Still a HUGE DT fan but...............

[Bruins]

You guys should really rename this forum I Hate Mike Portnoy.org and call it a day. I agree with the poster that cant believe the lack of respect after all he has done is mind boggling. The dude ate, slept and breathed DT for 25+years and now MM is the savior of the band? Come on!!! I wish I had rose colored glasses like you guys that the new CD and the live show with the new line up is so great but I don't see it or hear it.

You really can't grasp the idea that Portnoy controlling the group with an iron fist is why the band's personal relationships, by Portnoy's own admission, weren't the same in his final months as a member of the band?  Bands where members are equal or near-equal always function better in the long run.  Don't believe me?  Look it up.  It is no surprise that Portnoy is such a big fan of Roger Waters, who bludgeoned his band into near ruins with his controlling ways (although Waters' controlling ways were FAR MORE destructive than Portnoy's were).

Sure, he ate, slept and breathed Dream Theater, but just because Portnoy publicly patted himself on the back non-stop for every little thing he did for the band doesn't mean that the other guys just stood back and let him do everything while they did nothing. 

This idea that some have that Portnoy was more responsibly for DT's success and greatness than anyone else is ludicrous.  And that is not taking anything away from him; his role as the band leader, drummer and music arranger was integral. 

But the last year has shown that Portnoy, by and large, was replaceable.  John Petrucci, on the other hand, is not.

Sorry man, totally disagree with a  few of your points...I have looked up band members that were equals and most of them didn't last 25+ years. I think most would agree that alot of of DT success came from the way MP was...he was the one that fought the record executives to give the band more freedom and to do what they do. He was the one that interacted with fans more so than other members....you even contradicted your point in your post.

"This idea that some have that Portnoy was more responsibly for DT's success and greatness than anyone else is ludicrous.  And that is not taking anything away from him; his role as the band leader, drummer and music arranger was integral."

WHAT???

How do you know that JP is not replacable? You dont think a Paul Gilbert could come in and play the same notes?

[El Barto]

Paul Gilbert could probably come in and play the same notes, but the character of the band would be completely different; just like with Mangini.  Whether or not that would be an improvement is open to debate.  I don't think it would be, and I don't think it was with Mangini.  Still, others might be happier with a different vibe.

[Bruins]

Barto we are on the same page.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I agree that being a DT fan is little less fun nowadays... but only because I can't watch a damn YouTube video without 400 inane arguments about Portnoy vs. Mangini. Portnoy's departure has been so insanely blown out of proportion. Dream Theater still sounds like Dream Theater. Unfortunately, you seem to find Portnoy's personality more "exciting" than Dream Theater's music.

This.

[BlobVanDam]

But the last year has shown that Portnoy, by and large, was replaceable.  John Petrucci, on the other hand, is not.

I'm not sure about that.  Not that JP is irreplaceable, but that MP was.  They found a better drummer than MP, but that doesn't mean that they successfully replaced him; they didn't.  I'm sure they could find a guitarist that's fundamentally better than JP, but the quality of the band would take a significant hit, just like it has now.  Quite frankly, this isn't as good a band as it was 2 years ago.  The new album was stronger as a whole than their last four, but I don't think any of it is as good as their best work over that same span.  As a live act, I'd down grade them considerably.  I won't call them boring, but there's not really anything exciting about them, either. 

You're my age.  Ever see Boston?  Same deal. 

In terms of studio albums, I agree with this for now. As it was their first out of the gate without Portnoy, and they had yet to integrate MM, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt until I hear the next album with MM as a full member, as ADTOE wasn't bad by any means, but just lacking.
I think they've mostly managed to fill in the blanks without MP live, so hopefully that will show through on the next album.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

The people complaining about the live performances must be talking about MP's stage presence and methods of interacting with the fans (inviting them on stage), which I too liked. They certainly aren't talking about any or one of the musical aspects of the new performances since the band sounds undeniably tighter and better than ever before.

[BlobVanDam]

The people complaining about the live performances must be talking about MP's stage presence and methods of interacting with the fans (inviting them on stage), which I too liked. They certainly aren't talking about any or one of the musical aspects of the new performances since the band sounds undeniably tighter and better than ever before.

Tighter yes, but better is a subjective term. You should see El Barto's posts in the live MM/MP poll thread, as he explains it pretty well. Not saying I 100% agree with him, but he makes several points on the matter.

[El Barto]

Yeah, I agree that they're certainly tighter.  Unfortunately that came at the expense of a great deal of excitement and spontaneity.  If that's a tradeoff people value, then so be it.  My issue is that tightness wasn't really an area they were ever lacking in, so from my perspective it's a great loss with little gain. 

[KevShmev]

Sorry man, totally disagree with a  few of your points...I have looked up band members that were equals and most of them didn't last 25+ years. I think most would agree that alot of of DT success came from the way MP was...he was the one that fought the record executives to give the band more freedom and to do what they do. He was the one that interacted with fans more so than other members....you even contradicted your point in your post.

"This idea that some have that Portnoy was more responsibly for DT's success and greatness than anyone else is ludicrous.  And that is not taking anything away from him; his role as the band leader, drummer and music arranger was integral."

WHAT???

That is not a contradiction by any stretch of the imagination.  Someone can think Portnoy was important to the band without thinking they were more important than everyone else, which is pretty much what I said.

How do you know that JP is not replacable? You dont think a Paul Gilbert could come in and play the same notes?

  Yeah, let me know when Paul Gilbert can write all of those songs that John Petrucci has written or co-written over the years.  The fact that you think someone being replaceable comes down to someone else merely being able to play the notes shows me that your thinking is, um, skewed.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

The people complaining about the live performances must be talking about MP's stage presence and methods of interacting with the fans (inviting them on stage), which I too liked. They certainly aren't talking about any or one of the musical aspects of the new performances since the band sounds undeniably tighter and better than ever before.

Tighter yes, but better is a subjective term. You should see El Barto's posts in the live MM/MP poll thread, as he explains it pretty well. Not saying I 100% agree with him, but he makes several points on the matter.

I don't disagree with much of what he said in that post. I just don't think Portnoy is a "better drummer for DT." I happen to be one of those who just as much enjoys the subtlety and nuance in Mangini's playing as I do in Petrucci's playing, or in anyone else's for that matter. I don't think that in Dream Theater some instrumentalists command a certain type of listening experience while others command a completely different one. The instrumentalists are some of the best in the world at their respective instruments and styles and DT's music is a product of that. Furthermore they (the instrumentalists) are the focal point of DT and they always invite us to listen to subtlety and nuance that's in their music; that is not to say they don't have tunes that invite us to kick back and enjoy or even "rock out" to certain moments. But the reality of it is that DT is a BAND (not just 1 or 2 of a group of 5, rather they are one big unit) that creates music for listening and the drumming component is no exception. Some bands are about raw energy (and that's great and I fully appreciate that type of musical experience) and some bands are about the precision, technique, subtlety, nuance and the art. Dream Theater is deeply seated in the latter category and always has been.

Actually, I'm quite surprised that poster likened this situation to DS and JR and used the term "rock out" as though you couldn't rock out just as well to MM. An integral part of music that makes us want to "rock out" is feel and in that department MM has a huge edge over MP and many rock drummers. Maybe by "rock out" he meant watching something that visually connected with him? When I went to this concert and listened to and saw MM play with the band, I heard and FELT a distinct difference in the songs. He played MP's parts effortlessly really and brought them to a further dimension of musicality (feel). Like I said, I'm not too sure what he was getting at with "rock out" and maybe I'm way off with respect to his point.

I agree that DT now does not have one huge commanding personality, but MM does actually have great stage presence and the band appeared to be reenergized; maybe it's due to the sound and the new production. Hell, even Myung was moving around a lot. MM sure as hell rocked out when I saw him and he sure as hell seems to have been rocking out in the amateur footage from other shows. I think what you're observing is that people are missing MP the rockstar no doubt, but MP the person. He placed a very deep fingerprint into this band and MM said from the beginning that he (MM) was not trying to replace MP in the things that he brought. So if anyone is expecting MM to start inviting fans onstage or to play certain sections of songs standing up, he can just forget about it. I don't think he needs to do those things to make this band better than it was before. LaBrie's stage presence is fine given his role in many of the songs. DT chose a certain vocal type when they picked him and a certain type of stage presence comes with a certain vocal style and role.

I fully appreciate what MM is bringing to this musically. He's all around an elite musician and it's immediately perceivable when you see them live. The band is unquestionably at a new level, musically, and I love MP and I love his drum parts, and I dig Adrenaline Mob, but the fact is that the band just sounds better now than it has in years. It's just a different experience now that we haven't been used to. Some people just need time to let it in, some will refuse to let it in, and some people like me couldn't be happier about it.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Yeah, I agree that they're certainly tighter.  Unfortunately that came at the expense of a great deal of excitement and spontaneity.  If that's a tradeoff people value, then so be it.  My issue is that tightness wasn't really an area they were ever lacking in, so from my perspective it's a great loss with little gain.

Try listening harder. It's a HUGE gain. A drummer can COMPLETELY transform the sound of a band. If you didn't already know that, go re-watch the drum auditions.

[serrano]

Well, MM is clearly not a frontman and he does not intent to be one. What i have seen on the 2 live shows i have seen this tour is that JP is connecting more with the audience, MM is pure joy on stage, JR is fun to watch with his new keyboard stand and James is a the clear frontman now. JMX is being JMX as always, but I like it that way  .

Of course I miss MP somehow, but it does not mean that they are losing something in their shows, well my opinion might be biased by the fact, that most of the time I would be staring at JP  .

The shows i have seen in this tour would be up with the best DT shows i have seen since '93.

[El Barto]

Yeah, I agree that they're certainly tighter.  Unfortunately that came at the expense of a great deal of excitement and spontaneity.  If that's a tradeoff people value, then so be it.  My issue is that tightness wasn't really an area they were ever lacking in, so from my perspective it's a great loss with little gain.

Try listening harder. It's a HUGE gain. A drummer can COMPLETELY transform the sound of a band. If you didn't already know that, go re-watch the drum auditions.

It's not a matter of listening harder.  I fully appreciate what MM has brought to the band, and like I said, I'm perfectly happy with the new album.  I'm merely weighing it against what was lost in the process, and I think it was a significant loss, as the OP suggested.  Particularly since they were still an excellent band before hand.  It's like taking your BMW M5 and ripping out the carpet, passenger seats, air conditioning, and stereo so you can get an extra 5mph out of it.  I don't think the gain was worth the loss.

I don't think that in Dream Theater some instrumentalists command a certain type of listening experience while others command a completely different one. The instrumentalists are some of the best in the world at their respective instruments and styles and DT's music is a product of that. Furthermore they (the instrumentalists) are the focal point of DT and they always invite us to listen to subtlety and nuance that's in their music; that is not to say they don't have tunes that invite us to kick back and enjoy or even "rock out" to certain moments. But the reality of it is that DT is a BAND (not just 1 or 2 of a group of 5, rather they are one big unit) that creates music for listening and the drumming component is no exception. Some bands are about raw energy (and that's great and I fully appreciate that type of musical experience) and some bands are about the precision, technique, subtlety, nuance and the art. Dream Theater is deeply seated in the latter category and always has been.

I agree, but it needn't be an all or nothing situation.  I was very fortunate to see one of the recent shows from the front row, where I got to take in a tremendous amount of subtlety and nuance.  Those guys are damned fascinating to watch from up close.  Yet there's more to a concert than a flawless demonstration of technique.  There's room for that raw energy as well as the artistry.  That's something that a lot of bands are lacking nowadays, and I find it disappointing.  In DT's case, MP was the one who could infuse some of that raw energy into their performances, and that's a pretty big loss in my book.  Without that, I'd just as soon watch the show on DVD.  I'd get to take in more of the details, and it'd damn sure sound better.

[hefdaddy42]

EB, I just don't see what you're getting at.  Mind you, I haven't been to a show since MM joined, but I've seen plenty of footage on youtube.  It seems like MP used to act goofy and try to interact with the crowd, and the other 4 stood there and played/sang.  What I see now is that 4 of the 5 are a lot more engaged with the crowd and more present in the moment than they used to be.

I don't understand what you mean about a lack of spontaneity.  They've never been a band for a great deal of spontaneity in the first place.  If they've lost what little they had, that would be a neglible loss.

The only downside I see is the loss of rotating setlists, but personally I never get to go to multiple shows anyway, so that's no big loss.  Yes, it was neat, but the shows are apparently much better now as a total package.  I don't see the big deal.

My 2 cents.

[El Barto]

I believe we had this discussion before when discussing click tracks.  In the past there were minor variations in how they played things.  Their focus now seems to be to make sure every rendition of a song is precisely the same.  I think that's something that changed with the loss of a bandleader, and it's a loss in my book.

I don't understand what you mean about a lack of spontaneity.  They've never been a band for a great deal of spontaneity in the first place.  If they've lost what little they had, that would be a neglible loss.

On the contrary, if you only had little, then losing any is a huge loss if it's something to be valued at all. Five minus 3 is much more significant than 20 minus 3.

EB, I just don't see what you're getting at.  Mind you, I haven't been to a show since MM joined, but I've seen plenty of footage on youtube.  It seems like MP used to act goofy and try to interact with the crowd, and the other 4 stood there and played/sang.  What I see now is that 4 of the 5 are a lot more engaged with the crowd and more present in the moment than they used to be.

I personally didn't see this huge influx of energy that people keep referring to.  I saw them three nights in a row, and they really didn't seem too different than any of the other times I saw them.  JM moved around a bit more, and seemed to play off of MM from time to time when Mangini would make goofy faces at him.  Honestly, they all played off of MP previously.  I'll agree that they're tighter now, but I don't but into the notion that they're all magically energized.

The only downside I see is the loss of rotating setlists, but personally I never get to go to multiple shows anyway, so that's no big loss.  Yes, it was neat, but the shows are apparently much better now as a total package.  I don't see the big deal.

The rotating setlists thing is bigger than people make it out to be.  It's more than just playing a few different songs each night.  It's occasionally playing different songs differently.  There were long and short versions of some songs.  There were covers that they'd whip out. There were reworkings of old songs.  This all goes back to the spontaneity that you didn't see before.  When they played Solitary Shell,  you were never quite sure what they were going to do with it.  Maybe they come out an play the 18 minute blow out version of it.

I figure plenty of people here will not care about seeing MP bang on the shells with his sticks.  Personally,  I'd much rather see a one off performance over the precision version that will always run off at 5:43 like clockwork.  Sadly,  I think that this is something we won't be seeing anymore.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

You do realize that in instrumental bands or bands that are instrumentally driven, having a front man who is not a singer (unless it's a guitar player and it's his band) is very unusual, right? I don't see why it matters so much to your experience, unless you really just like MP, which a lot of people do (including me).

When I saw the Aristocrats it never occurred to me that they don't have one guy who is trying to stick out from the others. There are countless other instrumental bands I've seen that don't have one instrumentalist trying to be a front man out of the group. It's not always great in every aspect, you know. There are plenty of things about MP's live presence that people DIDN'T like as you can see.

Even though DT isn't an instrumental only band, the same thing applies. This isn't (old) Guns N Roses, you know. I don't think anything is wrong with JLB's stage presence in the context of this band. He engages the crowd just fine. If there's going to be a front man, I'd rather it come from the vocalist, than have one of the instrumentalists try to stick out.

I'd trade MM's extra musicianship, which is not, as you think merely 5mph more, over MP's extra stage presence any day of the week, if I had to make a choice.


By the way I think you're overblowing the extra stage presence (MM does have great presence), and undervaluing the difference in sound. A different drummer changes everything in a band in terms of sound and feel.

[KevShmev]

  Some people just need time to let it in, some will refuse to let it in, and some people like me couldn't be happier about it.

I think this is a great point.  Ultimately, some fans will refuse to admit that the band is as good or better now(see below) out of fear or being branded disloyal to Mike Portnoy.  Not referring to anyone specifically, but there are definitely fans like that.  That happens any time a major band member leaves a band.  There will always be fans who convince themselves that it will never be the same or as good without said member, and no matter what happens, they will stick to that.  Which is a shame.

And when I say better now above, I mean better than they had been in recent years.  They will never touch the consistency and greatness of the 1992-2002 era (their peak), but it is nice to see them back making a truly great record.  I was convinced that we would never get another truly great record out of them, one that was consistently great from start to finish, but thanks to the shakeup, we got one. 

[El Barto]

A couple of points: my loyalty to Portnoy is pretty much zero.  I've actually been quite disappointed with the way he's handled this whole thing.  And while I'm quite fond of his drum work, I'm far to open minded to let it's absence dictate my judgment.  Furthermore, when he first announced his departure, I was one of the first people to call it a fantastic development.  My prediction was that we'd get better music from both camps.  DT held up their end of that, and while I don't care for AM, I have high hopes for Flying Colors and his upcoming power trio.  The opinion I'm throwing out now is based solely on having seen them three times on their last tour.  They're quite simply not as exciting as they used to be, for a variety of reasons, all of which are related to losing MP.

I'd trade MM's extra musicianship, which is not, as you think merely 5mph more, over MP's extra stage presence any day of the week, if I had to make a choice.


By the way I think you're overblowing the extra stage presence (MM does have great presence), and undervaluing the difference in sound. A different drummer changes everything in a band in terms of sound and feel.

And here is where the debate probably ends.  We've now boiled it down to preferences and qualitative values, and we'll likely not be moving past that.  All I can say is that I personally prefer a more rounded show, that provides both excitement and musicianship.  DT has made a significant swing from being halfway balanced to being all about precision, and that's not really my bag.  I probably spent about a grand catching three shows last time around, and given the new lineup, I was thrilled to do it.  Been there, done that.  Next time around I'd put the value right at one $59 ticket and a parking pass.

[KevShmev]

I hear ya.  I guess I just don't get pledging such loyalty to one man to where you almost give up on the band when that one guy leaves.  Heck, I was concerned as hell when Neal Morse left Spock's Beard in 2002 (and he was far more important and integral to SB than Portnoy was to DT, being that he was THE songwriter AND voice of Spock's), but Feel Euphoria was a helluva surprise in the summer of 2003.  It was like, wow, these guys CAN do it without him.  At least for one album (and then later for a second with X).  Don't get me wrong, I have favorite members of my favorite bands, but ultimately I am always a bigger fan of the band itself than I am of one guy.  But hey, that's me.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

A couple of points: my loyalty to Portnoy is pretty much zero.  I've actually been quite disappointed with the way he's handled this whole thing.  And while I'm quite fond of his drum work, I'm far to open minded to let it's absence dictate my judgment.  Furthermore, when he first announced his departure, I was one of the first people to call it a fantastic development.  My prediction was that we'd get better music from both camps.  DT held up their end of that, and while I don't care for AM, I have high hopes for Flying Colors and his upcoming power trio.  The opinion I'm throwing out now is based solely on having seen them three times on their last tour.  They're quite simply not as exciting as they used to be, for a variety of reasons, all of which are related to losing MP.

I'd trade MM's extra musicianship, which is not, as you think merely 5mph more, over MP's extra stage presence any day of the week, if I had to make a choice.


By the way I think you're overblowing the extra stage presence (MM does have great presence), and undervaluing the difference in sound. A different drummer changes everything in a band in terms of sound and feel.

And here is where the debate probably ends.  We've now boiled it down to preferences and qualitative values, and we'll likely not be moving past that.  All I can say is that I personally prefer a more rounded show, that provides both excitement and musicianship.  DT has made a significant swing from being halfway balanced to being all about precision, and that's not really my bag.  I probably spent about a grand catching three shows last time around, and given the new lineup, I was thrilled to do it.  Been there, done that.  Next time around I'd put the value right at one $59 ticket and a parking pass.

I disagree that musicianship has increased at the expense of excitement. I find the visual aspects of the show to be much more exciting now actually due to the new production. I also think MM's drum solos are far better and far more exciting than MP's for the many reasons I listed on previous threads other times.

[As I Am]

And for the OP.  YOu may want to try the MP.com forum for a little more sympathy to your cause...   
I also have to wonder if you have actually SEEN them on tour in person for ADToE or are you basing your opinions on YouTubage? 

Yep. Three times...NJ, NY & Philadelphia! Any other questions?

[As I Am]

You guys should really rename this forum I Hate Mike Portnoy.org and call it a day. I agree with the poster that cant believe the lack of respect after all he has done is mind boggling. The dude ate, slept and breathed DT for 25+years and now MM is the savior of the band? Come on!!! I wish I had rose colored glasses like you guys that the new CD and the live show with the new line up is so great but I don't see it or hear it.

You really can't grasp the idea that Portnoy controlling the group with an iron fist is why the band's personal relationships, by Portnoy's own admission, weren't the same in his final months as a member of the band?  Bands where members are equal or near-equal always function better in the long run. 
Sure, he ate, slept and breathed Dream Theater, but just because Portnoy publicly patted himself on the back non-stop for every little thing he did for the band doesn't mean that the other guys just stood back and let him do everything while they did nothing. 
This idea that some have that Portnoy was more responsibly for DT's success and greatness than anyone else is ludicrous.  And that is not taking anything away from him; his role as the band leader, drummer and music arranger was integral. 

Don't know where you get your idea's from , but certainly NOT ME! I never once said MP was more important than any other DT member. I'm simply stating that "IMO", he is SORELY missed in the live setting and I just don't get the hatred for him here. Did he have faults? Sure. Was what went down the result of Mike's will? Sure. But that should NOT take away everything he did for the band and most importantly FANS OF THE BAND!

[El Barto]

I hear ya.  I guess I just don't get pledging such loyalty to one man to where you almost give up on the band when that one guy leaves.

I agree, but there's certainly none of that going on with me.  Hell, I was glad that he left.  In many ways I still am.  Like I've said, the studio side is somewhat improved in my book.  The live side took a pretty big hit.

[As I Am]

Yeah, I agree that they're certainly tighter.  Unfortunately that came at the expense of a great deal of excitement and spontaneity.  If that's a tradeoff people value, then so be it.  My issue is that tightness wasn't really an area they were ever lacking in, so from my perspective it's a great loss with little gain.

BINGO

DING DING DING...we have a winner folks!

[Orbert]

I just don't get the hatred for him here. Did he have faults? Sure. Was what went down the result of Mike's will? Sure. But that should NOT take away everything he did for the band and most importantly FANS OF THE BAND!

Not everyone here "hates" Mike, but if you can't understand why some do, then really, you're just not trying very hard.

He lied to everyone about his motives behind wanting the band to go on hiatus.  He lied about who said what, and when.  Statements from literally everyone else involved (members of both Dream Theater and Avenged Sevenfold) have borne this out.  Nobody likes being lied to.

He chose to leave, the band begged him to reconsider, but he left anyway.  Then, after the band had moved on, he asked to come back, and he has painted them as the villains for not them letting him come back.  Nobody likes a whiner, especially after it's clear what really happened.

He repeatedly made statements forcing fans to either side with him or with DT regarding the split, and repeatedly made statements designed to make DT look bad while he of course is an innocent victim.  Anyone who sides with him is a fan.  Anyone who sides with DT is a "fan".  Nobody likes being marginalized.

On his own forums, anything resembling fair and balanced discussion regarding the split was squelched.  Comments praising Mike remained, anything criticizing him or suggesting that the band was actually right were deleted.  Nobody likes watching what they consider to be well-constructed positions simply deleted without any explanation.  That represents time and effort spent on something with literally nothing to show.

Yes, he did a lot for the band in the past.  Yes, he is a very talented drummer and musician.  But he was one of five, and when he chose to leave, it's simple mathematics that, if forced to choose between him and the band, most would stick with the band.  At least here on a site dedicated to the band, not the former drummer.  Since the split, the band has tried their damnedest to take the high road and not trash him in the press.  He clearly has no problem slamming his former bandmates for how they handled a shitty situation that he alone brought about.

Do you still not understand?

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I just don't get the hatred for him here. Did he have faults? Sure. Was what went down the result of Mike's will? Sure. But that should NOT take away everything he did for the band and most importantly FANS OF THE BAND!

Not everyone here "hates" Mike, but if you can't understand why some do, then really, you're just not trying very hard.

He lied to everyone about his motives behind wanting the band to go on hiatus.  He lied about who said what, and when.  Statements from literally everyone else involved (members of both Dream Theater and Avenged Sevenfold) have borne this out.  Nobody likes being lied to.

He chose to leave, the band begged him to reconsider, but he left anyway.  Then, after the band had moved on, he asked to come back, and he has painted them as the villains for not them letting him come back.  Nobody likes a whiner, especially after it's clear what really happened.

He repeatedly made statements forcing fans to either side with him or with DT regarding the split, and repeatedly made statements designed to make DT look bad while he of course is an innocent victim.  Anyone who sides with him is a fan.  Anyone who sides with DT is a "fan".  Nobody likes being marginalized.

On his own forums, anything resembling fair and balanced discussion regarding the split was squelched.  Comments praising Mike remained, anything criticizing him or suggesting that the band was actually right were deleted.  Nobody likes watching what they consider to be well-constructed positions simply deleted without any explanation.  That represents time and effort spent on something with literally nothing to show.

Yes, he did a lot for the band in the past.  Yes, he is a very talented drummer and musician.  But he was one of five, and when he chose to leave, it's simple mathematics that, if forced to choose between him and the band, most would stick with the band.  At least here on a site dedicated to the band, not the former drummer.  Since the split, the band has tried their damnedest to take the high road and not trash him in the press.  He clearly has no problem slamming his former bandmates for how they handled a shitty situation that he alone brought about.

Do you still not understand?

I agree with a lot of what you said, but think that the fans who "hate" him are being a little harsh lol. He made a very bad mistake (career-wise) unfortunately, but he did a lot for the fans.

That being said, I hope DT keeps MM into perpetuity.

[BlobVanDam]

That happens any time a major band member leaves a band.  There will always be fans who convince themselves that it will never be the same or as good without said member, and no matter what happens, they will stick to that.  Which is a shame.

Funny, I see the same thing here with KM.

[hefdaddy42]

I believe we had this discussion before when discussing click tracks.  In the past there were minor variations in how they played things.  Their focus now seems to be to make sure every rendition of a song is precisely the same.  I think that's something that changed with the loss of a bandleader, and it's a loss in my book.

The "minor variations" in the past were mostly due MP not being the most consistent drummer tempo-wise.

I don't understand what you mean about a lack of spontaneity.  They've never been a band for a great deal of spontaneity in the first place.  If they've lost what little they had, that would be a neglible loss.

On the contrary, if you only had little, then losing any is a huge loss if it's something to be valued at all. Five minus 3 is much more significant than 20 minus 3.

I look at it as something that rarely ever happens going to something that almost never happens.  No big change there. 

EB, I just don't see what you're getting at.  Mind you, I haven't been to a show since MM joined, but I've seen plenty of footage on youtube.  It seems like MP used to act goofy and try to interact with the crowd, and the other 4 stood there and played/sang.  What I see now is that 4 of the 5 are a lot more engaged with the crowd and more present in the moment than they used to be.

I personally didn't see this huge influx of energy that people keep referring to.  I saw them three nights in a row, and they really didn't seem too different than any of the other times I saw them.  JM moved around a bit more, and seemed to play off of MM from time to time when Mangini would make goofy faces at him.  Honestly, they all played off of MP previously.  I'll agree that they're tighter now, but I don't but into the notion that they're all magically energized.

If you didn't see it, you didn't see it.  Not much I can say there; like I said, I'm mostly going off of youtube here.

The only downside I see is the loss of rotating setlists, but personally I never get to go to multiple shows anyway, so that's no big loss.  Yes, it was neat, but the shows are apparently much better now as a total package.  I don't see the big deal.

The rotating setlists thing is bigger than people make it out to be.  It's more than just playing a few different songs each night.  It's occasionally playing different songs differently.  There were long and short versions of some songs.  There were covers that they'd whip out. There were reworkings of old songs.  This all goes back to the spontaneity that you didn't see before.  When they played Solitary Shell,  you were never quite sure what they were going to do with it.  Maybe they come out an play the 18 minute blow out version of it.

I understand what you are saying, but things like that were fairly rare anyway.  You are making them sound like they used to be Phish, where you literally never knew what you were going to get.  That just wasn't the case.  You may not have known exactly what songs they would do, but once they started, you knew how they would go.  I guess that's where our difference lies.  You seem to be making more out their "spontaneity" than I can ever recall there actually being. 

I figure plenty of people here will not care about seeing MP bang on the shells with his sticks.  Personally,  I'd much rather see a one off performance over the precision version that will always run off at 5:43 like clockwork.  Sadly,  I think that this is something we won't be seeing anymore.

Well, again, to me their music has ALWAYS been heavily orchestrated (even their "jams" were things that were worked out), and the biggest difference in the past between a 5:43 song being 5:28 one night and 5:57 the next night was MP's inconsistency with tempo, not some kind of plan to be different.

*shrugs*

[LCArenas]

The Portnoy factor was an important part of the show, all his antics and gimmicks and the way he got along with the fans was incredible. So was his passion with them that I think he actually believed that,  hey, since he was always good with the fans, they'd give them all the support in the split, right?

Well no, he still made a mistake, and now everybody knows he left DT to pursue A7X.

Anyway I derailed myself giving that opinion. Musically speaking the departure of Portnoy did do something for Dream Theater. We all know he was steering DT in the metal direction to "Innovate", but this in my opinion created a musical void or drain that was represented in Systematic Chaos. BCSL was better, but they didn't grow well with time (As for me), and I remember in that by the end of 2009 almost everyone in the forums were rooting for a less-metal, more prog approach, a change of form. I think MP's departure helped DT do that; and I for one am grateful with that change, since I think ADTOE was a great album.

Now, live... The constant setlist is a problem. I like them different. As for the stage energy, well... To be honest, I haven't seen a complete Mangini-eraDT show apart from some few songs, so I can't really tell if DT are the same in the stage without MP (And they are fan-filmed, the quality sucks ), but as for live performance, I actually think they've gotten better, not overstretching the songs making them more instrumental (I only liked one song that did that OK, Surrounded '07, if it wasn't for James' voice back then it would've made a great version), but making them a lot like, if not equal, to the original. That was a good move.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

The Portnoy factor was an important part of the show, all his antics and gimmicks and the way he got along with the fans was incredible. So was his passion with them that I think he actually believed that,  hey, since he was always good with the fans, they'd give them all the support in the split, right?

Well no, he still made a mistake, and now everybody knows he left DT to pursue A7X.

Anyway I derailed myself giving that opinion. Musically speaking the departure of Portnoy did do something for Dream Theater. We all know he was steering DT in the metal direction to "Innovate", but this in my opinion created a musical void or drain that was represented in Systematic Chaos. BCSL was better, but they didn't grow well with time (As for me), and I remember in that by the end of 2009 almost everyone in the forums were rooting for a less-metal, more prog approach, a change of form. I think MP's departure helped DT do that; and I for one am grateful with that change, since I think ADTOE was a great album.

Now, live... The constant setlist is a problem. I like them different. As for the stage energy, well... To be honest, I haven't seen a complete Mangini-eraDT show apart from some few songs, so I can't really tell if DT are the same in the stage without MP (And they are fan-filmed, the quality sucks ), but as for live performance, I actually think they've gotten better, not overstretching the songs making them more instrumental (I only liked one song that did that OK, Surrounded '07, if it wasn't for James' voice back then it would've made a great version), but making them a lot like, if not equal, to the original. That was a good move.

Why is the constant set-list a problem? You realize it's not actually constant right? The a couple songs changed in the US and in EU more of them changed. Please enlighten me as to why the constant set-list is a problem if they've, in your words, "gotten better."

I honestly have no clue what people are complaining about with respect to MM and stage presence. He has fantastic stage presence and he's a fantastic performer. He's just not trying to elevate himself above the other instrumentalists.

[As I Am]

I just don't get the hatred for him here. Did he have faults? Sure. Was what went down the result of Mike's will? Sure. But that should NOT take away everything he did for the band and most importantly FANS OF THE BAND!

Not everyone here "hates" Mike, but if you can't understand why some do, then really, you're just not trying very hard.

He lied to everyone about his motives behind wanting the band to go on hiatus.  He lied about who said what, and when.  Statements from literally everyone else involved (members of both Dream Theater and Avenged Sevenfold) have borne this out.  Nobody likes being lied to.

He chose to leave, the band begged him to reconsider, but he left anyway.  Then, after the band had moved on, he asked to come back, and he has painted them as the villains for not them letting him come back.  Nobody likes a whiner, especially after it's clear what really happened.

He repeatedly made statements forcing fans to either side with him or with DT regarding the split, and repeatedly made statements designed to make DT look bad while he of course is an innocent victim.  Anyone who sides with him is a fan.  Anyone who sides with DT is a "fan".  Nobody likes being marginalized.

On his own forums, anything resembling fair and balanced discussion regarding the split was squelched.  Comments praising Mike remained, anything criticizing him or suggesting that the band was actually right were deleted.  Nobody likes watching what they consider to be well-constructed positions simply deleted without any explanation.  That represents time and effort spent on something with literally nothing to show.

Yes, he did a lot for the band in the past.  Yes, he is a very talented drummer and musician.  But he was one of five, and when he chose to leave, it's simple mathematics that, if forced to choose between him and the band, most would stick with the band.  At least here on a site dedicated to the band, not the former drummer.  Since the split, the band has tried their damnedest to take the high road and not trash him in the press.  He clearly has no problem slamming his former bandmates for how they handled a shitty situation that he alone brought about.

Do you still not understand?

Your points are all well laid out and completely understood (and have been for a long time). I guess what bothers me is that many people here make it sound as if his leaving was something they always wanted.....that just can't be the case, can it? Look, I AM a HUGE MP fan, but first and foremost I am a DT FANATIC, but I refuse to choose one side over the other. Was I happy with what MP did and the way he handled a lot of the aftershock? Absolutely not (and I made that very clear on MP.com many times), but that still doesn't take away everything he's done over the years.

That's just me.

[El Barto]

The "minor variations" in the past were mostly due MP not being the most consistent drummer tempo-wise.

Or JP extending a solo.  Or maybe the intro. Or JLB engaging the audience for a bit in the middle.  Or a 30 second burn out ending rather than an abrupt stop.  Or JR coming up front to dick around with that keytar thing.  Granted, these sorts of things didn't happen every night, but it happened enough on every tour that it was always a possibility each night.  Now it's ruled out. 

When such occurrences are a very real possibility each night, even the standard setlist becomes a surprise.

And even though they plan an improv jam in advance, it's still a freaking improv jam.  It's something different, and it's something exciting.

Why is the constant set-list a problem? You realize it's not actually constant right? The a couple songs changed in the US and in EU more of them changed. Please enlighten me as to why the constant set-list is a problem if they've, in your words, "gotten better."

I honestly have no clue what people are complaining about with respect to MM and stage presence. He has fantastic stage presence and he's a fantastic performer. He's just not trying to elevate himself above the other instrumentalists.

It's not necessarily a problem (though it is in my book), but it's certainly a downgrade.  As the OP pointed out, there was always an element of surprise when you went to see DT.  Hell,  I'm in Dallas where they rarely bother to play, and I've seen a couple of oddballs down here.  There's absolutely nothing surprising about the current shows.  You know what songs they're going to play, and you even know how long the songs will be down to the second.  BMU/BMD is 5:33 long, each night, every night. 

Something I don't think Hef and others are getting about the setlist thing is that I don't expect them to play a different set each and every night.  I'd just like for their to be the possibility that the show I go to see might be unique in some sort of way.  They're not anymore.  They're cookie cutter concerts. And more problematic in my book, they're cookie cutter concerts from a band that's spent 20 years demonstrating that they're much better than that. 

[Orbert]

blah blah blah

Your points are all well laid out and completely understood (and have been for a long time). I guess what bothers me is that many people here make it sound as if his leaving was something they always wanted.....that just can't be the case, can it? Look, I AM a HUGE MP fan, but first and foremost I am a DT FANATIC, but I refuse to choose one side over the other. Was I happy with what MP did and the way he handled a lot of the aftershock? Absolutely not (and I made that very clear on MP.com many times), but that still doesn't take away everything he's done over the years.

That's just me.

I was just responding to the idea that you literally could not understand the Portnoy hate.  To many, all the good he did in the first 20 years with DT did not earn him a free pass on how things ended and how he handled it.  That's all I'm saying.  I'm not even in that camp.  I don't really care much anymore; I've moved on.

But it's like if you have a really good friend or even a lover, then they do something completely horrible that totally destroys your opinion of them personally.  What you're left with are negative feelings, strong ones.  All the good times really can get washed away if the final impression you have is bad enough.

[Rob801]

I'm simply stating that "IMO", he is SORELY missed in the live setting

That's not the impression I get from watching ANY of the videos where MM is introduced to the audience 

This is one I took in Denmark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzLi2BBFG3Y

[hefdaddy42]

Something I don't think Hef and others are getting about the setlist thing is that I don't expect them to play a different set each and every night.  I'd just like for their to be the possibility that the show I go to see might be unique in some sort of way.  They're not anymore.  They're cookie cutter concerts. And more problematic in my book, they're cookie cutter concerts from a band that's spent 20 years demonstrating that they're much better than that.

TBH, I really think that, to a certain extent, that is a function of the band collectively having more control for the first time, and having a new member.  I wouldn't expect this to become a permanent thing.