who was the biggest loss to DT

[TheGreatPretender]

isnt that what i said? JP/JR would have to write the riff to play it, and MP edited/arranged them accordingly

Yes, I believe that is what you said.

[KevShmev]

And keep in mind that the other members of DT are more than capable of arranging songs, as A Dramatic Turn of Events showed, so it's not like Portnoy was doing some job that no one else could do. Same thing with Transatlantic, a band that has two fantastic writers and arrangers in Roine Stolt and Neal Morse.  Not discounting the arranging Portnoy does, as I am sure he makes suggestions and has ideas that work extremely well, but, again, I am just saying that it is a job the other guys are more than capable of also doing.

[SeRoX]

The other thing that stuck in my mind: is really Portnoy the main founder of DT? Well, yes if you consider DT's history starting as name Dream Theater. But AFAIK, before Mike Portnoy joined Petrucci and Myung was already in a musical formation as Majesty. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

[theseoafs]

The other thing that stuck in my mind: is really Portnoy the main founder of DT? Well, yes if you consider DT's history starting as name Dream Theater. But AFAIK, before Mike Portnoy joined Petrucci and Myung was already in a musical formation as Majesty. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

You are wrong!

[jonnybaxy]

The other thing that stuck in my mind: is really Portnoy the main founder of DT? Well, yes if you consider DT's history starting as name Dream Theater. But AFAIK, before Mike Portnoy joined Petrucci and Myung was already in a musical formation as Majesty. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Portnoy was also in majesty 

[SeRoX]

The other thing that stuck in my mind: is really Portnoy the main founder of DT? Well, yes if you consider DT's history starting as name Dream Theater. But AFAIK, before Mike Portnoy joined Petrucci and Myung was already in a musical formation as Majesty. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Portnoy was also in majesty 

Yeah I know. But I recall maybe even before majesty there was a musical formation where Petrucci and Myung were together. I guess I made up or got confused. 

[jonnybaxy]

The other thing that stuck in my mind: is really Portnoy the main founder of DT? Well, yes if you consider DT's history starting as name Dream Theater. But AFAIK, before Mike Portnoy joined Petrucci and Myung was already in a musical formation as Majesty. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Portnoy was also in majesty 

Yeah I know. But I recall maybe even before majesty there was a musical formation where Petrucci and Myung were together. I guess I made up or got confused. 

Hmm. Not sure, i know they were MP, JP and JM in the college then then they all dropped out for majesty but maybe JP and JM were just like practicing together? That what you mean?

[SeRoX]

Something like that. Writing some musics, practicing or such.

[BlobVanDam]

JM and JP jammed together, but they were not Majesty until after MP joined that I recall. The story is on the WDADRU DVD.

[MarkFitDT]

Easily MP.

WDADU is DT's worst album, and JLB is great, so CD wasn't a loss.
2 of their 3 albums with KM are by far my bottom DT albums, and they recorded a much better album after he left, so I'm glad he's gone.
When they got rid of DS, they got their best keyboardist and recorded their two best albums back to back, so that was an improvement (nothing against DS, as I love FII more than most people).

But when they got rid of MP, they recorded one of my least favourite DT albums, and I feel they lost elements of the DT sound. And no, that is not fanboy speak (contrary to popular belief, being remotely positive about MP does not make you a fanboy). MM is a better drummer, and a great fit for DT, I'm just underwhelmed with the one album they've recorded with him so far.

I couldnt disagree with this more (Moore!) - DT got back elements of their sound on ADTOE that they had lost on more recent albums. Portnoy (or DT) were introducing things onto recent albums which just werent DT (imho). And they didnt get rid of him - him quit!!

For the record I was gutted when Moore left - I can remember thinking at the time I had waited from 89 (after hearing and loving WDADU) thinking DT had disappeared from the face of the the earth until I&W surfaced from nowhere - no internet for me in those days! Then releasing my fav album of all time and then Awake and thinking it was all over again  when Kevin left. I love Portnoy and his contribution to DT but i am not missing him.

[KevShmev]

DT got back elements of their sound on ADTOE that they had lost on more recent albums. Porntoy (or DT) were introducing things onto recent albums which just werent DT (imho). And they didnt get rid of him - him quit!!

Totally agreed! The elements they lost were ones I wasn't wild about them bringing in in the first place, so I was happy to see those go bye-bye.  Dream Theater on A Dramatic Turn of Events sounded like the DT of the 90s.  Some might call that going backwards, but I prefer to look at it as them going back to their roots and rediscovering the sound and vibe that made them so great back in the 90s. 

For the record I was gutted when Moore left - I can remember thinking at the time I had waited from 89 (after hearing and loving WDADU) thinking DT had disappeared from the face of the the earth until I&W surfaced from nowhere - no internet for me in those days! Then releasing my fav album of all time and Awake and thinking it was all over again  when Kevin left. I love Portnoy and his contribution to DT but i am not missing him.

Tell me about it! I remember how much we were loving Awake, and when in line to get DT tickets at Schnucks (back when they were a great place to get good tickets for shows), one of us picked up one of the new guitar magazines and it mentioned how Moore had left the band.  It was like a punch to the stomach, and right before we were getting tickets to see them for the first time!

[jonnybaxy]

I think it doesn't sound the same without portnoy, not saying I don't like it, just dont think its the same 

[MarkFitDT]

DT got back elements of their sound on ADTOE that they had lost on more recent albums. Porntoy (or DT) were introducing things onto recent albums which just werent DT (imho). And they didnt get rid of him - him quit!!

Totally agreed! The elements they lost were ones I wasn't wild about them bringing in in the first place, so I was happy to see those go bye-bye.  Dream Theater on A Dramatic Turn of Events sounded like the DT of the 90s.  Some might call that going backwards, but I prefer to look at it as them going back to their roots and rediscovering the sound and vibe that made them so great back in the 90s. 

For the record I was gutted when Moore left - I can remember thinking at the time I had waited from 89 (after hearing and loving WDADU) thinking DT had disappeared from the face of the the earth until I&W surfaced from nowhere - no internet for me in those days! Then releasing my fav album of all time and Awake and thinking it was all over again  when Kevin left. I love Portnoy and his contribution to DT but i am not missing him.

Tell me about it! I remember how much we were loving Awake, and when in line to get DT tickets at Schnucks (back when they were a great place to get good tickets for shows), one of us picked up one of the new guitar magazines and it mentioned how Moore had left the band.  It was like a punch to the stomach, and right before we were getting tickets to see them for the first time!

I subscribed to the DT "fan club" magazine at the time which was produced by a guy called Neil Elliott (i think!) over here in the UK. I still remember opening the envelope and seeing "Kevin No Moore". Like I said in my previous post back then there was no Internet (or at least not in today's form) so we felt a lot more detached from what was going on and it seemed like it had come out of nowhere.

[SeRoX]

I think it doesn't sound the same without portnoy, not saying I don't like it, just dont think its the same 

Fortunately it didn't go bad this time.

Moore left, they sounded a bit strange, nonetheless it was OK. Derek left, they sounded different. Jordan's first work SFAM with DT is his peak point, close with SDOIT but the others are kind of "meh" for me. Portnoy left, they sounded different again but after many years, finally it gives the feeling that they are back to their roots again. I would name Portnoy's left "a good change".

[BlobVanDam]

Easily MP.

WDADU is DT's worst album, and JLB is great, so CD wasn't a loss.
2 of their 3 albums with KM are by far my bottom DT albums, and they recorded a much better album after he left, so I'm glad he's gone.
When they got rid of DS, they got their best keyboardist and recorded their two best albums back to back, so that was an improvement (nothing against DS, as I love FII more than most people).

But when they got rid of MP, they recorded one of my least favourite DT albums, and I feel they lost elements of the DT sound. And no, that is not fanboy speak (contrary to popular belief, being remotely positive about MP does not make you a fanboy). MM is a better drummer, and a great fit for DT, I'm just underwhelmed with the one album they've recorded with him so far.

I couldnt disagree with this more (Moore!) - DT got back elements of their sound on ADTOE that they had lost on more recent albums. Porntoy (or DT) were introducing things onto recent albums which just werent DT (imho). And they didnt get rid of him - him quit!!

That first bit was a slip from rushing, since I was mentioning others who got fired.

To me if DT are incorporating it to that degree, it's a part of their sound. And who is anyone to say what should and shouldn't be part of their sound? The whole point of introducing elements is to expand their sound. Fair enough if you didn't like what they did, but those were part of DT's sound, and they're now gone.

ADTOE feels a bit sterile and flat to me, even the songs I really like. I miss the energy and elements MP brought to the music. Nothing on ADTOE gives me that same sense of energy or enthusiasm at all. It doesn't feel adventurous or lively to me like previous albums.

I don't know why some people can't just accept that some of us actually enjoyed what MP brought to the band, and miss those elements now that they're gone. These are all just opinions.

[KevShmev]

To me if DT are incorporating it to that degree, it's a part of their sound. And who is anyone to say what should and shouldn't be part of their sound? The whole point of introducing elements is to expand their sound. Fair enough if you didn't like what they did, but those were part of DT's sound, and they're now gone.

No one, but for those of us who didn't like some of those elements, if it took Portnoy leaving for them to leave, too, we are more than willing to take that package deal.

I look at it as a case of addition by subtraction!

I don't know why some people can't just accept that some of us actually enjoyed what MP brought to the band, and miss those elements now that they're gone. These are all just opinions.

Who said they won't accept you or anyone else thinking that?  Just because some might not agree doesn't mean that they don't think you have the right to feel that way.  You know better than that.

[MarkFitDT]

Easily MP.

WDADU is DT's worst album, and JLB is great, so CD wasn't a loss.
2 of their 3 albums with KM are by far my bottom DT albums, and they recorded a much better album after he left, so I'm glad he's gone.
When they got rid of DS, they got their best keyboardist and recorded their two best albums back to back, so that was an improvement (nothing against DS, as I love FII more than most people).

But when they got rid of MP, they recorded one of my least favourite DT albums, and I feel they lost elements of the DT sound. And no, that is not fanboy speak (contrary to popular belief, being remotely positive about MP does not make you a fanboy). MM is a better drummer, and a great fit for DT, I'm just underwhelmed with the one album they've recorded with him so far.

I couldnt disagree with this more (Moore!) - DT got back elements of their sound on ADTOE that they had lost on more recent albums. Porntoy (or DT) were introducing things onto recent albums which just werent DT (imho). And they didnt get rid of him - him quit!!

That first bit was a slip from rushing, since I was mentioning others who got fired.

To me if DT are incorporating it to that degree, it's a part of their sound. And who is anyone to say what should and shouldn't be part of their sound? The whole point of introducing elements is to expand their sound. Fair enough if you didn't like what they did, but those were part of DT's sound, and they're now gone.

ADTOE feels a bit sterile and flat to me, even the songs I really like. I miss the energy and elements MP brought to the music. Nothing on ADTOE gives me that same sense of energy or enthusiasm at all. It doesn't feel adventurous or lively to me like previous albums.

I don't know why some people can't just accept that some of us actually enjoyed what MP brought to the band, and miss those elements now that they're gone. These are all just opinions.

I take your points entirely and who are you to say that I dont/didnt enjoy what MP brought to the band??!! Images and Words is my fav album of all time. I dont dislike any of their albums - I love them all to one degree or another but for me the quality had dipped a little bit from Train of Thought through to Black Clouds even if they were still really good albums. And you are right, they are all opinions but I would wager I am not in the minority - not that this makes me necessarily right! 

[KevShmev]

Well said, MarkFitDT. 

[BlobVanDam]

I take your points entirely and who are you to say that I dont/didnt enjoy what MP brought to the band??!! Images and Words is my fav album of all time. I dont dislike any of their albums - I love them all to one degree or another but for me the quality had dipped a little bit from Train of Thought through to Black Clouds even if they were still really good albums. And you are right, they are all opinions but I would wager I am not in the minority - not that this makes me necessarily right! 

I was talking recent MP influences, since we're comparing ADTOE to the past couple of albums where people felt MP's influence caused a dip, so his work on albums like IaW isn't what I meant. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

[MarkFitDT]

I take your points entirely and who are you to say that I dont/didnt enjoy what MP brought to the band??!! Images and Words is my fav album of all time. I dont dislike any of their albums - I love them all to one degree or another but for me the quality had dipped a little bit from Train of Thought through to Black Clouds even if they were still really good albums. And you are right, they are all opinions but I would wager I am not in the minority - not that this makes me necessarily right! 

I was talking recent MP influences, since we're comparing ADTOE to the past couple of albums where people felt MP's influence caused a dip, so his work on albums like IaW isn't what I meant. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

no worries, it is all about opinions isnt it?! MP will always have a musical place in my heart but I think that the split was the right thing for DT. Thought there would be no way back when KevMo left as well but these things happen for a reason!

and for the record - Im with you on Scarred!! 

[BlobVanDam]

no worries, it is all about opinions isnt it?! MP will always have a musical place in my heart but I think that the split was the right thing for DT. Thought there would be no way back when KevMo left as well but these things happen for a reason!

and for the record - Im with you on Scarred!! 

I'm sure the split will turn out to be the right thing (obviously most feel that's already the case, I'm speaking only for me here), I just don't feel it yet based on ADTOE. It's nothing at all against the current lineup or against MM. I want the next album to blow me away and restore my faith.

And shhhh we're not mentioning that song. Although thank you for entirely proving a point I made in another thread.

[KevShmev]

and for the record - Im with you on Scarred!! 

Hahahahahaha, thank you for proving MY point.

[MarkFitDT]

and for the record - Im with you on Scarred!! 

Hahahahahaha, thank you for proving MY point.

lol, im keeping out of this now!! 

[BlobVanDam]

and for the record - Im with you on Scarred!! 

Hahahahahaha, thank you for proving MY point.

only you could try and twist that one. Pathetic. This proves my point that other people are discussing my opinion of that song more than I ever am, hence it being self perpetuating. This thread didn't even gave anything to do with the song, nor had I mentioned it.

[KevShmev]

The fact that you have it so backwards is extremely comical.  People are not calling you out for it because they want to be mean to little ole you; it's get mentioned by so many people because you talk about it so much.  It's like knowing that water is wet. Even in this thread https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=28562.msg1091186#msg1091186, hef (who is like the least confrontational person here) joked about your opinion on Scarred being so obvious because you never hide it.  It's not a big deal.  Just admit it and move on instead of acting like people are being so mean to you by calling you out for an opinion that you are very open about.  Sheesh.

[GasparXR]

As a few have said, they gained more after each person left, although obviously everyone since Charlie has played an important role.

As for ADTOE, I don't think it sounds like 90s DT. I think it sound like 10s DT. It has the SPIRIT of 90s DT, but it has more in common with late 00s DT, but also is unique-sounding, like pretty much every DT album.

[BlobVanDam]

This guy mentioned my opinion of scarred despite the fact I haven't mentioned it. And where was it mentioned recently? By you in the other thread unprovoked to bait me, which btw a mod told you to stop. As you are now entirely off topic to continue trolling me on this, I am done.     

[MarkFitDT]

This guy mentioned my opinion of scarred despite the fact I haven't mentioned it. And where was it mentioned recently? By you in the other thread unprovoked to bait me, which btw a mod told you to stop. As you are now entirely off topic to continue trolling me on this, I am done.   

I was actually agreeing with your opinion - I dont care much for Scarred either. I was using it as an example that although we disagreed on ADTOE etc. that we could agree on other things!! Didnt mean to start a flame war! sorry!

[SeRoX]

If each song had had its own thread there Scarred would've had the most pages by far. 

[ariich]

The fact that you have it so backwards is extremely comical.  People are not calling you out for it because they want to be mean to little ole you; it's get mentioned by so many people because you talk about it so much.  It's like knowing that water is wet. Even in this thread https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=28562.msg1091186#msg1091186, hef (who is like the least confrontational person here) joked about your opinion on Scarred being so obvious because you never hide it.  It's not a big deal.  Just admit it and move on instead of acting like people are being so mean to you by calling you out for an opinion that you are very open about.  Sheesh.

Kev, joking around with someone is fine if they are in on the joke. If they're not, it's essentially bullying. Blob has asked you and others to not always bring a certain point up, so how about just don't? I appreciate in this case it was a very minor reference, but even so.

Obviously if Blob mentions it, then of course have at it, that's the point of discussion. But clearly he feels like his reputation with that song means that he can't have a discussion about anything without it being bought up, and that's not really fair.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I appreciate that Blob does overreact as well as it's obviously something he feels sensitive about, which is a separate issue.

[DebraKadabra]

As a few have said, they gained more after each person left, although obviously everyone since Charlie has played an important role.

As for ADTOE, I don't think it sounds like 90s DT. I think it sound like 10s DT. It has the SPIRIT of 90s DT, but it has more in common with late 00s DT, but also is unique-sounding, like pretty much every DT album.

OH so much this.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

lol whenever there's someone with a MP avatar it means that fun's just down the block.

[jonnybaxy]

lol whenever there's someone with a MP avatar it means that fun's just down the block.

In what way? 

[?]

For all of you wondering how would 2000's Theater sound like with Kevin Moore - it wouldn't. In order to stay in DT, Kevin would have to stop being Kevin. Simple as that. And if you listen to the stuff he's done post-DT you realize there's not a lot of real Kevin Moore in Dream Theater. Maybe only the songs he wrote completely - music, lyrics and all - are a reflection of his true musical blueprint. And speaking of him setting the blueprint for prog keyboards:

Interviewer: However as a soloist, I think you are one of the best synth players out there. I thought your melodies were extremely interesting and very fluid. Why did that style loose its attraction, why don’t you express yourself in that way anymore?

K.- I’m trying to think why I did it before, I guess because that’s what it is with progressive music. That’s how you set yourself apart from other people or other bands, pop bands. It’s not by writing a better song, it’s by being flashy really. Doing really intricate, fast solos. Just as flashy as I could possibly do, I always wrote it, there weren’t that many times that I actually improvised maybe little parts live. Just because that was the progressive model and you’re supposed to do certain things and when it comes time for your solo you’d better do something that people are gonna like, when you play it live people should be looking in your direction. (laughs) But I never thought I was a great keyboard player, you know there are tons of people better than I am at that kind of stuff. I wasn’t into it like John Petrucci was, I was sort following those guys’ lead. I don’t know, it was fun but if you look at in terms of what it does for the music or the song, it doesn’t do much. I guess I’m more interested in the song and the textures and the mood of the song and how is the solo going to contribute to that? Plus it’s a different thing, progressive metal is supposed to be exciting and I don’t do stuff that I want to be exciting I don’t think. I think if anything is supposed to be exciting or adrenaline rush kind of stuff, it works more in the Dream Theater genre. Stuff I’m doing, “Ah, don’t play a solo there, just like get on with the song.”

(wow, I'm quoting a lot of interviews nowadays)

So it was all a "following the lead" type of thing. Sheesh, if you can get as good in anything as he is in playing intricate keyboards by just going through the motions... I'm going to fucking envy you 

On the other hand, I remember reading some old DT interview(s) where Kevin mentioned Jens Johansson and Rick Wakeman as his influences and in a Chroma Key intie from 2000 he said he used to rehearse scales all the time in his DT days:

2112: What is more important -- technical skill, or the emotion that one elicits when they play?

KM: The challenge for me is really song-writing. (pause) I think with people who get too involved with the technical stuff, people who practice six hours a day like I did when I was starting with Dream Theater, you get carried away with that. All you have is technique, and you can’t even write a song that anyone wants to listen to (chuckles). I still think I have a lot of work to do. I mean, I spent so much of my life not working that way, just concentrating on technical stuff. I think for someone who is just starting out, a good idea is to balance song-writing and technical stuff. If you’re going to practice for three hours doing scales, practice for three hours writing songs and recording, also.

(That advice in the last sentence is actually a great one!)
I'm pretty sure he enjoyed soloing but obviously he was the guy in the band who was least into the technical and improvisational side of music - he rarely took part in on-stage jams with the other members. Maybe that's the reason why the first DT albums are so balanced - they had one guy who was talented at his own instrument but at the same time kind of kept their "feet on the ground" on a technical level so that the music didn't get too wanky or shreddy, whatever. (not a jab at Jordan or any other member!)

[MoraWintersoul]

I'm pretty sure he enjoyed soloing but obviously he was the guy in the band who was least into the technical and improvisational side of music - he rarely took part in on-stage jams with the other members. Maybe that's the reason why the first DT albums are so balanced - they had one guy who was talented at his own instrument but at the same time kind of kept their "feet on the ground" on a technical level so that the music didn't get too wanky or shreddy, whatever. (not a jab at Jordan or any other member!)

Oh yeah, I remember reading that interview as well. Now, I'm going to try to respond to the point you made - and maybe I'm making this judgment I'm about to make because I'm generally not "sensitive" to that - if I'm listening to a solo, I'm enjoying it as a solo and I usually won't complain about the length or the content/speed of it since my saturation point is generally not that easy to reach, not even with a band such as Dream Theater.

So. In my book IAW doesn't lack long solo sections when compared to the Rudess albums. But there was definitely a change in content that even my ears can detect if we compare the Moore era to the Rudess era and the reason is Jordan's famed compatibility with John. It's two-sided - we get some real great content from their musical chemistry, but they also lack the ability to edit each other. If you know what I mean. I think the change was brought with Jordan's addition not because of something that Moore was lacking - since he was fine with doing those solos while he was fine with being in the band, it was something that the music demanded and it was probably fun in that period, like you said - but because of something Jordan has in abundance, he's on the same mental page as JP when it comes to music and it shows.