The two must underrated albums I've ever known: SC and BC&SL.

[Jaq]

The problem with the idea that the band was trying to cultivate an image to fit in with a label like Roadrunner is that is only true if the only label the band was considering signing with was Roadrunner. It's far more fair to say "the band went in a metal direction I don't like" than to continue hammering on Roadrunner because they have bands that you don't think Dream Theater should sound like.

I don't think they were trying to fit in with some preconceived notion of what label they wanted to be on, obviously.

And by the way, you know who else is on Roadrunner?

Nickelback.

[hefdaddy42]

And by the way, you know who else is on Roadrunner?

Nickelback.

Also: KISS and Lynyrd Skynyrd.

[WildeSilas]

I wasn't meaning to hammer on RR necessarily. My point was the while MP was spending a lot of time hanging with/listening to bands like Lamb of God, Atreyu, etc. the other guys have never seemed to care much for that sound or image. I was a bit shocked when they took Trivium out on the road last year because of this. It seemed that Mike, both in image and sound, was trying to identify more with these types of bands, many of them signed to RR, rather than continuing to define DT's original sound and let the up-and-comers imitate them.

[Rho d Berth]

ITPOE (I concider it to be 1 whole song) is imho the most progressive song dt ever made. I love it a lot. It's in my top 5 easily.

The way the song progresses, builds upon themes, let themes recur in different shapes, partly instrumental, etc. is beyond anything they've done before.
Take just only the chorus, 'angels fall' etc. First it comes instrumentally, then softly, then intense, etc.
Take the bridge, in Pt1 it's played instrumentally, in Pt2 it's sung.

Musically it's very creative to pull this off and I admire DT for doing it.
Too bad that they ruin the song with this terrible out of place instrumental. Usually I skip the instrumental, then it's a perfect song. Dramatic ending, awesome build up. I dare anybody to name a more progressive DT song then ITPOE. (progressive in the true meaning of the word; a song that progresses during it's run on earlier themes)

Unfortunately those out of place instrumentals were the problem for these 2 albums. TCOT suffers the same problem. It feels like an instrumental for the sake of an instrumental.

I love TBOT a lot as well. Both musically as lyrically.
Same with MOLS, but that's perhaps as well because I lyrically relate it to my personal belief.
Repentance is awesome.

I care a bit less for the other songs, but the songs mentioned above are right now on the top of my playing list.

I feel that ADTOE is less progressive then these two albums, though I love most of the songs.

[theseoafs]

Musically it's very creative to pull this off and I admire DT for doing it.
Too bad that they ruin the song with this terrible out of place instrumental. Usually I skip the instrumental, then it's a perfect song. Dramatic ending, awesome build up. I dare anybody to name a more progressive DT song then ITPOE. (progressive in the true meaning of the word; a song that progresses during it's run on earlier themes)

I was very confused by your post until I reached this point. You're operating on an unusual definition of "progressive".

If we're going to define "progressive" as "recurring over themes with variations each time as a classical composition might", then ITPOE is sort of progressive, I guess. For my money Octavarium accomplishes this better than any Dream Theater song to date. There's the main theme which, if my memory suits me, can be found in each of the song's movements, as well as a bunch of other spare motifs which are constantly morphing and being referenced.

If we're going by the usual definition of "progressive", however, ITPOE isn't progressive at all. It's really very formulaic.

[Ħ]

- ITPOE1:  It's okay.  It doesn't really grab me, but I can't think of anything wrong with it.
- Forsaken: Lousy chorus, but the rest is really really good.
- CM: MP backing vocals are lame at points, but overall an extremely solid song.
- TDEN: There comes a point when wacky is just too wacky.  There's not much rhyme or reason to the melodies or rhythms apart from the chorus.
- Repentance: Goes on way too long and those vocal harmonies aren't good enough to compensate.  Everything before the long outro is good though.
- POW: Worst song ever.
- TMOLS: There are some awesome parts of this song ("I used my freedom to protect you") but there's some drawbacks.  I don't like the bombastic intro for a ballad, the uncalled-for instrumental section, and the extended outro.
- ITPOE2: Amazing.  Everything blows me away.  I especially love the chanting section with the chugging guitar underneath.  I guess the instrumental section is eh, and I'm not into the Mario sounds, but everything else is brilliant.

ANTR: One of the best DT intros there is.  It's perfect up until the end of Beautiful Agony, and then it gets old real fast.
AROP: The riff isn't that cool.  James is great, but that's about it.  Nothing special here.
Wither: Never really got this one.  The guitar tone is great but this song doesn't cover any new territory at all.  It's okay, I guess.
TSF: Used to love it.  Instrumentally, it's terrific.  That solo at the end is one of JP's best.  Unfortunately the lyrics are, in my opinion, the worst lyrics of any DT song.
TBOT: Actually not that bad.  It's sentimental and can get corny at times, but if I place myself in MP's shoes, it's really a heart-warming song.
TCOT: Don't love it as much as I used to.  The intro is, of course, awesome, as is the outro.  Everything else is pretty lame though.

So, the verdict from me is that these albums aren't that good, although there are a few shining moments on each.  They simply don't hold a candle to IAW, SFAM, SDOIT, and FII.

[Rho d Berth]

I was very confused by your post until I reached this point. You're operating on an unusual definition of "progressive".

If we're going to define "progressive" as "recurring over themes with variations each time as a classical composition might", then ITPOE is sort of progressive, I guess. For my money Octavarium accomplishes this better than any Dream Theater song to date. There's the main theme which, if my memory suits me, can be found in each of the song's movements, as well as a bunch of other spare motifs which are constantly morphing and being referenced.

If we're going by the usual definition of "progressive", however, ITPOE isn't progressive at all. It's really very formulaic.

What's the 'usual' definition of 'progressive'?
Octavarium becomes progressive from part 7 on for sure.
Before that I thought that expanding on old themes is quite minimal.

Within the songs there is of course enough expanding of themes. But these songs could all be songs on their own as well. Apart of course from part 1 returning everywhere once in a while.

ITPOE manages to do this while still feeling like one song.

I would not say that progressive means just recurring a theme througout a song or just having some variations. It's expanding a theme. There's progress in the song. It doesn't end as it started. (like commercial pop songs, if you've heard one verse, you'ver heard the entire song).

I thought that my definition was quite common, thoug I know there are other opinions. Some say that progressive must mean that every song is different from all other songs, and every album should be different from all other albums. If that would be the case then Queen would be the most progressive band ever.

[theseoafs]

Here's a definition of progressive music. If someone says the word "progressive" on this board, this is 99.99% of the time what they're referring to (you being the .01%). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Rock

Writing progressive music has more to do with expanding the boundaries of music (i.e. progressing your particular genre) than writing music that progresses.

[WildeSilas]

For my money Octavarium accomplishes this better than any Dream Theater song to date. There's the main theme which, if my memory suits me, can be found in each of the song's movements, as well as a bunch of other spare motifs which are constantly morphing and being referenced.

And see? This is a really important point too. After the thoughtfulness and purpose that obviously went into crafting a song like Octavarium, ITPOE and TCOT are simple not on par, IMO. If Iron Maiden or Queensryche had written either of those, I would be blown away. But following SFAM (the album) SDOIT and 8vm (the songs), ITPOE and TCOT both seem very thrown together and thoughtless to me. Both are songs that JP could probably write in his sleep, both with unnecessary instrumentals thrown in, seemingly to beef up the time to "epic" status. Consider this: They had to split ITPOE into two parts because they had already done so many songs like this, it seemed redundant to put it at either the beginning or the end of the album. If something is so tired that the only way you can keep if from being tired is splitting it up and using it as book ends, maybe it doesn't belong on the album at all? I don't know. ITPOE is far and away my favorite tune on SC, but that's not saying much. It's really hard to compare it to 8VM and not feel like it falls far short of DT's songwriting capabilities. I do appreciate the recurring themes and the expansion of the musical ideas as the song progresses. But even comparing the subject matter of ITPOE and TCOT to any other DT epic, I'm left scratching my head.