who was the biggest loss to DT

[DebraKadabra]

I voted Kevin Merrrr

That never gets old.

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

Portnoy.

People attribute the glory of the early albums to Kev, but I don't think he really deserves the credit for it, not even 20% of the credit.

You are really giving him that little credit for basically creating the blueprint for how to play keyboards in a subgenre the band all but created (or at least took to the next level)?

Of course I'm kidding. Kevin Moore is the greatest human being that ever lived.

I don't know if you or Blob takes more crap for their opinions on DT.  I love watching Kev fight with you though, so continue to put your controversial opinions out there.

[KevShmev]

 

Who's fighting?  Discussions and/or disagreements do not automatically equal fighting. 

[Madman Shepherd]

I refuse to vote for any of them, because to be honest, I am perfectly fine with the way DT are right now. The strongest case could be made for Kevin Moore, but had Kevin Moore not left, JR never would have joined in. Imagine SFAM and SDOIT with Kevin Moore. Moreover, imagine DT with Kevin Moore, who is not interested in the musical direction the rest of the band is headed.

You summed up my thoughts exactly. 

[BlobVanDam]

Easily MP.

WDADU is DT's worst album, and JLB is great, so CD wasn't a loss.
2 of their 3 albums with KM are by far my bottom DT albums, and they recorded a much better album after he left, so I'm glad he's gone.
When they got rid of DS, they got their best keyboardist and recorded their two best albums back to back, so that was an improvement (nothing against DS, as I love FII more than most people).

But when they got rid of MP, they recorded one of my least favourite DT albums, and I feel they lost elements of the DT sound. And no, that is not fanboy speak (contrary to popular belief, being remotely positive about MP does not make you a fanboy). MM is a better drummer, and a great fit for DT, I'm just underwhelmed with the one album they've recorded with him so far.

[Ħ]

But when they got rid of MP, they recorded one of my least favourite DT albums, and I feel they lost elements of the DT sound.

Wow, you too? I thought I was the only one that thought something was off with ADTOE.

[BlobVanDam]

But when they got rid of MP, they recorded one of my least favourite DT albums, and I feel they lost elements of the DT sound.

Wow, you too? I thought I was the only one that thought something was off with ADTOE.

We are but a tiny minority on DTF, but there are a small group of us hiding in caves and shadows, surviving off whatever moss we can scavenge off the rocks, waiting for the day when we will rise up and be counted. Stand strong and unite!

[YtseCullen]

  well done on that last bit blob

[wolven74]

I refuse to vote for any of them, because to be honest, I am perfectly fine with the way DT are right now. The strongest case could be made for Kevin Moore, but had Kevin Moore not left, JR never would have joined in. Imagine SFAM and SDOIT with Kevin Moore. Moreover, imagine DT with Kevin Moore, who is not interested in the musical direction the rest of the band is headed.

I agree with the sentiment that voting here is pointless. The band is the best its been in 20 years in the current lineup. If I were forced to say which member's leaving had the most impact emotionally, I'd say MP. But I think the writing, the energy, and the overall outlook of the band with the current lineup is perfect.

[robwebster]

When Kevin Moore left, he was just one unit out of five. A very strong one of a very strong five, in an era when the entire band were contributing and collaborating, but the impact of his departure was no more and no less than the impact of any other member's would've been at the time. If any of the five - bar, perhaps, James LaBrie, who was still kind of the new boy - had left at that point, they'd be remembered just as fondly and pestered just as relentlessly, I'm sure.

When Mike Portnoy left, it was at a stage where he'd kind of rebuilt the band in his image, to an extent. To a very mild extent - he wasn't the (tyrant / pulsating heart) that his (critics / superfans) tend to insist - but he was in control of the setlists, the arrangement, publicity, merchandise, he headed up the artwork, he masterminded concepts and lyrics, he was one two producers with executive control, he was a director, he edited DVDs, and he was pretty much the sole proprietor of Ytse Jam Records. That's a hell of a CV.

The band have moved on admirably, as they did from losing Kevin Moore, and I honestly think they're the best kind of unit they've ever been. Petrucci, as a showrunner, is much more my taste, and I think there are more voices in the melting pot than there were at the end of Mike Portnoy's era, with many of them saying brand new things. John Myung was described as withdrawn, and Jordan Rudess something of a hired gun... the band's more of a fivesome than in the Mike Portnoy era, with less bickering than in the Kevin Moore era. The shake-ups have done every party good, and I agree with the sentiment that neither loss was truly a loss.. Jordan Rudess was always more the band's kind of keyboardist, everyone's got a much louder voice now, if Mike Portnoy keeps releasing music as brilliant as Flying Colors he'll have the big-name free-wheelin' genre-to-genre career he dreamed of, and Kevin Moore gets to mess about with synthesisers in Turkey. It's win-win-win.

But Mike Portnoy was the biggest chunk out of the band. It's the difference between losing a writer and a showrunner. You can hire a new writer, and they did. Twice. Replacing a showrunner is a far more complicated task. Thank god they knew what they were doing!

[Pols Voice]

Kevin Moore. I feel like he has a kind of serious brooding artist persona that added an air of mystery to the band. I really enjoy his keys and lyrics. Rudess is great too, of course, and ADTOE has some of his best work.

[Rattlehead]

But when they got rid of MP, they recorded one of my least favourite DT albums, and I feel they lost elements of the DT sound.

Wow, you too? I thought I was the only one that thought something was off with ADTOE.

We are but a tiny minority on DTF, but there are a small group of us hiding in caves and shadows, surviving off whatever moss we can scavenge off the rocks, waiting for the day when we will rise up and be counted. Stand strong and unite!

Yeah I feel the same... I think ADToE is good but not nearly as good as some here make it out to be. Just my opinion... but yeah I voted MP, easily. For the same reasons too... I think they definitely lost key elements of the DT sound and regardless of how good MM is.

[?]

Definitely Kevin Moore. He played on my 2 favorite DT albums (Awake and I&W) and WD&DU is pretty high on my list as well. I'm not saying he was the heart and soul of DT but they lost something when he left, I miss his playing and songwriting. KM didn't have the same chops as his successors but I love his melodic and memorable solos and although technical and complex instrumentation is a huge part of DT, it has sometimes gone too over the top for my taste on some of the albums without him. But fortunately both DT and Kevin have continued to put out (mostly) quality releases even after going separate ways.

[Mladen]

Can I go with nobody?

They've managed to recover from every departure, kept moving forward and actually progressed.

[BlobVanDam]

But when they got rid of MP, they recorded one of my least favourite DT albums, and I feel they lost elements of the DT sound.

Wow, you too? I thought I was the only one that thought something was off with ADTOE.

We are but a tiny minority on DTF, but there are a small group of us hiding in caves and shadows, surviving off whatever moss we can scavenge off the rocks, waiting for the day when we will rise up and be counted. Stand strong and unite!

Yeah I feel the same... I think ADToE is good but not nearly as good as some here make it out to be. Just my opinion... but yeah I voted MP, easily. For the same reasons too... I think they definitely lost key elements of the DT sound and regardless of how good MM is.

Don't get me wrong, I think ADTOE is good too, but I agree that I don't think it's as good as people make it out to be. And of course that's just my opinion too.

[jsem]

Kevin Moore.

[Nekov]

The obvious choice

[Lowdz]

But when they got rid of MP, they recorded one of my least favourite DT albums, and I feel they lost elements of the DT sound.

Wow, you too? I thought I was the only one that thought something was off with ADTOE.

We are but a tiny minority on DTF, but there are a small group of us hiding in caves and shadows, surviving off whatever moss we can scavenge off the rocks, waiting for the day when we will rise up and be counted. Stand strong and unite!

Yeah I feel the same... I think ADToE is good but not nearly as good as some here make it out to be. Just my opinion... but yeah I voted MP, easily. For the same reasons too... I think they definitely lost key elements of the DT sound and regardless of how good MM is.

Can any of you be precise about what you think was missing? Not having a go, just interested, but to me it sounds like DT. The drums are mixed lower than we're used to but other than that I don't see much different. Slightly more ballad-y material maybe, but then BC&SL had plenty when you count the ballad parts of the longer songs.

Voted KM because DT lost a very good lyricist, and I loved his keyboard work. And for me it's the one time the replacement wasn't an upgrade.

I get the other things MP did but really what's important to me is the music, and that didn't change for the worse with the departure of MP.  If anything the absence of MP's more extreme metal leanings is only a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

[MoraWintersoul]

But when they got rid of MP, they recorded one of my least favourite DT albums, and I feel they lost elements of the DT sound.

Wow, you too? I thought I was the only one that thought something was off with ADTOE.

We are but a tiny minority on DTF, but there are a small group of us hiding in caves and shadows, surviving off whatever moss we can scavenge off the rocks, waiting for the day when we will rise up and be counted. Stand strong and unite!

*joins* though, they were losing far greater parts of the DT sound with the direction Portnoy was steering them in before ADTOE.

For all of you wondering how would 2000's Theater sound like with Kevin Moore - it wouldn't. In order to stay in DT, Kevin would have to stop being Kevin. Simple as that. And if you listen to the stuff he's done post-DT you realize there's not a lot of real Kevin Moore in Dream Theater. Maybe only the songs he wrote completely - music, lyrics and all - are a reflection of his true musical blueprint. And speaking of him setting the blueprint for prog keyboards:

Interviewer: However as a soloist, I think you are one of the best synth players out there. I thought your melodies were extremely interesting and very fluid. Why did that style loose its attraction, why don't you express yourself in that way anymore?

K.- I'm trying to think why I did it before, I guess because that's what it is with progressive music. That's how you set yourself apart from other people or other bands, pop bands. It's not by writing a better song, it's by being flashy really. Doing really intricate, fast solos. Just as flashy as I could possibly do, I always wrote it, there weren't that many times that I actually improvised maybe little parts live. Just because that was the progressive model and you're supposed to do certain things and when it comes time for your solo you'd better do something that people are gonna like, when you play it live people should be looking in your direction. (laughs) But I never thought I was a great keyboard player, you know there are tons of people better than I am at that kind of stuff. I wasn't into it like John Petrucci was, I was sort following those guys' lead. I don't know, it was fun but if you look at in terms of what it does for the music or the song, it doesn't do much. I guess I'm more interested in the song and the textures and the mood of the song and how is the solo going to contribute to that? Plus it's a different thing, progressive metal is supposed to be exciting and I don't do stuff that I want to be exciting I don't think. I think if anything is supposed to be exciting or adrenaline rush kind of stuff, it works more in the Dream Theater genre. Stuff I'm doing, "Ah, don't play a solo there, just like get on with the song."

(wow, I'm quoting a lot of interviews nowadays)

So it was all a "following the lead" type of thing. Sheesh, if you can get as good in anything as he is in playing intricate keyboards by just going through the motions... I'm going to fucking envy you 

[SeRoX]

I don't think it's OK to blame Mangini for his work for ADTOE if you don't find this album musically good enough. His musical contributing was very limited. He wasn't part of writing. It's not fair to compare his *first* work and Jordan's first work. We still don't know what Mangini could bring to the band.

[BlobVanDam]

I don't think it's OK to blame Mangini for his work for ADTOE if you don't find this album musically good enough. His musical contributing was very limited. He wasn't part of writing. It's not fair to compare his *first* work and Jordan's first work. We still don't know what Mangini could bring to the band.

I completely agree with you there, and I have said many times that I'm reserving solid judgement on this line-up until the next album with MM as a fully integrated member. There's no doubt they've developed hugely as a band after a couple of years of touring together, and I think that dynamic will bring new elements to the table.
But we do only have one DT album with MM, so unfortunately that's all we have to judge on when it comes to musical output.

[Jarzombek]

Mike Portnoy. Although ADToE is a good album, DT without Portnoy will never be the same.

[bobs23]

When Kevin Moore left, he was just one unit out of five. A very strong one of a very strong five, in an era when the entire band were contributing and collaborating, but the impact of his departure was no more and no less than the impact of any other member's would've been at the time. If any of the five - bar, perhaps, James LaBrie, who was still kind of the new boy - had left at that point, they'd be remembered just as fondly and pestered just as relentlessly, I'm sure.

When Mike Portnoy left, it was at a stage where he'd kind of rebuilt the band in his image, to an extent. To a very mild extent - he wasn't the (tyrant / pulsating heart) that his (critics / superfans) tend to insist - but he was in control of the setlists, the arrangement, publicity, merchandise, he headed up the artwork, he masterminded concepts and lyrics, he was one two producers with executive control, he was a director, he edited DVDs, and he was pretty much the sole proprietor of Ytse Jam Records. That's a hell of a CV.

The band have moved on admirably, as they did from losing Kevin Moore, and I honestly think they're the best kind of unit they've ever been. Petrucci, as a showrunner, is much more my taste, and I think there are more voices in the melting pot than there were at the end of Mike Portnoy's era, with many of them saying brand new things. John Myung was described as withdrawn, and Jordan Rudess something of a hired gun... the band's more of a fivesome than in the Mike Portnoy era, with less bickering than in the Kevin Moore era. The shake-ups have done every party good, and I agree with the sentiment that neither loss was truly a loss.. Jordan Rudess was always more the band's kind of keyboardist, everyone's got a much louder voice now, if Mike Portnoy keeps releasing music as brilliant as Flying Colors he'll have the big-name free-wheelin' genre-to-genre career he dreamed of, and Kevin Moore gets to mess about with synthesisers in Turkey. It's win-win-win.

But Mike Portnoy was the biggest chunk out of the band. It's the difference between losing a writer and a showrunner. You can hire a new writer, and they did. Twice. Replacing a showrunner is a far more complicated task. Thank god they knew what they were doing!

THIS, for me. Very well said.

MM is a much more technical drummer than MP, but IMO he is just a rhythm machine. MP has way more feel and groove, and he was a big part of DT's stage excitement. On this tour I have found that the technical performance to be at least the standard as before, but they have become very boring on stage.
As far as MP's dominance within the band, there are four other members of the band that either could have stepped up and chipped in or given veto to his ideas. MP knew the band was getting stale, and knew it was time for a shake up. I don't think the end result was what was envisioned, but we would not have gotten ADTOE as it is with MP in the band. I feel the future of the band as questionable with MP out, just as much as if JP were to leave. These two people are the driving force of the band. JP may be the heart, but MP is the soul. I find it difficult to have one without the other.

Again my opinion, not fact.

[Perpetual Change]

Hah, wow. Chris Collins has more votes than Charlie DOminici 

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

Who's fighting?  Discussions and/or disagreements do not automatically equal fighting. 

Only joking here, carry on.

[TheGreatPretender]

Mike Portnoy. Although ADToE is a good album, DT without Portnoy will never be the same.

To be fair, the way Portnoy's musical tastes were affecting DT, WITH Portnoy, it would never be the same either.

[chrisbDTM]

Mike Portnoy. Although ADToE is a good album, DT without Portnoy will never be the same.

never got this saying. of course its not the same, one human was replaced by a comletely different one. DT wasnt the same after each lineup change.


drums are easily replaceable, but DT was very lucky to always bring in great replacements for each member who left. i cant imagine JR leaving, it would be hard to find someone who can do what he does. and JP leaving would decimate the band entirely

[SeRoX]

Hah, wow. Chris Collins has more votes than Charlie DOminici 

Your Majesty! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[KevShmev]

As far as MP's dominance within the band, there are four other members of the band that either could have stepped up and chipped in or given veto to his ideas. 

That is often easier said than done, especially when Portnoy was someone who, by his own admission, would argue and talk until he got his way every single time.  After a while, you tend to just go with the flow when you are dealing with a personality like that.  It becomes easier than engaging in another long argument or something with someone who will always outlast you with their will.  Besides, I doubt the four were always totally opposed to all of his ideas; I doubt it was like that at all.  And I doubt anyone ever had the balls to tell him that he should stop singing lead vocal lines on studio albums, and that to me is the greatest thing about post-Portnoy Dream Theater..it's like it was in the early days again, with JLB pretty much doing all of the vocals, which is the way it should be, IMO.

[TheGreatPretender]

it's like it was in the early days again, with JLB pretty much doing all of the vocals, which is the way it should be, IMO.

Oh so many times this.

[Dreamer81]

I refuse to vote for any of them, because to be honest, I am perfectly fine with the way DT are right now. The strongest case could be made for Kevin Moore, but had Kevin Moore not left, JR never would have joined in. Imagine SFAM and SDOIT with Kevin Moore. Moreover, imagine DT with Kevin Moore, who is not interested in the musical direction the rest of the band is headed.

This and LOL at Mp being the main writer,  he never was...

[chrisbDTM]

i would classify MP as a big arranger. more like "play that riff twice and maybe add a heavy riff after"

then JP/JR would actually write the parts

[DTFan0789]

Dream Theater has no losses. Only WINNINGS.

[Perpetual Change]

i would classify MP as a big arranger. more like "play that riff twice and maybe add a heavy riff after"

then JP/JR would actually write the parts

The other way, really. It's more like they'd jam stuff out and come up with a bunch of ideas, and MP would play a big role in organizing them in terms of what should go where. You gotta check out the Whirldwing Making Of to see it.

[chrisbDTM]

i would classify MP as a big arranger. more like "play that riff twice and maybe add a heavy riff after"

then JP/JR would actually write the parts

The other way, really. It's more like they'd jam stuff out and come up with a bunch of ideas, and MP would play a big role in organizing them in terms of what should go where. You gotta check out the Whirldwing Making Of to see it.

isnt that what i said? JP/JR would have to write the riff to play it, and MP edited/arranged them accordingly