almost exactly like Horror Show, but not as good. Very cookie cutter. Probably because Schaffer was the sole songwriter/control freak. His music, his way.

Same thing goes with Megadeth to a somewhat lesser degree. I always thought Megadeth lost their edge after Countdown to Extinction. I don't think Megadeth's problems lie with the lineup changes, or the fact that Mustaine is a bit of a control freak himself. Mustaine for a while was Megadeth, true, but the fault with them and the biggest difference outside of music between Megadeth and DT is that, from the beginning Megadeth was more of a personal revenge tool for Mustaine against Metallica. The problem with Megadeth is they always wanted to sound like another band, always wanted to one-up a more popular band. Had nothing to do with line-up, but almost everything to do with one man's jealousy.

DT has the most integrity and credibility and the least in common with either of these two because, no matter the lineup changes, each album is an improvement over the last. A part of that is because the creative and personal chemistry has consistently been tweaked, improved upon, and most importantly, nourished with each change. I've always seen DT as more a family than a band. That's the feeling I get when I see all the BTS footage. Whereas with Iced Earth and Megadeth, the relationships (for the most part) are business relationships of boss/chief songwriter with musician minions to do his bidding.

Megadeth sounds nothing like Metallica.

Sorry. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that in the beginning, when Megadeth was formed, it was formed out of a need Dave Mustaine felt to prove himself as good as Metallica. I know recently, Metallica has lost...something...that made them great, while Mustaine and his band have improved a lot. I'm not a fan of Megadeth anymore and I barely consider myself a fan of Metallica. My point was that to compare the three bands on basis of lineup is really rather ridiculous, considering the chemistry DT cultivates with...I wanna say 4 out of 5 replacements they've made. I'm not sure if DS left because of bad vibes or just wanted to do his own thing.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

That's because he didn't write any of the drum parts or any of the music. JP wrote the drum parts and he played them with a little variation here and there.

Incorrect (except the part about him not writing the music).  Mike Mangini and John Petrucci have both confirmed that Mangini did write the drum parts. 

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that JP programmed all the drum parts into a machine, and then Mangini came in and just tweaked them a bit.