When did DT last "gel" as a band?

[Perpetual Change]

I've been listening to Train of Thought at the gym lately, and after one of my last listens I came to a conclusion: for all its flaws, ToT really feels like a full-band effort in a way beyond that of most recent Dream Theater records. Both Johns and Mike seem so locked-in with one another, and while Jordan's stated ToT wasn't his favorite Dream Theater album, that really doesn't show through; I feel like he's on the same page with the other guys, playing at the same energy level. Additionally, ToT isn't James' best studio performance, but he is certainly spirited throughout. He seems aware and understanding of what the band is doing, and sounds right in the middle of it all.

I guess you could say Octavarium and Systematic Chaos were done the same way, with the guys going into the studio and starting together from scratch, but I don't know if they can match up with ToT. 8va does not have the same energy, and by SC, the band just seems tired, with Myung and LaBrie giving on-the-fly performances. By Black Clouds & Silver Linings it's the same, with LaBrie practically phoning in. And while A Dramatic Turn of Events is great, it was not a band effort but instead the meticulous crafting of John Petrucci at work, with band additions made later.

I still like ADTOE better than ToT. I might like 8va and BC&SL better than it, too. But there's just something special about ToT, and I'm only noticing it now. 

[Sketchy]

I think ADTOE shows DT starting to gel again, but I see what you mean by ToT having a certain element of togetherness to it. Hopefully if this question is asked next august, the answer will be "it's about to come out in the shop". Certainly the clips I saw of their tour seem to show movement towards gellingness again.

[Implode]

I'd say it's their best albums. They band was really working to everyone's strengths in I&W. Then as Awake as made, they had their fallout with Kevin. The band was in a confusing place until Scenes hit. With Jordan they were on the same page again working to a an awesome direction. ADTOE was similar in that all members were very involved in the album, but only with 4 people. We might see the full 5 again when Mangini get's to help write the next album!

[Perpetual Change]

I think ADTOE shows DT starting to gel again, but I see what you mean by ToT having a certain element of togetherness to it. Hopefully if this question is asked next august, the answer will be "it's about to come out in the shop". Certainly the clips I saw of their tour seem to show movement towards gellingness again.

Yeah, with ADTOE though, it's not really a band effort but more like John Petrucci knowing his band insanely well, and being able to decide exactly what they need to do where to write the best song. JP is totally in the director's seat, and has utilizing the other band members down to a science. I think it works fantastically, but I can understand why it leaves a minority of fans a little cold. It's missing that band vibe, and definitely feels like something carefully crafted by the guy who knows DT and their fans better than anyone. 

But I'm excited to see what the next DT album is like. I am certain that the band have not even begun to tap the potential of writing with Mangini yet.

[Sketchy]

True, true.

[Mebert78]

Well, when answering this question you need to divide DT into lineups.  Because each lineup "gels" at a different point.  With Kevin, the lineup gelled while writing for I&W, in my opinion.  I remember seeing a video of Myung somewhere in which he said they were recording I&W and he remembers feeling that everything sounded more incredible than anything they had previously done -- like everything was gelling.

I don't think DT had a chance to gel with Sherinian, since he wasn't around long enough.

With Jordan, I think the band gelled with him in Liquid Tension Experiment.  With SFAM, they hit the ground already running. 

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, with ADTOE though, it's not really a band effort but more like John Petrucci knowing his band insanely well, and being able to decide exactly what they need to do where to write the best song. JP is totally in the director's seat, and has utilizing the other band members down to a science. I think it works fantastically, but I can understand why it leaves a minority of fans a little cold. It's missing that band vibe, and definitely feels like something carefully crafted by the guy who knows DT and their fans better than anyone. 

But I'm excited to see what the next DT album is like. I am certain that the band have not even begun to tap the potential of writing with Mangini yet.

I'm not sure I agree JP had that much control on ADTOE, but overall I agree with that assessment of ADTOE, and I definitely agree on the last bit about the next album.

And I felt like they have gelled well on the recent albums, including SC and BCASL. Octavarium feels a bit forced at times with the varying style of songs working against them, but that's about it for me.

[bosk1]

Yeah, with ADTOE though, it's not really a band effort but more like John Petrucci knowing his band insanely well, and being able to decide exactly what they need to do where to write the best song. JP is totally in the director's seat, and has utilizing the other band members down to a science. I think it works fantastically, but I can understand why it leaves a minority of fans a little cold. It's missing that band vibe, and definitely feels like something carefully crafted by the guy who knows DT and their fans better than anyone. 

Um...what?   I'm not sure where you got that impression, but that is directly contrary to everything I have heard about the writing process for ADTOE, both publicly and in my conversations with the bandmembers.  Other than Mangini, everyone else was present and actively participating in the process, including James. 

Granted, once everything was written and recorded, Petrucci was the sole producer.  But that's entirely different than what you posted. 

[CrimsonSunrise]

I think this next album will be the best "Gel" album since 6DOIT.  MM has become an integral part of the band now, you can see it with every show.  By the time they get in the studio, I think they will be as "One" 

[darkshade]

Yeah, with ADTOE though, it's not really a band effort but more like John Petrucci knowing his band insanely well, and being able to decide exactly what they need to do where to write the best song. JP is totally in the director's seat, and has utilizing the other band members down to a science. I think it works fantastically, but I can understand why it leaves a minority of fans a little cold. It's missing that band vibe, and definitely feels like something carefully crafted by the guy who knows DT and their fans better than anyone. 

Um...what?   I'm not sure where you got that impression, but that is directly contrary to everything I have heard about the writing process for ADTOE, both publicly and in my conversations with the bandmembers.  Other than Mangini, everyone else was present and actively participating in the process, including James. 

Granted, once everything was written and recorded, Petrucci was the sole producer.  But that's entirely different than what you posted.

I was thinking the same thing. JP and JR wrote a good amount of the material, but Myung and Labrie also contributed a lot as well; and yes, all 4 were present during the writing.

Also, wasn't TOT the only 2000s album where they wrote the music first, THEN entered the studio?

[Perpetual Change]

I'm not sure I agree JP had that much control on ADTOE, but overall I agree with that assessment of ADTOE, and I definitely agree on the last bit about the next album.

And I felt like they have gelled well on the recent albums, including SC and BCASL. Octavarium feels a bit forced at times with the varying style of songs working against them, but that's about it for me.

Um...what?   I'm not sure where you got that impression, but that is directly contrary to everything I have heard about the writing process for ADTOE, both publicly and in my conversations with the bandmembers.  Other than Mangini, everyone else was present and actively participating in the process, including James. 

Granted, once everything was written and recorded, Petrucci was the sole producer.  But that's entirely different than what you posted. 

I remember watching something where they were talking about the writing ADTOE, and John Myung mentioned how it reminded him of when he and John used to work on songs together. I also remember something else where one of the members mentioned how John and Jordan were discussing how to best utilize Jordan's keyboards on songs. James was free to record his vocals at home, but I'm not sure what guidelines he had going into that, like whether John had given him melodies to work with or not. And with Mangini, we already know John had programmed the drum parts prior-to. Finally, John has lyric credits on all of the songs on the album but one.

I'm not trying to say that John was the band dictator, but I think he was definitely the band leader, and I think it was ultimately his vision that defined much of where ADTOE ended up as an album. I envision the album as having been written much more meticulously and quietly- with maybe John and one or two other members at a time over a long period of time- rather than stemming from the kind of band-wide jamming that occurred on the other albums. But I can't be certain, so I won't pretend to be.

Regardless, I'm not trying to take away from ADTOE here. I love it and it might be my favorite DT album. I'm just trying to express how especially special ToT seems to me all of the sudden. The album suddenly seems very natural to me, like it sprung up organically and completely from really inspired band jam sessions in a way that is kind of rare for Dream Theater records. It was almost like it was thoughtless. And it turned out really, really good. After that, DT used the same writing method going into the next three albums, but I don't they were as good or as energetic. I still like them, but always seem to be more or less shy of one or two members giving their full participation. And with ADTOE, I sense a distinct change of pace. Maybe I'm wrong about what that change of pace was, but it still seems different to me.

And I'm rambling it seems.

[MoraWintersoul]

I can't decide whether 8V was a result of a full band "gelling" but SC and BC&SL definitely weren't, so it was pre-2007 definitely, at least in my eyes. And I can't put my finger on it, but ADTOE did leave me really cold - maybe it's for the reason mentioned but I purely doubt it, because the interviews mostly hint at it being a full band effort, even if different band members were "plugging in" at different times.

[Perpetual Change]

different band members were "plugging in" at different times.

Oh yeah, that's it. I couldn't put my finger on it, but there it is. Those are the impression I got as well. I am positive with ADTOE that John wasn't a dictator; and I'm equally sure that everyone had as much say as they wanted to in the record. But yeah, the writing style definitely isn't the same as "let's jam and see where this goes" that defined the previous three records.

[bosk1]

Joe, it's going to sound like I am nitpicking your post to death just to tear down your point, but I'm not.  I think your premise about ADTOE is completely incorrect, which I point out below.  But that's not to take away from the "especially specialness" of TOT.  Anway...

I remember watching something where they were talking about the writing ADTOE, and John Myung mentioned how it reminded him of when he and John used to work on songs together. 

Right.  Because they were working on songs together.    That's why it made him feel "just like old times" again.

I also remember something else where one of the members mentioned how John and Jordan were discussing how to best utilize Jordan's keyboards on songs. 

Not sure what you are specifically referring to, but I don't see how this takes away from the fact that they wrote the album together.  That's a perfectly natural type of discussion to have.

James was free to record his vocals at home, but I'm not sure what guidelines he had going into that, like whether John had given him melodies to work with or not. And with Mangini, we already know John had programmed the drum parts prior-to. Finally, John has lyric credits on all of the songs on the album but one. 

Yes, but again, writing and recording are not the same thing.  James said (and the rest of the band said so as well) that he was present during much if not all of the writing and that he was offering input.  As a singer, I would guess he was probably offering less input than the other members.  But, again, I think that is normal.  But every indication I have heard is that James was more active in the crafting of the songs themselves on this album than any for a long time.

And with Mangini, we already know John had programmed the drum parts prior-to. 

Yeah.  But, again, we already knew that.  And I mentioned that Mangini wasn't present.  So I agree it perhaps wasn't a "full band effort," since one member wasn't there during the writing.  But the other four were more engaged as a unit than they have ever been--at least in a VERY long time.

John has lyric credits on all of the songs on the album but one.

I can't really argue that, other than just to point out that with Portnoy out of the picture, given the lyric contribution ratio in the past, this makes perfect sense.  I should also add that whatever the process was for involving James in the lyrical process, it is obvious from interviews where he discusses the meaning behind each of the songs (let alone his delivery) that he understands the lyrics on a very deep level and fully invested himself in committing to the messages the lyrics were intended to convey.

I envision the album as having been written much more meticulously and quietly- with maybe John and one or two other members at a time over a long period of time- rather than stemming from the kind of band-wide jamming that occurred on the other albums.

But this is really what it comes down to:  Based on everything the band has said, that assumption is incorrect.  The band have said that, with the exception of Mangini, they wrote this album as a group with constant input from all four members.  It wasn't JP and one or two other members--it was all four of them.

Regardless, I'm not trying to take away from ADTOE here. I love it and it might be my favorite DT album. I'm just trying to express how especially special ToT seems to me all of the sudden.

I get it.  And I'm not trying to detract from what you are saying about TOT.  However, I think the premise that you are arguing about other albums (and especially ADTOE) is incorrect.  But I get what you are saying about TOT, and I don't think the fact that you are mistaken about ADTOE should take away from that.

[Perpetual Change]

Ha, I don't feel like you're nitpicking. Honestly, I hadn't even thought about it that much until now  Like I said in the OP, I've just been listening to ToT more lately and have been trying to point the finger on what makes it different. But I get what you're saying. I guess I perceived the writing sessions of ADTOE a bit inaccurately, and have given John P maybe little bit too much credit.

If I had to modify the comparison I was trying to make between ADTOE and ToT, I'd say that ToT has that old-school vibe of "let's go rent a studio and bang an album out" whereas ADTOE is more meticulous and, as Mora pointed out, the product of different members plugging in at different times.  I think DT tried to go for that old-school style with the three albums after ToT but, while they were good, it just wasn't the same.

[TheGreatPretender]

I've just been listening to ToT more lately and have been trying to point of finger on what makes it different.

What makes it different is that it's pure fuckin' metal!!! 

[MoraWintersoul]

I should also add that whatever the process was for involving James in the lyrical process, it is obvious from interviews where he discusses the meaning behind each of the songs (let alone his delivery) that he understands the lyrics on a very deep level and fully invested himself in committing to the messages the lyrics were intended to convey.

Actually, I remember a 2009 interview with James I read, in which James describes the process of being familiarized with the lyrics, and says he basically always (or often) makes the effort to interpret them and see what they mean to him, but also talk to the original writer and see what they're about, so he can include as much of the "original" feeling as possible and give the song a vibe. I remember reading that and being genuinely impressed by something he said for the first time. And in interviews, he interprets lyrics as if he were a literature teacher; I love that about him.

Edit: Here's the full thing! https://www.rockom.net/articles/2009/09/01/going-deeper-with-dream-theater/

I've always found that I sit down with the lyric, I read it and I have it say to me what it says to me. We all interpret things slightly differently because of our own experiences. So I take that first and I internalize that. Then I will go to whoever the lyricist was and get a literal meaning from them so that I'm absorbing exactly what it is that he is trying to say. From there, I will go away once again and I will sit with all that has been said and I make it eventually become who and what I am. So I've never really found it to be contrived, forced or insincere when I'm singing something. I've always found myself feeling, "This is how it moves me. This is the emotional strain that it has pulled from me. And this is how I'm going to express it." I think that's the only way to do it. If I was trying to be who and what the other lyricists are and how they've been affected by their experiences, I think it would be too mechanical, too forced and too insincere.

Sorry for going off topic but it's a great interview! I found this part interesting as well:

If something was written that I thought was very offensive and literally pointing out someone's fallible qualities then I would definitely say something. I would say, "You know, I'm not comfortable singing this. If you want to somehow convey it some other way, then great." But we've never crossed that bridge and I hope we never do.

So, James, what about that Raise The Knife thing?

[robwebster]

It's missing that band vibe, and definitely feels like something carefully crafted by the guy who knows DT and their fans better than anyone.

(I'm so sorry. I couldn't not.)

[bosk1]

So, James, what about that Raise The Knife thing?

Apparently, he's comfortable with it.

[MoraWintersoul]

Apparently, he's comfortable with it.

Still, the fact it didn't end up on the actual album even though it's, like, one of the better songs they've written (musically) is interesting

[senecadawg2]

The last time they gelled?

ADTOE

[jonnybaxy]

i have to say the last time i felt they were propperly gelled and was octavarium and if not that, the time they were best together and at their peak was SFAM and 6DOIT 

[Kotowboy]

*snip*
(I'm so sorry. I couldn't not.)

I have a feeling that pic is gonna keep being trotted out for comedic purposes for a very long time 

[IdoSC]

The last time they gelled?

ADTOE

This. Before ADTOE, I'd say Octavarium or TOT. Which is why I'm glad about this change of band members in the end of the day. It was a wake up slap for them.

[Kotowboy]

This is probably the wrong thread but since ADTOE was the first time they sounded like proper DT again since being all balls to the wall with instrumentals for the previous two albums...

Does anyone ese think that album 12 will be even better than ADTOE now that they're back to being "them" again ?

It's like they're rediscovering their sound after turning away from it for so long and they'll do it even better next time.

Plus with jamming on tour and jamming as a full band in the studio - the next album should be more of a BAND effort rather than

the four of them sat around jamming on ideas then putting the drums on AFTERWARDS...

[Perpetual Change]

Something that struck me was this: when previous albums were being made, we always got lots of shots of at least all four instrumentalists jamming together in a big studio room. With ADTOE, we didn't get any of that, which is odd considering the way Jordan's always posting video updates these days. Instead, there were a lot of shots of John and Jordan sitting by a control board, or both Johns quietly sitting together and working on something, or Mangini playing on his kit in a completely different place. I don't know if that's an accurate reflection of how it really went down or not, but it's definitely the impression I got.

[Adami]

Something that struck me was this: when previous albums were being made, we always got lots of shots of at least all four instrumentalists jamming together in a big studio room. With ADTOE, we didn't get any of that, which is odd considering the way Jordan's always posting video updates these days. Instead, there were a lot of shots of John and Jordan sitting by a control board, or both Johns quietly sitting together and working on something, or Mangini playing on his kit in a completely different place. I don't know if that's an accurate reflection of how it really went down or not, but it's definitely the impression I got.

Well Mangini didn't jam with them at all for the album as far as I know. He wrote his drum parts at home and then recorded them. I don't think he played the songs with the band first. I think changes were made during the actual recording. Which I also believe was after the rest of the instruments were recorded.

[snapple]

ADTOE. They're all firing on all cylinders.

[FlyingBIZKIT]

ADTOE. They're all firing on all cylinders.

[bosk1]

Something that struck me was this: when previous albums were being made, we always got lots of shots of at least all four instrumentalists jamming together in a big studio room. With ADTOE, we didn't get any of that, which is odd considering the way Jordan's always posting video updates these days. Instead, there were a lot of shots of John and Jordan sitting by a control board, or both Johns quietly sitting together and working on something, or Mangini playing on his kit in a completely different place. I don't know if that's an accurate reflection of how it really went down or not, but it's definitely the impression I got.

Normally, I might agree with you.  But this situation was different.  Mind you, I'm just guessing as to the cause and effect, but my theory is that the band probably informally banned video footage and photography during that time period.  Remember:  the identity of the new drummer was still being kept VERY hush-hush during the time they were writing and recording because the video production company had delayed the TSCO documentary.  The band wasn't putting hardly ANYTHING out there that might hint at what was going on, or might hint at where they were because they didn't want fans finding out about Mangini before it was officially released.

[snapple]

Something that struck me was this: when previous albums were being made, we always got lots of shots of at least all four instrumentalists jamming together in a big studio room. With ADTOE, we didn't get any of that, which is odd considering the way Jordan's always posting video updates these days. Instead, there were a lot of shots of John and Jordan sitting by a control board, or both Johns quietly sitting together and working on something, or Mangini playing on his kit in a completely different place. I don't know if that's an accurate reflection of how it really went down or not, but it's definitely the impression I got.

Normally, I might agree with you.  But this situation was different.  Mind you, I'm just guessing as to the cause and effect, but my theory is that the band probably informally banned video footage and photography during that time period.  Remember:  the identity of the new drummer was still being kept VERY hush-hush during the time they were writing and recording because the video production company had delayed the TSCO documentary.  The band wasn't putting hardly ANYTHING out there that might hint at what was going on, or might hint at where they were because they didn't want fans finding out about Mangini before it was officially released.

But that's just a convenient cop out.

[MoraWintersoul]

But that's just a convenient cop out.

It's just the way things were; the only person who knew outside of the band and band-people was Mangini's wife. It was all ultra-secret, so I purely doubt they'd risk the info going out in any way.

[bosk1]

*snip*
(I'm so sorry. I couldn't not.)

I have a feeling that pic is gonna keep being trotted out for comedic purposes for a very long time 

I think you're probably right.

[robwebster]

*snip*
(I'm so sorry. I couldn't not.)

I have a feeling that pic is gonna keep being trotted out for comedic purposes for a very long time 

I think you're probably right.

Holy shit, the code.

[kirksnosehair]

*snip*
(I'm so sorry. I couldn't not.)

I have a feeling that pic is gonna keep being trotted out for comedic purposes for a very long time 

I think you're probably right.

Holy shit, the code.

muthafukkin