Would Dream Theater Have....

[Tick]

The question is this, and I'm not doing this to start trouble. Would Dream Theater have made as good an album as they just did if Mike was still with them? I personally think he would have fought the direction to go back to there roots and I don't think the album would have turned out as good. I don't think we would have gotten that classic DT sound because Mike liked the direction they were going and that direction was away from the prog and towards the metal.
Any thoughts?

[FlyingBIZKIT]

I don't think so. I think Mike leaving was actually a better decision overall. The last 2 DT albums before ADTOE were some of their weakest, and I think it was time for a change.

[Ben_Jamin]

possibly if they all agreed to take that unspecified time off.

[Elite]

No, I think DT made the right decision. The last two albums (Chaos and Clouds) were basically 'crap' in comparison to their old stuff. I mean, I still somewhat like them, but they can't match Scenes, I&W or Awake by any means. Another one of those albums would have been really unfortunate for us, so this turn of events did turn out quite well imho.

[Nekov]

Well, I don't think ADTOE is as good as the majority here thinks but I will say that it's better SC and BC&SL. Whether they would have made a better or worse album with MP I don't know. If they were able to do it without him then I don't see any reason why they couldn't have with MP on board.

[kirksnosehair]

From what I've seen (and I agree) ADTOE is the best thing they've done since SDOIT, and I think it's pretty clear that Mike Portnoy was pushing the band in a different direction than what they took with this album, so, no.  I think (with respect to Mike Portnoy for his past contributions to Dream Theater) the best thing that has happened to Dream Theater in the last few years is Mike Portnoy quitting the band.

[johncal]

Well, I don't think ADTOE is as good as the majority here thinks but I will say that it's better SC and BC&SL. Whether they would have made a better or worse album with MP I don't know. If they were able to do it without him then I don't see any reason why they couldn't have with MP on board.

The reason they couldn't do it with Portnoy is because he wouldn't have let it happen. That's pretty obvious to said majority.

[Ħ]

Well, I don't think ADTOE is as good as the majority here thinks but I will say that it's better SC and BC&SL. Whether they would have made a better or worse album with MP I don't know. If they were able to do it without him then I don't see any reason why they couldn't have with MP on board.

That.

I wonder if ADTOE is the way it is because:

1) MP was pushing for really bad ideas, and when he left, the bad ideas went with him, or

2) DT lost a vital member of their band and really picked themselves up due to the pressure.

I think it's 2.  They knew this album would be important for their career, much more than, say, SC or BCSL.

[Tick]

If they were able to do it without him then I don't see any reason why they couldn't have with MP on board.

You don't? How about, he had a different vision for the band and its future. I personally like the last few albums, but this new album is better.

[Scrub206]

I still wonder what this album would have been like if MP played on it. like the music was exactly the same, just MPs version of the drum parts.

When im listening to the album in the car or what ever, still to this day ill sing, what i believe to be, an MP drum grove/fill. because face it, weve all listened to the songs enough to know where mike would put certain fills and what not. theres no denying it 

[ResultsMayVary]

I don't think it would have been as good if Mike was still in the band. The decision to go back to a balanced album has made this new album incredible.

[Nekov]

The thing is, even if MP was pushing for something else, there are still 4 other guys in the band that could have said they didn't like it and try to create something different. It's like MP was an evil terrifying guy in the studio.

[Scrub206]

The thing is, even if MP was pushing for something else, there are still 4 other guys in the band that could have said they didn't like it and try to create something different. It's like MP was an evil terrifying guy in the studio.

I think it all boiled down to them just enjoying playing music. and just being comfortable with the situation. it worked for them. Honestly? if they didnt like the direction they all wouldve said something.


But omg i love manginis playing xD

[bosk1]

The question is this, and I'm not doing this to start trouble. Would Dream Theater have made as good an album as they just did if Mike was still with them? I personally think he would have fought the direction to go back to there roots and I don't think the album would have turned out as good. I don't think we would have gotten that classic DT sound because Mike liked the direction they were going and that direction was away from the prog and towards the metal.
Any thoughts?

Yes and no.  On one hand, I don't think things would have been drastically different with Portnoy still in the band simply because, in terms of the riff and melody writing, that mostly comes from Petrucci and Jordan.  So in that respect, I don't think things would have changed all that much.  But there are areas where I do think things would have been different:

1.  Keyboard parts.  Mike liked to write and record quickly.  And it worked, not only for DT, but seems to work well when he works with Neal Morse solo and Transatlantic (although, in both of those bands, a lot of ideas get worked up in a lot of detail before the band comes together to "write" the songs).  But Jordan said in an interview not so long ago that one thing that was different this time around is that the band was able to take longer, which allowed him to really come up with more dynamic keyboard parts that countered the guitar rather than just following it.  I think that results in the songs having a lot more "breathing room" that Samsara and others have commented that they felt songs have been missing for awhile.

2.  A lot of "shorter" (for DT) songs.  Mike's contribution to the writing process, from everything I have seen and heard, is in the realm of song arrangement and suggestions for taking existing ideas and expanding them.  And I think we see his influence in DT as well as other projects in terms of moving the song arrangements to heavily favor the longer epics.  That isn't a bad thing, but it felt a bit tiring.  I'm guessing, but I think it was easier for the band to move towards shorter songs this time around.

3.  Attitude.  The band knew they had something to prove.  It's hard to quantify exactly how that comes across in the music.  But when a band is in a head space where they are hungry and trying to prove something versus doing what they've done ten times before, it comes across in the music in intangible ways.  I really like the recent pre-ADTOE albums.  But there are very small things that really take ADTOE to a higher level.  And a lot of that are the intangibles.

4.  Other intangibles we'll never know about.  We all know Mike was the primary bridge between the fans and the band in the past.  John Petrucci told me that since Mike left, he has felt like he has had to force himself to pay more attention to what goes on online.  I did not ask him whether that directly impacted the writing of the album in any way, shape, or form.  But given that I know he and James have been paying attention to things that are said online, either by reading things themselves, or by listening to other members of the DT organization who read things, it would not surprise me if some things fans have been saying influenced the writing in ways that we haven't seen before, even if they are very small subtle things.

So, that's my two cents.

[jcmistat]

The band was so lively, full of smiles and joy this tour; combined with the success of album and shows I think its obvious what I think the answer is.

[BlobVanDam]

I say it would have been just as good. I don't find ADTOE better (or worse) than their previous albums, it just has different strengths and weaknesses. I'm guessing with Portnoy it would have been less consistent, but had songs I much prefer, if their previous albums are anything to go by.

[CrimsonE]

While I think that BC&SL was a big setp up from SC with some of the best stuff in their catalog, it was clear that the band needed a bit of a change, to demonstrate they have something to prove, and as usual doing so with what seems like ease.

And that always seems to be the case when they have a shift in personnel:

The departure of Charlie and the additon of James brought Images & Words, which I consider to still be the finest album they've done. 

The inclusion of Derek Sheridian led to the classic A Change of Seasons EP.  And although it may not be the favorite album from many fans, I consider FII to have some of the band's best work (Trial of Tears, Peruvian Skies, Just Let Me Breathe).

Then in comes Jordan Rudess, which then led to Scenes from a Memory, and the real turning point for the band, with the most stable lineup (SFAM, 6Degrees, Train of Thought, 8VM, SC and BL&SL).  But near the end it was clear that while stlll pretty solid, the albums weren't quite as classic as in the past.

But with ADTOE, we have another near classic album, arguably the best since ToT or even SFAM.  Plus, there is an amazing new energy live that I don't believe I've ever seen (having only seen them since Gigantour 05).  I don't think they could have achieved either if MP was still in the band, thus justifying their decision to continue, even MP apparently wanted his old job back. 

[Jamariquay]

A Dramatic Turn Of Events, with Mike Portnoy still in the band. Hm....


On The Backs Of Angels: More like A Rite Of Passage. The interlude in the middle would probably be longer and heavier.

Build Me Up, Break Me Down: I don't see this one changing too much, but I'd bet my bottom dollar we'd see Mike doing backup (and perhaps lead) vox all over this track.

Lost Not Forgotten: Mike probably wouldn't have followed Under A Glass Moon's structure quite as much. I see this being similar to Endless Sacrifice, Sacrificed Sons, etc. The "tickle" section would probably show up in the middle of the track, maybe towards the end of a solo or something.

This Is The Life: I dunno. This one is pretty much Petrucci's thing. I don't see it changing too much, or at least for the better.

Bridges In The Sky: Much longer instrumental section, probably like Nightmare or TDEN. By the same token, I'd be surprised if this one also didn't have lots of MP vocals like those two tracks. On a related note, I remember JP saying he wrote more melodic vocals for TDEN originally, and I'd love to hear that arrangement at some point.

Outcry: Hah. I dunno. The instrumental doesn't sound like something Mike would enjoy playing. I have no idea what this song would sound like.

Far From Heaven, Breaking All Illusions, and Beneath The Surface: This would all be one twenty minute long epic. It'd be good, but a little incoherent at times.


My best guess.

[KevShmev]

The album still would have been good (since every DT album is, at worst, good), but I am pretty sure if would have been this good.  Like bosk1 said, the band were on a mission to prove themselves, and most bands produce their best material when they feel like they have something to prove. 

Plus, the absence of gang/shouting/Portnoy vocals was definitely a positive thing.  With the voice JLB has, having him back doing ALL of the lead vocals is the way it should be, and the overall vocal melodies benefited greatly as a result. 

Lastly, like has been said, none of the songs feel like they are too long or were stretched out unnecessarily, which was a problem on the three or four albums prior to ADTOE.  It seemed like every one of those albums had at least one or two songs that could have been much better had it been trimmed a bit to be more concise. 

Overall, ADTOE sounds like a lot like the band that I went nutty over back in the 90s.  All of the elements that were such a strength back then are present again, and many of the elements that I wasn't overly fond of on the newer stuff are gone.

[?]

I think had MP stayed in the band, we would've probably heard more stuff like SC and BC&SL, which are in my bottom 3 DT albums, so it's good that things changed.

[Tick]

The thing is, even if MP was pushing for something else, there are still 4 other guys in the band that could have said they didn't like it and try to create something different. It's like MP was an evil terrifying guy in the studio.

I just think the other 4 are passive and Mike is a control freak. It seems he usually gets his way. Hell, he wrote Neal Morse's US Tour set list for him based on what he wanted to play! That tells you all you need to know.
Mike=control.

[Jamariquay]

The thing is, even if MP was pushing for something else, there are still 4 other guys in the band that could have said they didn't like it and try to create something different. It's like MP was an evil terrifying guy in the studio.

I just think the other 4 are passive and Mike is a control freak. It seems he usually gets his way. Hell, he wrote Neal Morse's US Tour set list for him based on what he wanted to play! That tells you all you need to know.
Mike=control.

To be fair, Transatlantic has like five songs total.

[Nekov]

The thing is, even if MP was pushing for something else, there are still 4 other guys in the band that could have said they didn't like it and try to create something different. It's like MP was an evil terrifying guy in the studio.

I just think the other 4 are passive and Mike is a control freak. It seems he usually gets his way. Hell, he wrote Neal Morse's US Tour set list for him based on what he wanted to play! That tells you all you need to know.
Mike=control.

I'm pretty sure if Neal was not OK with that set list he would have raised his voice. I think Transatlantic is a pretty good example on how it doesn't matter that MP is a control freak cause it's pretty clear that the driving forces there are Neal and Roine.
And regarding the other 4 guys being passive, that also contributed to making Octavarium, SC and BC&SL what they ended up being so please let's stop putting all the blame on Mike.

[johncal]

 I would say it's pretty clear that dt finally did put their foot down based on the results we now enjoy.

[Super Dude]

it was time for a change.

[The Letter M]

The thing is, even if MP was pushing for something else, there are still 4 other guys in the band that could have said they didn't like it and try to create something different. It's like MP was an evil terrifying guy in the studio.

I just think the other 4 are passive and Mike is a control freak. It seems he usually gets his way. Hell, he wrote Neal Morse's US Tour set list for him based on what he wanted to play! That tells you all you need to know.
Mike=control.

To be fair, Transatlantic has like five songs total.

Don't think he meant TA, but Neal's recent US tour for Testimony 2, and to think on it more, the songs were very either very heavy ("Leviathan" and the Sola Scriptura medley) or very long ("Lifeline", "Seeds Of Gold" and the T1-Part 5 section), and many of them feature Mike on some short solo spots with exposed fills.

And I agree, if Neal didn't like the set list, he would have said something, but it's possible Neal is just as passive as the guys in DT were with Mike, so Neal may have just let him have that one.

-Marc.

[Jamariquay]

Oh, that was for Neal Morse' own solo tour? Good thing Neal Morse also has like five songs.









Neal Morse actually has more than five songs.

[bosk1]

Let me just add one little tidbit on the "passive" issue.  I think John P. comes across in interviews and videos as a happy-go-lucky, laid back, kind of guy.  But having sat down with him and discussed the business side of things a bit, it became very obvious to me very quickly that he is anything but passive.  He is a very strong personality--he just isn't "in your face about it."  He may choose to keep silent at times and take the path of least resistance when he believes that is the best outcome for everyone involved.  But after talking with him for quite awhile, I would never use the term "passive" to describe him.  I can see why people might think he was, but I think it's a mistake to assume that. 

[The Letter M]

Oh, that was for Neal Morse' own solo tour? Good thing Neal Morse also has like five songs.









Neal Morse actually has more than five songs.

Well, if you count most of his albums as one "song" because they're all concept albums of some sort (Testimony, One, ?, Sola Scriptura, Testimony 2), you could say he has only "five songs"...



-Marc.

[DebraKadabra]

^ Yep.  Spot on description of what we saw too.
(this was meant in response to bosk)

[Super Dude]

Whoa bosk, when did you talk to John?

[TAC]

I don't think a passive person would be able to tell MP that they were heading into the studio with or without him.

[bosk1]

I don't think a passive person would be able to tell MP that they were heading into the studio with or without him.

Point, set, match.

[darkshade]

Dominici-era
Moore-era
Sherinian-era
Rudess-era
Portnoy-era
Mangini-era

If this album still had Portnoy on it, it would obviously be part of the "Portnoy era", even if they still made it more melodic and prog than the last 2 albums. MP had no say in ADTOE, so no matter what, there would have been some differences.
But I don't understand some opinions; yes there was a bit of a greater emphasis on metal riffs, but there's just as much prog and melodious moments as any of their previous albums.

And it's not like MP was this big bully in the studio. Aside from maybe Myung, I'm sure if someone had a problem with a section of music, they would have spoken up. However, I think it's true that MP was being a little more proactive in pushing the band's music in a more "metal" direction.

[darkshade]

Oh, that was for Neal Morse' own solo tour? Good thing Neal Morse also has like five songs.






Neal Morse actually has more than five songs.

Well, if you count most of his albums as one "song" because they're all concept albums of some sort (Testimony, One, ?, Sola Scriptura, Testimony 2), you could say he has only "five songs"...



-Marc.

Each Testimony album is really groups of tracks as part of one song, so like T2 has 3 songs (not counting the 2nd disc), and T1 has 5(?). "?" is obviously one song, but albums like One, SS, or Lifeline, are clearly made of individual songs (SS is more like a suite).