Snare-HiHat

[Infinite Cactus]

Wait..................



you can actually hear the high hats?


But seriously, his playing is fine. You just can't hear most of it.

lol got it the first time captain.

[ResultsMayVary]

He played what ended up fitting the best for what the other guys were doing. It's about making good music, not making crazy parts for the sake of crazy.

Good God, this.

I agree, but at the same time... It's Dream Theater.
They do make some sections to be 'crazy just for the sake of being crazy'...
Nobody can deny that.

Lost Not Forgotten tickle section and Outcry instrumental section. Two sections on the album who are both absolutely insane. And EVERYONE (with the exception of LaBrie since he has no singing there) shines and is doing something beyond the ability of the majority of musicians.

The point is that they don't need to be doing crazy ALL the time. This album is so great because (1) it's an essential return to form for DT, (2) there's nothing too ridiculous, and (3) that everyone has their time to shine and the album is balanced.

I'm just gonna quote your post for emphasis in DT side from now on. I got your back.

[Bertielee]

Wait..................



you can actually hear the high hats?


But seriously, his playing is fine. You just can't hear most of it.

lol got it the first time captain.

Yeah, that's what I wanted to say too : Blob, we have seen it the first time, no need to post it 2 times in a row. You beggin' for attention, Bro! Ain't ya?

B.Lee

[BlobVanDam]

Oh I only just noticed what you were referring to. Sorry about that. My internet has been cutting out like crazy the past 4-5 days, so it accidentally double posted.

[Dreamer81]

Wait..................



you can actually hear the high hats?


But seriously, his playing is perfectly fine. You just can't hear most of it.

this is my only issues with the drums, if you heart o the stems of OTBOA, there is so much stuff going on that is buried on the final mix.

[LKap13]

If we assume that ADTOE is indeed Mangini to his max, then I guess it's a testament to the fact that superior technical ability doesn't necessarily equal superior creativity/writing ability.

Still, I'm quite hoping that DT'12 will see a looser, freer MM, so to speak.

[dongringo]

This is probably going to sound ignorant, but I don't really notice much of a difference.  I'm not a musician (obviously), but it seems to me that awesome drums have been replaced by awesome drums.  This album has its own sound, so to me, all the instruments sound different - even James sounds different.  I guess what I'm saying is, if I didn't know Portnoy had left, I wouldn't necessarily have noticed - any difference I would have chalked up to them trying something new.  Which is fine by me - that's not a dig at Mangini at all.  I loved the way DT sounded before, I love it now.

Yeah, as a fellow non-musician, I feel the same.

I'm not a musician, but to me the playing style between MP and MM is like the difference between night and day, it's so obvious. But, personally, I like Mangini's playing with DT better. It's his nuances and polyrhrythmic stuff here and there that makes him sound unique and balanced. Balance is the key to this album. I agree with the poster who said that on ADTOE everyone gets their chance to shine at different moments, not all at once, and this includes MM.

[nikatapi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zb4EuMG3hM

I believe this is enough proof that MM is more than awesome.

[LKap13]

It's awesome because it's MM playing DT, but I'd love it if there was less unison-style and cymbal/hihat "pedal" grooves. (When I say "pedal" grooves, I mean steady, continuous hits of the cymbals or hihats with his right hand -- basically what I was referring to in the OP)

As I see it on ADTOE:
1) Instead of complementing the complex musical part, there tends be a unison feel
2) Steady, continuous (pedal-like) hits of cymbals/hihats as a way to keep time

[WindMaster]

The only pattern that is slightly weird/simplistic, from a drummer's point of view, is the last chorus of BAI. It just doesn't work for me.

That fits with the chorus though. And thats what matters

[cyberdrummer]

To me it doesn't fit though. If the hats were slightly more open, or he was riding the crash, then it could have worked. 'Riding' the partially closed hi-hat sounds a little amateurish to me, especially at such a climactic part of the song.

But like I said, it's a minor gripe, and it probably bothers me more because I'm a drummer myself.

[dongringo]

To me it doesn't fit though. If the hats were slightly more open, or he was riding the crash, then it could have worked. 'Riding' the partially closed hi-hat sounds a little amateurish to me, especially at such a climactic part of the song.

But like I said, it's a minor gripe, and it probably bothers me more because I'm a drummer myself.

You're a drummer and you're calling Mangini's drumming amateurish? 

[WildeSilas]

ITT some people still don't get that percussion instructors 200 years from now will probably reqiure students to study the works of Krupa, Peart, and Mangini.

@cyberdrummer - I agree about riding the open hats right there. Very strange choice...

[WindMaster]

To me it doesn't fit though. If the hats were slightly more open, or he was riding the crash, then it could have worked. 'Riding' the partially closed hi-hat sounds a little amateurish to me, especially at such a climactic part of the song.

But like I said, it's a minor gripe, and it probably bothers me more because I'm a drummer myself.

I think it sounds good, and I don't think he is riding the hats, i think he is just playing them open. But hopefully they will release stems and we can listen more closely.

[hefdaddy42]

To me it doesn't fit though. If the hats were slightly more open, or he was riding the crash, then it could have worked. 'Riding' the partially closed hi-hat sounds a little amateurish to me, especially at such a climactic part of the song.

But like I said, it's a minor gripe, and it probably bothers me more because I'm a drummer myself.

I'm a drummer, and it doesn't bother me.

[reneranucci]

If we assume that ADTOE is indeed Mangini to his max, then I guess it's a testament to the fact that superior technical ability doesn't necessarily equal superior creativity/writing ability.

Still, I'm quite hoping that DT'12 will see a looser, freer MM, so to speak.

Agreed completely. MM is excellent overall but not the most creative player out there.

[ResultsMayVary]

If we assume that ADTOE is indeed Mangini to his max, then I guess it's a testament to the fact that superior technical ability doesn't necessarily equal superior creativity/writing ability.

Still, I'm quite hoping that DT'12 will see a looser, freer MM, so to speak.

Agreed completely. MM is excellent overall but not the most creative player out there.

No one has specifically stated that MM was the most creative drummer to walk the Earth. Although, he is very good at what he does.

[King Postwhore]

I don't get you two.   Not creative enough?  Talk about over analyzing.

[dongringo]

I don't get you two.   Not creative enough?  Talk about over analyzing.

[metropofreak]

MM has done an unbelievable amount of subtle stuff on this album. You really have to listen very carefully to pick it out.

For instance, on BAI from 1.13 to 1.30, the guitar riff often works around groups of three. Listening to the bass drum pattern, you realise that they sometimes play off the guitars groups of three, and so near the start of the phrase it makes a full group of six. I think little things like that have a whole lot more creativity behind them than most may think.

That said, I may not have picked this out if I hadn't learned the song.

[cyberdrummer]

To me it doesn't fit though. If the hats were slightly more open, or he was riding the crash, then it could have worked. 'Riding' the partially closed hi-hat sounds a little amateurish to me, especially at such a climactic part of the song.

But like I said, it's a minor gripe, and it probably bothers me more because I'm a drummer myself.

I'm a drummer, and it doesn't bother me.

I'm not saying that it should bother every drummer - my point is that BECAUSE I'm a drummer it sticks out more so. Even if I didn't play drums I'd still dislike that bit.

To me it doesn't fit though. If the hats were slightly more open, or he was riding the crash, then it could have worked. 'Riding' the partially closed hi-hat sounds a little amateurish to me, especially at such a climactic part of the song.

But like I said, it's a minor gripe, and it probably bothers me more because I'm a drummer myself.

You're a drummer and you're calling Mangini's drumming amateurish? 

You're equating my labelling one moment amateurish to Mangini's drumming in general? That's not what I said. I simply think that beat is something you might, for example,  find a 13 year old playing a lot. It's not very ... interesting, I guess. [/controversial opinion]

[Elaitch]

You're equating my labelling one moment amateurish to Mangini's drumming in general? That's not what I said. I simply think that beat is something you might, for example,  find a 13 year old playing a lot. It's not very ... interesting, I guess. [/controversial opinion]

I wonder why that may be... maybe because it's a standard technique?
Besides, I don't get why you would ever doubt Mangini's ability to decide what beats fits into sections of songs? Remember that you're critisizing a man who's been a professor at a music college, and who has taught music for many years.
There's a time for crazyness, and there's a time for being more laid back. I'd say a big part of being creative and masterful on an instrument and music in general is being able to judge when it is suitable to go crazy and when it is suitable to just back up the song with a simple beat, something that Mangini is evidently very good at, judging from the testimonies given by for example JP, about the time he spent in the studio with Mangini.

[cyberdrummer]

I'm not saying I wanted something crazy, just something a bit more interesting.

Also, music by its nature is completely subjective - obviously theoretically Mangini has a 'better' opinion than I do, but if I don't like that beat, then I'm perfectly entitled to say so. It's only my opinion. And I'm clearly not criticising Mangini as a drummer, having seen DT live three times since he's been in the band, I KNOW that he's incredible. I simply don't agree with one decision he made.

[tartarus250]

us dt fans are used to hearing the drums up loud and proud in the mix and rightly or wrongly this time they have been mixed a wee bit too quietly imhop but we must all surely see that mm is a drummer of epic proportions the more i strain to hear what he is playing the more i want to really hear what he is playing!!! his locked in really tight to the other players in a way that i think is very musical! i think he has worked very "haaad" and produced something great and really supported the rest of the guys to make something great!! on the whole i think he deserves hi new title of the GENIEus  

[WildeSilas]

I for one totally agree with cyber about the open hat thing. It's something you hear mostly from amateur drummers who haven't yet learned to control their left foot very well. Obviously MM did it purposly there, and I don't follow his line of thinking. I don't recall him using it on any other recording. As a drummer, it's a bit jarring because I associate it with sloppy playing - not the case here but still a really odd choice of sounds given the plethora of options available on MM's set. It's negligible because he plays so many other jaw-dropping things on this album. Maybe that's why it sticks out like a sore thumb.

[hefdaddy42]

Why do you associate it with sloppy playing?  It's a way to play the thing, I've heard hundreds of drummers play with it like that.

[WindMaster]

Hell, I play it like that.

[WildeSilas]

Ok, let me rephrase. *I* associate it with amateur drummers because it is common for beginners to play this way since they haven't mastered control of the left foot. It is also a techique common to punk and other more "messy" genres that tend to attract non-technical players. Doing it purposefully is a completely different thing, as in MM's (and I assume your) case. I actually can't think of another instance in the prog genre where wide open hats are used in place of more closed hats or a ride for eighth notes. All that together makes me say it's an odd choice of sound for that part of the song.

[i am fabio]

I'm not saying I wanted something crazy, just something a bit more interesting.

Also, music by its nature is completely subjective - obviously theoretically Mangini has a 'better' opinion than I do, but if I don't like that beat, then I'm perfectly entitled to say so. It's only my opinion. And I'm clearly not criticising Mangini as a drummer, having seen DT live three times since he's been in the band, I KNOW that he's incredible. I simply don't agree with one decision he made.

I hear ya man and pretty much agree. im a guitarist/drummer and wouldnt have minded if the last chorus was a little more free. Lets open it up and add a more climactic sound there....maybe some runs or whatever but I do understand your point.

Having said that I think it's a great album and that MM did a Fuckin incredible job. He will only get better with the band!

[Bertielee]

I'm sorry to say it, but some posters here sound like music snobs. I like the way some say "it's not the right way to play it", 'it sounds amateurish"...Are you endowed with universal taste and knowledge? This thread turns out like the one started by Thiago about the I&W / ADToE comparison. Geez!

B.Lee

[gm5k]

I'm sorry to say it, but some posters here sound like music snobs.

I also hate to say it...but, um...we're on a DT forum 

[Bertielee]

I'm sorry to say it, but some posters here sound like music snobs.

I also hate to say it...but, um...we're on a DT forum 

Hey, I know it, I'm not a noob! BUT this bothers me none the less.

B.Lee

[missedthepoint]

I'm still not seeing what the OP is refering to saying that "that hihat snare pattern is stale".
What pattern exactly? I require clarification.

[jeebustrain]

I think everyone is missing my point...
I am just saying that Mike Mangini could have over-played the songs a little bit more, and some of the crazy things that he IS during is kind of buried in the mix.

The new record is fine as it is, I love it... It's one of my favourite albums of all time already.
And, I am in no way saying that the album sucks, or Mangini sucks.

one of the things that has turned me off for the last 4-5 DT albums is the mindless overplaying of Portnoy (and the endless lame unison lines he's seemed to encourage with JR and JP). The guy hasn't really learned anything new (technique-wise) in 15 years and has been recycling the same licks over and over - each time in more and more inappropriate places. It's very refreshing to hear a drummer that's actually trying to play to enhance song - not just for his own ego. That's the sign of a true professional.


Oh, and regarding MM needing to "prove" his abilities - pretty much any drummer out there could tell you that almost anything Mangini's done on this album is at a whole different level, technique-wise.

[WildeSilas]

I'm sorry to say it, but some posters here sound like music snobs. I like the way some say "it's not the right way to play it", 'it sounds amateurish"...Are you endowed with universal taste and knowledge? This thread turns out like the one started by Thiago about the I&W / ADToE comparison. Geez!

B.Lee

That's because you're trying to find offense with a simple observation. If Jordan played only arpeggios through an entire section, you could equally say that it's a simplistic technique typically employed by less experienced players. He's clearly not unexperienced and therefore did it for some other reason - he thought it fit. Is it not okay to question his choice and identify simple arpeggios with simpler styles of music? Or is it only okay to critisize MP's choices now, because it seems like anytime someone here makes an observation about a band member that doesn't include "OMG HE SUCKLES AT THE TEAT OF IMMORTALITY AND I MUST BEAR HIS CHILDREN" people get all indignent and stop trying to understand the criticism. All I'm saying is that wide open hats are indicative of simpler playing ala punk rock and are therefore an odd choice for a player of MM's proficiency. Can I say that without it being taken to mean that I think he sucks? My awe of MM is well documented in this forum and if someone can find a single punk rock album that doesn't employ this hi-hat technique, I'll recant and eat Cranky's hat.

Edit: for the record, Thiago is a good guy who also made an observation, and barely commented on his personal opinion about it. His timing sucked, but I don't think it's healthy to start using that incident as an example of unwarranted criticism against the band. It was an observation, much like mine that called into question some of DT's choices. It seems to me that it's fine to question MP's vocals, SC, etc. but other such criticisms aren't "sanctioned" and I'm sorry, but the noob in me doesn't get the subtle difference. In the end we all love DT, warts and all, so why the offense?