Which is worse?

[AngelBack]

I'm posting this just for discussion and because I think it's interesting.
OK I found the Six Degrees story. It's actually from this forum, but looks like the thread is deleted:https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=20426.0

From a book by: Steven Schwartzberg, written in 2000: https://www.amazon.com/Casebook-Psychological-Disorders-Emotional-Distress/dp/0321011716 



My initial reaction (admittedly probably wrong) is that I wish I had not seen this.  Somebody please make me feel better....


Case 4: Bipolar Disorder

Thirty-year old Audrey Samson briskly paced the short length of the psychiatric evaluation unit of her local hospital. "Where's my manuscript? Where's my pen? Dr. Spock is obsolete! Child-raising, child-rearing, experts, experts, and more experts! I'm rewriting it all, for mothers everywhere! Revamping patriarchal society's version of bringing up baby. It takes a village, I know that much, Hillary Clinton. They're expecting me in Washington, and I've got work to do, I'm the one for the job!"
Mark, Audrey's husband... His eyes were red-rimmed from lack of sleep. A social worker with the hospital's psychiatric crisis service watched Audrey... "I've never seen her get this bad," Mark told her....
Mark stood by helplessly. He knew it was useless to try to reason with Audrey...

Audrey Samson was raised in a midwestern university town...

(her father): Always mercurial, however, he could just as easily be exuberantly charming and funny... barely taking a break... 

...Audrey was a driven student, even as a young girl... her drive toward achievement seemed endless...

...By mid-semester, she was sleeping 14 to 16 hours per day...

For the remainder of her college years, Audrey resumed her energetic pace, much to her advantage.....boundless energy...


From the schizophrenia chapter:



On first appearance, Roger Larkin looked and sounded like an average 25 year old.... Still, she remembered him as basically a healthy and "normal" baby.His infancy was uneventful, and he met important developmental milestones, such as learning to crawl, walk, and talk, on time. He was fussy in that he did not care to be held very much, but in most other regards he seemed no different from other infants......


As a boy, Roger was considered by his parents and teachers to be somewhat odd and isolative. He often had a "spacey" quality about him, tending to daydream in class and drift off into his own world. He kept to himself most of the time.

... He spent a great deal of time by himself. He began keeping an elaborate notebook, filling it with writings, drawings, and poems.

...She also hoped that moving away from home might help break Roger out of his solitary shell

...By November, Roger had made no friends and was helplessly behind in his schoolwork...He kept as his sole companion his notebook, writing for hours at a time...



  https://www.mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/13.aspx#215


"We knew once we had that we needed to come up with a concept that would tie it all together, so John and I came up with this idea of creating six different characters and each of us would write about three of them. So I wrote about three and John wrote about three. Basically, it's almost like a tour through an insane asylum where people are dealing with mental anguish, manic depression, and issues like that. So we created six different characters and tried to look at their different stories and differences in their lives, but yet the common thread that binds them all together."

Sorry, jacked up the first try.  I probably will feel different later, but I wish I had not read this.

[bosk1]

Umm...thanks for quoting a long post for no apparent reason. 

[Sigz]

Ehhh, I'm kinda with Rob on this. Just going through that wiki link, almost all of them are fairly classic and well known pieces of literature, and many of the songs are clearly citing that piece of literature in their title (see: like every Iron Maiden song on that list).

To me there's a big difference between writing a song about Lord of the Rings or Brave New World and pulling lines from some foreign comic book or an obscure medical book and not giving any acknowledgement of the original inspiration.

I mean, it doesn't particularly bother me, but I can see how if I had some real emotional connection to the lyrics I'd be rather peeved to find out they came from somewhere else.

[chknptpie]

Don't care and actually think its pretty cool to hear and recognize references.

[CodyWanKenobi]

Anyone heard the main riff to Psychosane? Same riff as the main riff in Lie except in a higher tuning and with a different drum groove.. but same riff.. I call plagiarism.

[a51502112]

Anyone heard the main riff to Psychosane? Same riff as the main riff in Lie except in a higher tuning and with a different drum groove.. but same riff.. I call plagiarism.

I hear it's even the same guy playing teh drumz.

[lithium112]

I think taking lyrical inspiration from a text is actually really cool and adds an additional dimension to the lyrics that would not otherwise be present. So I wish JP had pointed out the sources at the beginning, rather than people finding out later on. It's really not a big deal and, as others have said, would have avoided all the controversy entirely.

In terms of the music itself, I don't feel like DT has ever written a song or passage that I would actually consider plagiarism. There are definite similarities in the feel of some song sections (Never Enough, BMUBMD, etc.) but I'm OK with that.

So in the context of the way DT draws inspiration from other bands and texts, I also vote "I don't care".

[ZirconBlue]

I voted "I don't care", but I would prefer that lyrical inspirations be given credit in the liner notes, where possible.

[theseoafs]

Taking inspiration from literature is something that musicians have done since the beginning of time. Who cares if DT consulted some obscure medical case book while writing SDOIT? It's not as if the writer of that case book made some artistic work which DT then took credit for and profited from. That's plagiarism, and that's a big deal. This is not plagiarism, and it is not a big deal. Voted "I don't care".

Nobody makes a fuss about the "oh that this too too solid flesh" line in Pull Me Under; shouldn't they be crediting Shakespeare if the ITPOE/SDOIT case is plagiarism?

(On a side note, Panic Attack's lyrics have always seemed kind of clinical and strange to me. I'd be surprised if they didn't snag a couple lines from some other obscure medical book.)

[kirksnosehair]

I didn't care when Dream Theater did it while Portnoy was in the band and I don't care now.

[Sigz]

Why does everyone keep saying 'taking inspiration' when there are lines and phrases straight up pulled from the original source?

[snapple]

Why does everyone keep saying 'taking inspiration' when there are lines and phrases straight up pulled from the original source?

There are only so many ways to classify a psychological disorder.

Also, John Petrucci is a musician - not a psychologist. I'm not doubting his intelligence at all, but I don't think he has the psychological "know-how" to diagnose someone. And, in the spirit of keeping the lyrics relate-able, I'm assuming he lifted the case as-is. I'd rather him get something like that right and get some help than bullshit something and be wrong (see "Schizophrenia" and look at how many people confuse it with multiple personality disorder).

Rena, John, if you read this, I used the song Voices in a psychology class. We were talking about how in media things like Schizophrenia are often confused with other disorders, and I showed an example of a guy who got it right.

[bosk1]

Why does everyone keep saying 'taking inspiration' when there are lines and phrases straight up pulled from the original source?

Probably because, in this context, for all intents and purposes, there isn't a meaningful distinction.

[Sigz]

Ehhh, that's a pretty weak argument IMO, but either way it doesn't even touch on ITPOE/Priest.

Why does everyone keep saying 'taking inspiration' when there are lines and phrases straight up pulled from the original source?

Probably because, in this context, for all intents and purposes, there isn't a meaningful distinction.

Really? You see no distinction between, say, Brave New World and ITPOE?

[snapple]

Just curious (for the sake of discussion), what was weak about it?

[bosk1]

Why does everyone keep saying 'taking inspiration' when there are lines and phrases straight up pulled from the original source?

Probably because, in this context, for all intents and purposes, there isn't a meaningful distinction.

Really? You see no distinction between, say, Brave New World and ITPOE?

I'm not even sure what your post means.  But what mine means is, in the context of ITPOE, for example, there is little meaningful distinction between saying it is "inspired by Priest" and "lines and phrases are pulled directly from Priest."  No big difference.

[SystematicThought]

I always thought Solitary Shell was about Autism

[yorost]

I didn't see it mentioned, but Maiden released songs about books where they were flat out told by the authors it wasn't cool.  The Frank Herbert story has been out for years, he told them he hated their music and didn't want a song titled Dune on their album.  They named it To Tame a Land, but it's still obviously about Dune.

[lithium112]

I'm not even sure what your post means.  But what mine means is, in the context of ITPOE, for example, there is little meaningful distinction between saying it is "inspired by Priest" and "lines and phrases are pulled directly from Priest."  No big difference.

I think the difference is that while Brave New World is definitely about the book, they didn't take sentences from the novel and use them in the lyrics. Whereas a good chunk of ITPOE uses the same words as the manga and borrows certain noteworthy phrases word for word, even if the sentences are rearranged to fit the song somewhat. I'm sure you have seen the comparison but here's a link: https://faq.dtnorway.com/question?questionid=1098

Anyway, I don't really dislike the lyrics to ITPOE because of this. But I definitely think there's a distinction that can be made between "inspired by" and "lines and phrases pulled directly from".

[bosk1]

Yes, of course I have seen the comparison.  And, like most, my reaction is:  So what? 

[reneranucci]

Yes, of course I have seen the comparison.  And, like most, my reaction is:  So what?

Well, he's taking credit as an artist for something he didn't create, instead of acknowledging the original source, and that is what bothers me. Of course, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter that much, but it reminds me of some of my students copypasting from wikipedia and saying it's their own homework, or some colleague who used to take credit for things he didn't do. It's just wrong IMO, from a common sense perspective, without introducing any legal or technical definitions. 

[Dublagent66]

I didn't really care much until the last two album titles when they used phrases that were already coined by someone else. 

[bosk1]

Yes, of course I have seen the comparison.  And, like most, my reaction is:  So what?

Well, he's taking credit as an artist for something he didn't create, instead of acknowledging the original source, and that is what bothers me. Of course, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter that much, but it reminds me of some of my students copypasting from wikipedia and saying it's their own homework, or some colleague who used to take credit for things he didn't do. It's just wrong IMO, from a common sense perspective, without introducing any legal or technical definitions. 

Apparently, it is NOT wrong from a "common sense" perspective since a large majority of the people polled here (as well as the five members of the band) do NOT think it is wrong.

[a51502112]

Why does everyone keep saying 'taking inspiration' when there are lines and phrases straight up pulled from the original source?

(Me taking a couple bucks from my wife's wallet): "I'm just "taking inspiration" from your purse, mmkay?"

[lithium112]

Yes, of course I have seen the comparison.  And, like most, my reaction is:  So what?

I'm not saying there is something inherently wrong with it. I voted that I don't care in this poll because I don't have a problem with lyrics being taken from books etc. as long as they are good. That was not the point of my post. The point was that there is, contrary to what you are claiming, a difference between "taking inspiration" and using lines and phrases directly from another source. I only posted the comparison to show to you or other posters who may not be familiar with it the extent to which JP copied those lines.

Again, I'm not judging JP's actions. I'm just arguing against your assertion.

[Jaffa]

Yes, of course I have seen the comparison.  And, like most, my reaction is:  So what?

Well, he's taking credit as an artist for something he didn't create, instead of acknowledging the original source, and that is what bothers me. Of course, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter that much, but it reminds me of some of my students copypasting from wikipedia and saying it's their own homework, or some colleague who used to take credit for things he didn't do. It's just wrong IMO, from a common sense perspective, without introducing any legal or technical definitions. 

Apparently, it is NOT wrong from a "common sense" perspective since a large majority of the people polled here (as well as the five members of the band) do NOT think it is wrong.

Eh, to be fair, there's a difference between 'I don't care' and 'I don't think it is wrong.'  The former is just apathy about an issue, not necessarily support or opposition.  Me, for example - I do think that if JP knowingly and directly lifted lines from a book, he should have credited that book for those lyrics.  However, it's also not like he published a book on psychological disorders claiming credit for research he didn't do and failing to cite his sources - he merely took some words and put them to music.  To me it's a nonissue. 

Like, I don't want people stealing from me, but if someone steals four pennies they find in my couch cushions, I really won't care. 

Point is, I do agree with rene that it's pretty much common sense: if you knowingly quote someone else under any context, you should credit them, or at least clarify that you weren't the original writer of the quote.  So, if JP failed to credit some obscure medical text for his lyrics, then I am, in principle, against that.  It just doesn't affect my opinion of the music or the lyrics or JP as a lyricist or anything else.

[ytserush]

I think taking lyrical inspiration from a text is actually really cool and adds an additional dimension to the lyrics that would not otherwise be present. So I wish JP had pointed out the sources at the beginning, rather than people finding out later on. It's really not a big deal and, as others have said, would have avoided all the controversy entirely.

In terms of the music itself, I don't feel like DT has ever written a song or passage that I would actually consider plagiarism. There are definite similarities in the feel of some song sections (Never Enough, BMUBMD, etc.) but I'm OK with that.

So in the context of the way DT draws inspiration from other bands and texts, I also vote "I don't care".

I should have been more clear.

This is essentially my point.

If there was some kind of credit given in the liner notes, or even if he just mentioned something in an interview (which I'd like to read if there is something out there) I don't think the point would even be worth raising.

Even if it was only a line or three or four, I'd probably still wouldn't think much of it.


But as I said before, it is what it is and I still enjoy/not enjoy as I had before this came to light.

[Resonate]

There's some brief comments from JP about the manga here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_Chaos#In_the_Presence_of_Enemies


Which I notice that Wiki credits to an interview posted on 5/8.  Not sure if that's a professional interview, or fan interview.  Maybe someone else here is more familiar with who did the interview.

[bosk1]

Eh, to be fair, there's a difference between 'I don't care' and 'I don't think it is wrong.'  The former is just apathy about an issue, not necessarily support or opposition.  Me, for example - I do think that if JP knowingly and directly lifted lines from a book, he should have credited that book for those lyrics.  However, it's also not like he published a book on psychological disorders claiming credit for research he didn't do and failing to cite his sources - he merely took some words and put them to music.  To me it's a nonissue. 

Like, I don't want people stealing from me, but if someone steals four pennies they find in my couch cushions, I really won't care. 

Point is, I do agree with rene that it's pretty much common sense: if you knowingly quote someone else under any context, you should credit them, or at least clarify that you weren't the original writer of the quote.  So, if JP failed to credit some obscure medical text for his lyrics, then I am, in principle, against that.  It just doesn't affect my opinion of the music or the lyrics or JP as a lyricist or anything else.

Okay, I get that that's your position.  Fair enough. 

To state mine more clearly:  I see nothing intrinsically wrong with taking direct lines or direct musical passages without citing the original source, at least not in this context.  I do not consider it stealing or plagiarism, and I do not think most professional musicians do either. 

I have no issue with those who think differently.  But I think it is nonsense for some who disagree to figuratively jump up and down and pound the table and try to say, "No, it's obviously intrinsically wrong; why can't you see it?"

[Vivace]

I'm going to assume that those who think JP plagiarized also accuse Neil Peart of plagiarism with Xanadu. If it's bad that JP lifted a few sentences from Priest, don't forget NP lifted a few things from Xanadu - Kubla Khan.  I do find it interesting that in all the threads on this issue I see pop up here and in other forums, I never have seen anyone mention Rush's Xanadu. 

[a51502112]

I'm going to assume that those who think JP plagiarized also accuse Neil Peart of plagiarism with Xanadu. If it's bad that JP lifted a few sentences from Priest, don't forget NP lifted a few things from Xanadu - Kubla Khan.  I do find it interesting that in all the threads on this issue I see pop up here and in other forums, I never have seen anyone mention Rush's Xanadu.

Can't remember where I saw the Xanadu lyrics, but I'm pretty sure I saw " " quotation marks where NP used the same lines.

[ResultsMayVary]

I don't care.

[theseoafs]

I'm going to assume that those who think JP plagiarized also accuse Neil Peart of plagiarism with Xanadu. If it's bad that JP lifted a few sentences from Priest, don't forget NP lifted a few things from Xanadu - Kubla Khan.  I do find it interesting that in all the threads on this issue I see pop up here and in other forums, I never have seen anyone mention Rush's Xanadu.

Can't remember where I saw the Xanadu lyrics, but I'm pretty sure I saw " " quotation marks where NP used the same lines.

Yep.

[DebraKadabra]

<---- doesn't care

[GasparXR]

From the schizophrenia chapter:

Which, thankfully, dispels the theory that "Solitary Shell" is about autism.

-Marc.

Which is confusing, because The Test That Stumped Them All is also heavily theorised to be about schizophrenia.

Anyways, I don't care either. People have already said it, I doubt JP would have lifted those lyrics with bad intentions.