Outcry Instrumental Section - Why is it so Musically Advanced?

[ReaPsTA]

I remember, as the hype for A Dramatic Turn of Events ramped up, that one of the big storylines was how the instrumental section of Outcry was right up there with Dance of Eternity in terms of how technical and nuts it was.

Having heard it many (many... many...) times, I still don't get it.  The whole thing is obviously very musically unusual.  But I don't understand why it's so hard to play or mathematically complex.

Maybe it's because it's so advanced that I don't understand why it's advanced, which is why I turn to you lovely people on the forum.  Does anyone have any enlightenment to offer me?

[Dekost]

It's rhythmically crazy.

[obscure]

It's mental.

[Zydar]

It's (instru)mental.

Fix'd.

[Estiui]

It's rhythmically crazy.

This. Lots of changes.

[Elite]

And it's weird. Actually, all of Outcry is weird. Come to think of it. The structure doesn't make sense, the choruses in different keys, the rabid tempo, mood and feel switches. It's cool though.

[Jamesman42]

the choruses in different keys,

[ResultsMayVary]

the choruses in different keys,

[Ultimetalhead]

I don't think it's as mad as Dance of Eternity, but it's definitely the most technically impressive part of the album.

[Millais]

yeah for comparisons to TDOE it'd have to contain 105+ time signature changes. Unfortunately I can't see that. Still very cool though.

[hefdaddy42]

It's rhythmically crazy.

[Jamesman42]

It's definitely one of their most complex instrumentals, very technical (yes I listen to technical music), very "DT instrumentally."

[Elite]

the choruses in different keys,

The first chorus is a lot higher than the last chorus. The last chorus is identical to the intro, while the first one is a fourth higher, with guitar parts even higher.

[Jamesman42]

Yeah but that doesn't mean it's in a different key. Just an altered melody.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah but that doesn't mean it's in a different key. Just an altered melody.

It's in a different key.  The last chorus is in a lower key than the preceding ones.

[Jamesman42]

Wait. I'm certainly not any sort of music theorist, but isn't the music behind the vocals in the same key?

[hefdaddy42]

Wait. I'm certainly not any sort of music theorist, but isn't the music behind the vocals in the same key?

No.

[BRGM]

no, the music is not in the same key. during the intro and last chorus, I'd guess the key is in B, and the first chorus is in E

[Jamesman42]

Oh, E and B....they really worked that nicely then. Smooth.

I wish I had perfect pitch.

[hefdaddy42]

Oh, E and B....they really worked that nicely then. Smooth.

I wish I had perfect pitch.

Perfect pitch isn't necessary.  I certainly don't have it.

[Jamesman42]

Yeah, but I couldn't tell and usually I'm good with that stuff without having it either. I thought he just sung the chorus in a lower register.

It's probably because they're separated by that crazy instrumental.

[The Fatal Tragedy]

Wait, wouldn't the "Tickle Section" (as JP and JR call it) in "Lost Not forgotten" be the most technically insane instrumental moment on the entire album? I'm pretty sure that JP and JR admitted that it gave them the hardest time to get right. This also leads me to believe that this section's technicality is what is preventing DT from performing it live.

[Ultimetalhead]

I love how the choruses are in different keys. It's probably my favorite aspect of the song, honestly. I think someone described it as the difficulty of continuing to fight when the outlook is grim, and it made me love it even more. If that's what they were going for, that's some fantastic songwriting.

[hefdaddy42]

I love how the choruses are in different keys. It's probably my favorite aspect of the song, honestly. I think someone described it as the difficulty of continuing to fight when the outlook is grim, and it made me love it even more. If that's what they were going for, that's some fantastic songwriting.

That was me.

[Ultimetalhead]

I love how the choruses are in different keys. It's probably my favorite aspect of the song, honestly. I think someone described it as the difficulty of continuing to fight when the outlook is grim, and it made me love it even more. If that's what they were going for, that's some fantastic songwriting.

That was me.

[BlobVanDam]

Having heard it many (many... many...) times, I still don't get it.  The whole thing is obviously very musically unusual.  But I don't understand why it's so hard to play or mathematically complex.

I don't get it either. I mean, it's a bit crazy, but relatively speaking it doesn't sound anywhere near as crazy as TDOE or BTL or some of their other songs.

[theseoafs]

Having heard it many (many... many...) times, I still don't get it.  The whole thing is obviously very musically unusual.  But I don't understand why it's so hard to play or mathematically complex.

DT's spoiled you on complex music.

[Implode]

I actually tend to agree with you. Once you learn the groupings of the 16ths notes, it's not that hard. (You know which part I'm talking about.)

The real difficulty comes in when they perform it all together on stage. They all have to stay in time together. I think that'd be pretty hard especially in the first part when Jordan is playing the longer notes against the fast 16ths.

I still think The Dance of Eternity is more complex.

[Mladen]

Just try to count and keep the beat all the way through. After a couple of takes you'll be like ''Fuck this shit!'' 

[Nihil-Morari]

I've really listened to this section with a couple of times with the intention to understand it.

The only thing about TDOE that I can't really understand theoretically is 4:47. The time sig changes as well as the tempo (I think), and outcry is full of that stuff.
And whereas MP always had the leading role in those weird sections, playing at least the 1 every measure, MM has the positively annoying habit of 'working against the meter'.

The best example of a difficult section to understand is possibly 6:38 - 6:45, where they end the first phrase with two triplets, and add one triplet-eigth at the end of the second phrase. So instead of adding an eight note (making it 9/8 and then 10/8) they add a triplet-eight, making it, well... something different.
The second funny thing about that part is, is that it already is 9/8, 10/8, 11/8 and then that funny measure (resulting in 12/8 I believe).
The last thing that makes those 7 seconds cool is that the next crazy riff, MM doesn't play a strong beat on the one. So you'll get all mixed up.

And this section is understandable. You go figure.

[Nihil-Morari]

Wait, that's not even right.

It's phrase 1a - phrase 1b - phrase 1a + 2 eights - phrase 1b + a triplet = 2 eights

[olliemedsy]

we'll im 16 and i've nearly learnt the whole section on drums, so its not that hard

[Nihil-Morari]

To copy something is never difficult. I was talking about theoretically explaining it, or thinking of it in the first place.

[hefdaddy42]

To copy something is never difficult. I was talking about theoretically explaining it, or thinking of it in the first place.

Yes, that is MUCH harder.

And the complexity isn't just the drumming.

[Mladen]

To copy something is never difficult. I was talking about theoretically explaining it, or thinking of it in the first place.

Indeed.