Is Pull Me Under really a good choice for the deep in the set list?

[KevShmev]

I noticed it has been an encore a lot lately, but it seems like an odd choice.  Okay, I know it is their one big hit, and an obvious classic, but it strikes me as a song that works much better early in the set.  I remember how much it slayed having it open the shows on the Awake tour; it a great opener, on CD and live.  On the flip side, I think part of my problem with the Budokan DVD was how anti-climatic it was as the set closer (before the encore).

My two cents: Pull Me Under is much better when played early in the set vs. deep in the set. 

[Lolzeez]

Agreed.

[Onno]

Yep, agreed.

[Ħ]

Agreed. Like, not the opener, but maybe the 4th song or so. It's just not epic enough to be a closer.

[voncorn]

-

[Unlegit]

I feel like it'd be an awesome song to play after the acoustic set or a couple softer songs.

[Elite]

It's just not epic enough to be a closer.

This for me definitely. Add to that the fact that I still want to see them play Metropolis live and I could go without hearing Pull Me Under live. I heard it last february and while I do believe it's a good song, DT has better songs in their catalogue to serve as an encore.

[BlobVanDam]

I think it works well as a closer given the importance of it, although I wouldn't have any problem with it being played earlier in the set either. Indifference!

[ResultsMayVary]

The OP is right. Agreed.

[Scorpion]

Agreed. Though it's also not a good choice for earlier in the set, as there are many DT songs that are far, far better and more deserving of PMU's eight minutes.

[Sycsa]

As most bands tend to leave their biggest hit for last, it seems like an obvious choice, at least from the perspective of casual fans.

[Setlist Scotty]

Sorry Kev - disagree with you on that one. Personally I too could go without hearing that song again. But seeing as it is their one "hit" I know that ain't gonna happen. So if they're gonna play it, to me, it makes sense that they'd play it towards the end of the set, as it's the one song that casual fans are most likely to know. If the song was played early in the show, what more will the casual fans have to look forward to that they are familiar with?

To me Pull Me Under is DT's Tom Sawyer. And in the same way, if Tom Sawyer's gonna be played, it doesn't feel right unless played towards the end of the show. (Likewise Ytse Jam = YYZ, where both work better in the middle of the show and Learning to Live = Natural Science, where both work better towards the end of a show or set).

[theGonz]

I concur.

[TheGreatPretender]

Sorry Kev - disagree with you on that one. Personally I too could go without hearing that song again. But seeing as it is their one "hit" I know that ain't gonna happen. So if they're gonna play it, to me, it makes sense that they'd play it towards the end of the set, as it's the one song that casual fans are most likely to know. If the song was played early in the show, what more will the casual fans have to look forward to that they are familiar with?

To me Pull Me Under is DT's Tom Sawyer. And in the same way, if Tom Sawyer's gonna be played, it doesn't feel right unless played towards the end of the show. (Likewise Ytse Jam = YYZ, where both work better in the middle of the show and Learning to Live = Natural Science, where both work better towards the end of a show or set).

Ironically, as a hardcore fan, I find the idea of playing it at the end boring. Not even just as an encore, but even if it's just NEAR the end, like in Budokan. After hearing so much awesomeness, Pull Me Under is really underwhelming.

Actually, I'm not sure I agree with your logic. I mean, in theory it makes sense, but if someone is a casual DT fan, would they honestly pay $100 for a concert ticket?

[Jaq]

While I can see why people have issues with it being late in the set, honestly given its historical status as the most important song in DT's history, it pretty much belongs late in the set, notably as an encore. While I'm sure people HERE would have no problem with it opening the set or hitting in the middle where Ytse Jam normally goes, most DT fans would be puzzled by Pull Me Under not being either the last song or the encore. It's that iconic.

[Setlist Scotty]

Sorry Kev - disagree with you on that one. Personally I too could go without hearing that song again. But seeing as it is their one "hit" I know that ain't gonna happen. So if they're gonna play it, to me, it makes sense that they'd play it towards the end of the set, as it's the one song that casual fans are most likely to know. If the song was played early in the show, what more will the casual fans have to look forward to that they are familiar with?

To me Pull Me Under is DT's Tom Sawyer. And in the same way, if Tom Sawyer's gonna be played, it doesn't feel right unless played towards the end of the show. (Likewise Ytse Jam = YYZ, where both work better in the middle of the show and Learning to Live = Natural Science, where both work better towards the end of a show or set).

Ironically, as a hardcore fan, I find the idea of playing it at the end boring. Not even just as an encore, but even if it's just NEAR the end, like in Budokan. After hearing so much awesomeness, Pull Me Under is really underwhelming.

Actually, I'm not sure I agree with your logic. I mean, in theory it makes sense, but if someone is a casual DT fan, would they honestly pay $100 for a concert ticket?

If they were the wife/girlfriend of a fan, maybe. Then again, not all the tickets to all the shows cost $100 either.

[hefdaddy42]

I see no reason for DT to cater to the kind of casual fan you are describing. 

[Adami]

I see no reason for DT to cater to the kind of casual fan you are describing.

DT is a huge band. They're a house hold name at this point. You don't sell out a 50,000 seat concert to only hardcore fans you know. So a lot of people at their shows are people who have only heard a handful of their songs on the radio. So you have to give those fans a reason to stay till the end. That's why they end their shows with Seek and Destroy.



....or something.

[wasteland]

Honestly, I think PMU works great as encore (sure, it's not my favourite choice, but it's good enough), but even better as the show opener. Elsewhere, not so much, unless they were cut the intro out. (was done in 96/98, I quite liked the result(.

[KevShmev]

I see no reason for DT to cater to the kind of casual fan you are describing.

Amen to that. 

[Dublagent66]

I could go the rest of my entire life without hearing this song and not be too bummed, live or studio version.

DT has done a lot of songs live that sounded better than the studio version.  PMU is definitely not one of them.  I've never heard a live version of PMU that I liked, which bums me out.  I wonder if the studio version was too over produced.   

[Setlist Scotty]

I see no reason for DT to cater to the kind of casual fan you are describing.

Amen to that.

Then don't play it at all. And don't play half of the songs that get overplayed either. Play just all the obscure stuff that only diehard fans are gonna know and love.




[/sarcasm] Yeah, that doesn't make much sense either, now does it? As I said in another thread, I think balance is key. The guys do have to consider that there will be casual fans in the audience, just as there are gonna be the diehard fans like us, because that is the reality of the audiences they play to. So picking a setlist out does include the best song order.

Construct a setlist just for the diehards and you'll lose the rest of the audience. Construct a setlist just for casual fans and you lose all the diehards.

[robwebster]

I see no reason for DT to cater to the kind of casual fan you are describing.

No reason to cater to the radio-fan, but I'd wager a huge proportion of the people at any given DT concert haven't got, let's say, When Dream and Day Unite. Hell, a fair proportion of the people here don't have When Dream and Day Unite.

Dream Theater probably have more list-making obsessives in their fanbase than most bands, but I don't think it's like there's us, and a few stragglers who heard Constant Motion on the radio once. Most people at any given gig will be somewhere in the middle. Which is a fairly broad spectrum, but I certainly wouldn't expect most of them to have heard every single song - most bands I've been to see, I've only had a handful of their albums. Big songs like Pull Me Under that almost everyone in that room can be expected to know are not nearly as crucial as they are for lots of other bands - DT are quite privileged to have a fanbase who'll happily evaluate and appreciate more or less anything the band can throw at them - but I don't think that'd make big, trademark songs that can unite a room in a second any less valuable. Particularly when they're strategically placed in the dying embers of the evening. Compare it to something like The Count of Tuscany, which they used as an encore on the Progressive Nation tour last year - perfectly good song, but the full second half is very, very mellow. Ambience, followed by an acoustic bit... the energy had been sapped out of that room long before the sing-along "whoa-oa-oa." section kicked in.

Keeping in mind that when Dream Theater last swung by Indonesia, for example, there were ridiculous numbers of fans posting on Mike Portnoy's facebook page telling him how much they were looking forward to seeing the show.



That said, I do agree that it sounds funny live. Or actually, no - I think it sounds funny on the album. Very synthetic, almost plastic. I do like the grit of the live guitar, and if the album version had a bit more of that it wouldn't sound so unusual, but it does sound very different live. I do get both points of view.

[Chino]

I think the Pullmeopolis medley worked well as a closer.

[ohgar]

Sorry Kev - disagree with you on that one. Personally I too could go without hearing that song again. But seeing as it is their one "hit" I know that ain't gonna happen. So if they're gonna play it, to me, it makes sense that they'd play it towards the end of the set, as it's the one song that casual fans are most likely to know. If the song was played early in the show, what more will the casual fans have to look forward to that they are familiar with?

To me Pull Me Under is DT's Tom Sawyer. And in the same way, if Tom Sawyer's gonna be played, it doesn't feel right unless played towards the end of the show. (Likewise Ytse Jam = YYZ, where both work better in the middle of the show and Learning to Live = Natural Science, where both work better towards the end of a show or set).

DT doesn't have a Tom Sawyer. Sure Pull Me Under was kind of popular like 25 years ago, but it wasn't popular enough that anyone would go to a concert just to hear it. I doubt it's the song by which most Dream Theater fans today were introduced to the band or that it holds any special significance to the majority of people who see them in concert. Dream Theater does not have any "hits" in the sense that Rush does. Tom Sawyer gets regular radio play even today, so most new Rush fans still gain their first exposure to the band through that song. Dream Theater is an underground band that gains fans largely through word of mouth and musicians' magazines.

[Implode]

I think a big reason why it doesn't work is the abrupt ending. It's like you're in the middle of a concert and someone literally came in and pulled the sound from the show. The end. Not that great of an ending. :/

[ohgar]

I think a big reason why it doesn't work is the abrupt ending. It's like you're in the middle of a concert and someone literally came in and pulled the sound from the show. The end. Not that great of an ending. :/

What are you talking about? My copy of Images & Words has Pull Me Under end in a 7-minute piano coda...

[GasparXR]

I think a big reason why it doesn't work is the abrupt ending. It's like you're in the middle of a concert and someone literally came in and pulled the sound from the show. The end. Not that great of an ending. :/

What are you talking about? My copy of Images & Words has Pull Me Under end in a 7-minute piano coda...

Even DT ripped off classical artists?

[KevShmev]

I could go the rest of my entire life without hearing this song and not be too bummed, live or studio version.

DT has done a lot of songs live that sounded better than the studio version.  PMU is definitely not one of them.  I've never heard a live version of PMU that I liked, which bums me out

Agreed, and I think it's because the intro is too hard to get the same echo and power live as in the studio, so it's like the song kicks off with a limp.  Which is why it was awesome the way they did it on the Awake tour, having the first 53 seconds played from the album while the stage was dark and the band came on stage, and then, bam, they explode into it live.  It'd be awesome if they opened shows like that again. 

[senecadawg2]

Yeah, I definitely agree with the majority on this one. Pull Me Under is a nice tune and all, but it definitely isn't the best choice for the closer. Leave that slot for truly epic songs: LtL, Metropolis, or ACOS (just to name the first 3 that come to mind).

[DTFan0789]

I think it's a great closer. 

[?]

Usually it's a clever thing for bands to play the "greatest hit" as (one of) the last song(s) but I find PMU anticlimatic as the closing song due to the abrupt ending - it doesn't sound epic enough and doesn't make you feel "now this is the END" like LTL or Metropolis does. PMU is a great opener, though.

[ZirconBlue]

I think a big reason why it doesn't work is the abrupt ending. It's like you're in the middle of a concert and someone literally came in and pulled the sound from the show. The end. Not that great of an ending. :/

What are you talking about? My copy of Images & Words has Pull Me Under end in a 7-minute piano coda...

On mine, PMU ends with a short snippet of John Cage's 4'33".

[BlobVanDam]

I think a big reason why it doesn't work is the abrupt ending. It's like you're in the middle of a concert and someone literally came in and pulled the sound from the show. The end. Not that great of an ending. :/

What are you talking about? My copy of Images & Words has Pull Me Under end in a 7-minute piano coda...

On mine, PMU ends with a short snippet of John Cage's 4'33".

Did DT even get permission to sample that? That is terrible.

[DTFan0789]

I'm guessing that all of you PMU detractors don't like "No Country For Old Men" either.