Where would you stick B-sides on I&W, Awake, and FII?

[darkshade]

Songs like To Live Forever, Eve, A Change of Seasons, Raise The Knife, The Way It Used To Be, You or Me, Speak to Me, Where Are You Now?, Don't Look Past Me, etc. were originally meant to be on their respective albums. Where would you put these songs on the albums they were meant to be on? I know To Live Forever was recorded for both I&W and Awake, so you can choose either album for that, and You or Me can either replace You Not Me on FII, or you can have both.
Here's a controversial one. Where would you stick Raw Dog if it were recorded during album sessions for BC&SL?

Don't worry about the fact that CDs would not be able to hold all those songs, most likely.

I'll have my lists up later.

[ZKX-2099]

The Way It Used To Be before Trial Of Tears.

[The Letter M]

Images And Words
Side 1 - 25:36
1. Pull Me Under
2. Another Day
3. Take The Time
4. To Live Forever

Side 2 - 21:27
5. Metropolis Part 1
6. Surrounded
7. Don't Look Past Me

Side 3 - 21:15
8. Under A Glass Moon
9. Wait For Sleep
10. Learning To Live

Side 4 - 23:09
11. A Change Of Seasons

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Awake
Side 1 - 21:53
1.   "6:00" - 5:31
2.   "Caught in a Web" - 5:28
3.     "Eve" - 5:11
4.   "Innocence Faded" - 5:43

Side 2 - 20:26
5.   "A Mind Beside Itself: I. Erotomania"  - 6:45
6.   "A Mind Beside Itself: II. Voices" - 9:53
7.   "A Mind Beside Itself: III. The Silent Man" - 3:48

Side 3 - 19:24
8.   "The Mirror" - 6:45
9.   "Lie"  - 6:34
10.   "Lifting Shadows Off a Dream"  - 6:05

Side 4 - 18:29
11.   "Scarred" - 11:00
12.   "Space-Dye Vest" - 7:29

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Falling Into Infinity
Side 1 - 19:03
1. Raise The Knife
2. Where Are You Now

Side 2 - 19:43
3. Take Away My Pain ('96 Version)
4. You Or Me
5. Hollow Years ('96 Version)

Side 3 - 21:51
6. Burning My Soul
7. Hell's Kitchen
8. Lines In The Sand

Side 4 - 18:26
9. New Millennium
10. Cover My Eyes
11. Peruvian Skies

Side 5 - 19:25
12. Speak To Me
13. Just Let Me Breathe
14. The Way It Used To Be

Side 6 - 18:58
15. Anna Lee
16. Trial Of Tears

Yes, a triple LP...or a double CD (with sides 1-3 on Disc 1 and sides 4-6 on Disc 2)

-Marc.

[wasteland]

Best post I've seen in weeks. 

I would only move Eve between Scarred and Space Dye Vest. I think it belonges to the last part of the album, rather than the first.

[Dacling]

I actually had planned to make a thread later in the same vain. Basically how would you change any of their albums to make them better by adding a demo, removing a song, changing the track order or removing a whole section of the song and spiting it (*cough* Ministry of Lost Souls *cough*)

[MoraWintersoul]

I would only move Eve between Scarred and Space Dye Vest.

That would really kill me.

[Cool Chris]

Eve is tricky. I love CiaW-IF, and think Eve would be really out of place between them. And Eve before SDV at the end wouldn't work for me either.

Dang, that FII would be a slog to get though.

[MoraWintersoul]

Just thinking about how awesome Eve would sound after Voices but then it would "ruin" AMBI. Yup, right after Scarred fades away, it sets the tempo and the heart for SDV. More or less a hint of where would Kev go after, just like SDV, but a different tone.

[orcus116]

ACOS after LTL is a bit much, considering how perfectly LTL closes the album. I think it'd just ruin the flow, personally.

[theGonz]

I had heard somewhere that if ACOS had been included on IW, it would've been placed after UAGM.

[TheGreatPretender]

I&W:

Pull Me Under
Another Day
Take The Time
To Live Forever
Surrounded
Metropolis
Don't Look Past Me
Under A Glass Moon
Wait For Sleep
Learning to Live
A Change Of Seasons

Awake:
6:00
Caught In A Web
Innocence Faded
A Mind Beside Itself
Eve
The Mirror
Lie
etc.

ACOS after LTL is a bit much, considering how perfectly LTL closes the album. I think it'd just ruin the flow, personally.

Normally I would agree, but I actually find that ACOS going after LTL on LSFNY worked pretty well.

[theliloutkast]

ACOS after LTL is a bit much, considering how perfectly LTL closes the album. I think it'd just ruin the flow, personally.

I would have to agree. I think the album is better with ACOS not on it. Even though ACOS is one of my favorite songs, it would ruin the flow of the album.

[The Letter M]

ACOS after LTL is a bit much, considering how perfectly LTL closes the album. I think it'd just ruin the flow, personally.

Normally I would agree, but I actually find that ACOS going after LTL on LSFNY worked pretty well.

I think it works even better with the studio versions of the songs since LTL fades out in the end.

Either way, I made my lists based on how the albums would be made on vinyl, so the fade-out still works for LTL to end Side 3, and places the epic ACOS on the last side of vinyl all by itself.

-Marc.

[Cedar redaC]

I've got an idea: Take all of the B-sides from the first four albums and compile them onto a disc or two. Dream Theater wouldn't necessarily have to tour for this, but I think it would be great to make all of the non-album songs easier to access. Kind of the opposite idea of a greatest hits album. Take songs that were cut from studio records and release the compilation. That way, songs like Eve fit in better with some of the Falling into Infinity tracks.

Cleaning Out the Closet comes to mind, but considering that it was a fan club CD, it has long since been out of print. Trying to get one on Ebay will set you back at least a hundred bucks.

I think that taking the songs, properly re-mixing and re-mastering them, and then releasing them would be a fun and interesting look at the evolution of the band in its earlier days.

[BlobVanDam]

I'd mostly keep them all right where they are.

IaW is almost perfect as is, and I don't think ACOS would work with the zippy flow of the album. It works best as a standalone piece.

Maybe I'd stick To Live Forever near the end of Awake though. Heck, if you lopped off everything after Lie and just stuck TLF at the end, I'd probably rank it quite a bit higher!

Aside from that, none of the non-album tracks really interest me enough to include them on their respective albums. I'm one of those crazy few who thinks FII is great as-is, and I think a lot of the leftover tracks would weaken the balance of the album. RTK is a decent song, but I just don't think it would work.

[wasteland]

Just thinking about how awesome Eve would sound after Voices but then it would "ruin" AMBI. Yup, right after Scarred fades away, it sets the tempo and the heart for SDV. More or less a hint of where would Kev go after, just like SDV, but a different tone.

Exactly, but Eve was written in 91/92, well before Kevin's "change" of perspective on DT. Nonetheless, the reflect his character just as well as Wait For Sleep and SDV do. I just wouldn't say it foreshadows his future career, too much had still to happen by the time it was written.

[The Dark Master]

I did a post like this a while back in different thread, but I figured I'd post about it again because my feelings on the I&W b-sides have changed a bit since then. 

Images and Words

Side A - 26:27

Pull Me Under
Another Day
Take The Time
Surrounded

Side B - 20:31

Metropolis
To Live Forever
Don't Look Past Me

Side C - 21:04

Under A Glass Moon
Wait For Sleep
Learning To Live

Side D - 16:44 -or- 17:35 -or- 19:30 -or- 23:08

A Change of Seasons

(yes, I know that the 23 min version of ACOS didn't exist untill '95, but if the band had been given the go-ahead to do a double LP for I&W, they may have decided to expand the song to a full 23 minutes at that point in time, although it still would have had the original lyrics&vox melodies, Kev's keyboards and John's 6 string guitar parts)

Awake

uhhhh, putting Eve right before or right after SDV is good enough for me, although I also think it works well as a sort of intro to Scarred.

Falling Into Infinity

Side A - 19:07

Raise The Knife (Demo Version)
Where Are You Now? (Demo Version)

Side B - 19:49

Take Away My Pain (Demo Version)
You Or Me (Demo Version)
Anna Lee (Demo Version)

Side C - 23:17

Burning My Soul (Album Version)
Hell's Kitchen (Album Version)
Lines In The Sand (Demo Version, but with Doug's vox in the chorus)

Side D - 19:58

Just Let Me Breathe (Demo Version)
Peruvian Skies (Demo Version)
The Way It Used To Be (Demo Version)

Side E - 18:08

Cover My Eyes (Demo Version)
Hollow Years (Demo Version)
New Millennium (Demo Version)

Side F - 19:19

Speak To Me (Demo Version)
Trial Of Tears (Demo Version)

[MoraWintersoul]

Nonetheless, the reflect his character just as well as Wait For Sleep and SDV do.

That is exactly what I meant.

[Octavaripolis]

I wouldn't include ACoS on IaW at all. That album is way too perfect for such a long song. LTL would be minimized in comparison to it, also. I would stick To Live Forever between Metropolis and UaGM for some diversity in between two such hard, rocking songs.

[?]

I wouldn't include ACoS on IaW at all. That album is way too perfect for such a long song. LTL would be minimized in comparison to it, also.

Agreed.

I don't think there's a good place for Eve on Awake, either. A mellow instrumental after a rocking duo of openers would be a momentum killer and if it was between IF and Erotomania, there'd be 2 instrumentals in a row. There's also a problem with the mellow songs (well, Scarred starts out in a pretty mellow way) towards the end of the album and if Eve was stuck there, it could make the atmosphere too samey.

[The Dark Master]

I wouldn't include ACoS on IaW at all. That album is way too perfect for such a long song. LTL would be minimized in comparison to it, also.

Agreed.

I don't think there's a good place for Eve on Awake, either. A mellow instrumental after a rocking duo of openers would be a momentum killer and if it was between IF and Erotomania, there'd be 2 instrumentals in a row. There's also a problem with the mellow songs (well, Scarred starts out in a pretty mellow way) towards the end of the album and if Eve was stuck there, it could make the atmosphere too samey.

Totally disagree about ACOS.  Despite the changes made to the song over the years, stylistically, it fits in perfectly with I&W, and it doesn't diminish the songs already on the record in anyway; rather it adds to them and the greatness of the album over all.  Furthermore, LTL leads very nicely into the '95 version of ACOS, and I think it would have been very cool if the acoustic outro of ACOS ended with the first few notes of PMU, thus creating and 8VM-esque musical loop.

I am starting to agree about Eve and Awake, though.  Considering that Kev wrote the song during the I&W period, I suppose it would have been a better fit on that album rather then Awake.  In that case, I would include it with TLF and DLPM on side B between Metropolis and UAGM.



Side A - 26:27

Pull Me Under
Another Day
Take The Time
Surrounded

Side B - 25:40

Metropolis
To Live Forever
Don't Look Past Me
Eve

Side C - 21:04

Under A Glass Moon
Wait For Sleep
Learning To Live

Side D - 23:08

A Change of Seasons

[The Letter M]

I wouldn't include ACoS on IaW at all. That album is way too perfect for such a long song. LTL would be minimized in comparison to it, also.

Agreed.

I don't think there's a good place for Eve on Awake, either. A mellow instrumental after a rocking duo of openers would be a momentum killer and if it was between IF and Erotomania, there'd be 2 instrumentals in a row. There's also a problem with the mellow songs (well, Scarred starts out in a pretty mellow way) towards the end of the album and if Eve was stuck there, it could make the atmosphere too samey.

Totally disagree about ACOS.  Despite the changes made to the song over the years, stylistically, it fits in perfectly with I&W, and it doesn't diminish the songs already on the record in anyway; rather it adds to them and the greatness of the album over all.  Furthermore, LTL leads very nicely into the '95 version of ACOS, and I think it would have been very cool if the acoustic outro of ACOS ended with the first few notes of PMU, thus creating and 8VM-esque musical loop.

I am starting to agree about Eve and Awake, though.  Considering that Kev wrote the song during the I&W period, I suppose it would have been a better fit on that album rather then Awake.  In that case, I would include it with TLF and DLPM on side B between Metropolis and UAGM.

Good post!

I also have an IAW track list that includes "Eve" that is slightly different than the one I posted above:

LP 1 - 52:31
LP 2 - 44:14
Total - 96:45

Side 1 - 26:06
1. Pull Me Under    (8:11)
2. Another Day       (4:23)
3. Eve          (5:11)
4. Take The Time    (8:21)

Side 2 - 26:25
5. Metropolis Part 1    (9:32)
5. Surrounded       (5:30)
6. To Live Forever    (4:58)
8. Don't Look Past Me    (6:25)

Side 3 - 21:06
9. Under A Glass Moon    (7:03)
10. Wait For Sleep    (2:32)
11. Learning To Live   (11:31)

Side 4 - 23:08
12. A Change Of Seasons (23:08)


Like you, I kept the 2nd LP the same, keeping UAGM/WFS/LTL as it was for Side 3, and ACOS at the very end for Side 4.
For the first LP, however, I did it a bit differently. As a mirror to LTL fading out on Side 3, I put TTT and DLPM to end Sides 1 and 2 respectively, as both songs fade-out. This left a space open on Side 1 between the 1-2 punch of PMU and AD and the closing song of TTT: the gap was inevitably filled by "Eve" as a good breather between AD and TTT.
That left Side 2 with "Metropolis" opening it, and filling in the middle with "Surrounded" and "To Live Forever" (which, for this case, I used the '94 version since it's got a more definite ending).

-Marc.

[chaotic_ripper]

Replace Space-Dye Vest with Eve.

[?]

*alternate tracklist for I&W*

*alternate tracklist for I&W*

Eve could work on I&W, but the problem is that it wasn't written until after the album was released: they premiered it in March '93. It's kinda funny actually - I love the song, but it doesn't feel like it fits on any full-length album! Maybe that's what makes it even more magical...

[wasteland]

*alternate tracklist for I&W*

*alternate tracklist for I&W*

Eve could work on I&W, but the problem is that it wasn't written until after the album was released: they premiered it in March '93. It's kinda funny actually - I love the song, but it doesn't feel like it fits on any full-length album! Maybe that's what makes it even more magical...

You are right about the magic of the song being at least partially due to its evanescence on the DT catalogue, but are we sure that it was written after IAW? Maybe it was just put aside as the other three song we know were.

[chaotic_ripper]

Yeah, it was one of those things they developed on the road.

[snapple]

To me, To Live Forever is the ONLY huge miss on any of these albums. With that said, I have no idea where i'd put it.

[The Dark Master]

Eve could work on I&W, but the problem is that it wasn't written until after the album was released: they premiered it in March '93. It's kinda funny actually - I love the song, but it doesn't feel like it fits on any full-length album! Maybe that's what makes it even more magical...

True, but then again, the only version of ACOS that technically would have appeared on I&W would have been the 16-17 minute version on the I&W demos and Antiquities, as I am pretty sure the parts added to the '93 version that they played on the I&W tour (extended bass solo in Carpe Diem, added guitar and keyboard solos in Darkest Of Winters, and an added verse in Another World) were also probably developed "on the road".  Now, as I argued, if the band had been given no limit to the amount of music they could put on the album, they may have chosen to expand ACOS to the full 23 min back in '91, and I could make the same argument about Eve.  Ultimately, though, I think Eve was probably never intended to actually be on an album, and I think the only reason there is even a studio version of the song at all is because the band wanted another non-album track as a b-side for one of the Awake singles.  However, if I absolutely had to pick an album to place it on (and I don't always feel the need to do so, since unlike ACOS, TLF, DLPM and the FII lost tracks, there is no evidence Eve was ever intended to actually be on any album), considering that the song was played most often and most prominently on the I&W tour, then I would say it should go on I&W, chronology be damned!

[Glass Moonlight]

Images sounds great with the way The Letter M placed everything, I would only remove ACOS due to the fact the album would be incredibly long at this point, and again Learning to Live ends it so nicely as it is.

[orcus116]

ACOS after LTL is a bit much, considering how perfectly LTL closes the album. I think it'd just ruin the flow, personally.

Normally I would agree, but I actually find that ACOS going after LTL on LSFNY worked pretty well.

I think it works even better with the studio versions of the songs since LTL fades out in the end.

Depends on how you look at it. The LTL fade out is so strong that it, musically, brings a close to the album. Anything after would just be unnecessary material. Plus ACOS is so contained within its own self that it just does not seem to fit in with the rest of IAW.

[Zook]

*alternate tracklist for I&W*

*alternate tracklist for I&W*

Eve could work on I&W, but the problem is that it wasn't written until after the album was released: they premiered it in March '93. It's kinda funny actually - I love the song, but it doesn't feel like it fits on any full-length album! Maybe that's what makes it even more magical...

You are right about the magic of the song being at least partially due to its evanescence on the DT catalogue, but are we sure that it was written after IAW? Maybe it was just put aside as the other three song we know were.

That is the first time I've ever seen the word evanescence used to describe something.

That is all.

[Jamariquay]

Hm.

Pull Me Under
Take The Time
Surrounded
Metropolis, Pt. 1
To Live Forever
Under A Glass Moon
Wait For Sleep
Learning To Live

(Don't really care for Another Day or Don't Look Past Me)


6:00
Caught In A Web
....
Scarred
Space-Dye Vest
Eve

(Eve makes an excellent close to the album. I think this way, it does exceed 80 minutes, but you know.)


New Millennium
You Or Me
Peruvian Skies
Hell's Kitchen
Lines In The Sand
Hollow Years
Raise The Knife
The Way It Used To Be
Trial Of Tears


I'd leave A Change Of Seasons on its own EP.

[The Dark Master]

I came up with this alternate tracklist for I&W the other day:


Side A - 23:35

Pull Me Under
Another Day
Don't Look Past Me
To Live Forever

Side B - 23:23

Take The Time
Surrounded
Metropolis

Side C - 21:04

Under A Glass Moon
Wait For Sleep
Learning To Live

Side D - 23:08

A Change of Seasons


What I like about the album this way is that it makes all the sides more or less equal length.  I think a Side A of relatively short and commercial songs works pretty well, and I really like having Side B open with Take The Time and end with Metropolis.  I feel TTT makes a good side opener and Metropolis is a great finale for the album's first half.  Plus this way it preserves the position of Metropolis as the centerpiece of the album.

[wasteland]

That is the first time I've ever seen the word evanescence used to describe something.

That is all.

I was just being literal tra slating my thought into English.