dream theater's influences

[lumpy33]

much is mentioned about d.t.'s recent albums (adtoe not withstanding) wearing too much of their influences on their sleeves in their writing, and that's contributing to folks thinking not so fondly of these recent releases.  can someone point out some specifics for me?  all i can muster up is the awesome metallica-like riff in the beginning of constant motion, but i love that.  it's certainly not a deterrent. 

[theseoafs]

much is mentioned about d.t.'s recent albums (adtoe not withstanding) wearing too much of their influences on their sleeves in their writing, and that's contributing to folks thinking not so fondly of these recent releases.  can someone point out some specifics for me?  all i can muster up is the awesome metallica-like riff in the beginning of constant motion, but i love that.  it's certainly not a deterrent.

You'll find a Muse-esque track in Prophets of War, but the eighth album is home to most of the complaints: you've got some U2, some Floyd, and some more Muse, along other things. As far as Black Clouds goes, I know DAY AFTER DAY was intentionally designed with Mikael Akerfeldt in mind.

[energythief]

Oh god, there's so many.


Solitary Shell = Peter Gabriel
The Great Debate = Tool
The Glass Prison = Megadeth (vocals) + Pantera
Parts of SFAM = Queen, Pink Floyd


Tons more, I'm sure somebody has all teh nuggetz.

[BlobVanDam]

much is mentioned about d.t.'s recent albums (adtoe not withstanding) wearing too much of their influences on their sleeves in their writing, and that's contributing to folks thinking not so fondly of these recent releases.  can someone point out some specifics for me?  all i can muster up is the awesome metallica-like riff in the beginning of constant motion, but i love that.  it's certainly not a deterrent. 

Most of them are greatly over-exaggerated because people want to find them. Octavarium has the only blatant ones, with IWBY which is very U2, and Never Enough is Muse. CM has some very Metallica inspired parts too, although it also has a lot that isn't.
Those are the only ones that to me are more than any other band does. And they've been copying U2 almost since the start, so this is nothing unique to modern DT.

[rumborak]

The one that blows the others out of the waters is still the Trial of Tears solo vs. UK's In the Dead of Night solo.

What I like about both BCSL and ADTOE is that it doesn't have blatant references. Sure, TCOT has a Pink Floydish section in it, but it's only in the vein of PF, not referencing a song directly. That's what always bugged me about some of the other "references", they referenced songs, not bands.

EDIT: Wait, TBOT bugged me somewhat for its blatant Rushiness.

rumborak

[Aquila Chrysaetos]

Guitar solo in Wither is as Brian May-ish as it gets.

[blackngold29]

I thought JR's take on this was interesting. The band didn't even hide it that they were modeling parts after different bands, but ADTOE was more like they were modeling stuff off of themselves.

https://youtu.be/jNTY0H-KEP4

[Rkeister]

another obvious one is the pink floyd and metallica in peruvian skies. I always thought that from the first time i heard it, then they did that live bit with have a cigar and enter sandman riffs, i was like holy crap!

[jingle.boy]

Trial of Tears and Xanadu are very similar in the intro.

[tweeg]

EDIT: Wait, TBOT bugged me somewhat for its blatant Rushiness.

rumborak

IMO This. But change "somewhat" to "immensely." There's an argument for The Spirit of Radio being the most well known prog rock intro, so it seems really daft that they'd rip off be greatly inspired by this riff and think no one would mind.

[Mechanix1911]

Trial of Tears and Xanadu are very similar in the intro.

No but Xanadu and The Count of Tuscany share a very similar melody. Right after the intro solo in TCOT.

[WildeSilas]

Muse is bad enough by themselves, but hearing DT trying to sound like them was almost more than I can take. For lack of a better explanation, all those parts in 8VM and SC with the redundant, electronica sounding crap and JLB's overly processed vocals (it's what Muse called their "style")? That's the Muse influenced stuff. Unfortunately, there's no "blowing my brains out" smiley icon to express my feelings about it. 

[Jaq]

There is nothing wrong with bands showing their influences. Hell, sometimes there's nothing wrong with a band blatantly showing its influences. One of my favorite 20 minute plus long songs is IQ's "Harvest of Souls", which might as well have been subtitled "We REALLY Like Supper's Ready by Genesis." There's nothing wrong with doing it once...but if IQ had followed that album up with an homage to Close to the Edge as the opener, I'd have gotten annoyed.

The problems with what DT started doing around SDOIT wasn't just the full songs-Never Enough and Prophets of War are Muse clones, I Walk Beside You is U2, As I Am only needs James ending every line with "yeah!" to be a Metallica song-it was that when their influences showed, it was blatant. TBOT doesn't just sound like Rush, it sounds like one of their best known songs. ANTR might as well have stamped on it MP was listening to Opeth when he came up with this bit. The Tool-like sections in The Great Debate are blatantly Tool-like. A band can record music that reflects influences while retaining identity-I always liked Peruvian Skies for whiplashing from Pink Floyd to Metallica, and I love how Surrounded sounds a great deal like early Marillion without cloning it. What bugged me from SDOIT to BC&SL was that the band veered from "these bands influence us" to "we're trying to SOUND like these bands." Glad ADTOE's has moved away from that.

[KevShmev]

Most of them are greatly over-exaggerated because people want to find them. Octavarium has the only blatant ones, with IWBY which is very U2, and Never Enough is Muse. CM has some very Metallica inspired parts too, although it also has a lot that isn't.
Those are the only ones that to me are more than any other band does. And they've been copying U2 almost since the start, so this is nothing unique to modern DT.

That is rubbish.  They have dozens of examples of borrowed riffs and melodies, which have been heard by many people.  Do you think everyone woke up and decided, "hmmm, let's find as many borrowed things in DT's songs as we can?"  Of course not.  They are heard by many people because they have a lot of moments that are clearly borrowed.  Given your music tastes, I am guessing that you don't hear most of them because you are not familiar with the original songs they came from.  Unless DT is now borrowing from Steelheart and the DLR band.

[BlobVanDam]

Never Enough and IWBY are definitely intended to sound like certain bands, but As I Am sounds nothing like Metallica, aside from being heavy.
Metallica aren't even known for mid/slow tempo stuff like that, and Hetfield would never sing a vocal melody with that kind of range, nor using that kind of melody (the last line of each bit is mixolydian, I think?). Hetfield usually sticks to the same 3 notes, rather than going up and down the full octave like As I Am. And they wouldn't do the low key pre-chorus with the spoken vocals. They'd just move up a step to F# and Hetfield would move to singing that one note instead.
You could make a better argument for the mid section of This Dying Soul, which is very similar to Blackened.

And from what I recall, TBOT didn't sound like Rush apart from that intro arpeggio, which did definitely sound inspired by that song, but musically isn't all that similar. (I heard the Rush song a total of once, which was already too much for me, so feel free to point out if there was more to it than just the arp).

And ANTR isn't really that much like Opeth either, except for those people who seem to confuse spoken vocals with growls. If there's a similarity, it's because they're both pretty heavy, but I don't hear any particular Opeth specific trait. Repentance sounds more like Opeth to me, but no more than the first verse of BAI, tbh.

Most of them are greatly over-exaggerated because people want to find them. Octavarium has the only blatant ones, with IWBY which is very U2, and Never Enough is Muse. CM has some very Metallica inspired parts too, although it also has a lot that isn't.
Those are the only ones that to me are more than any other band does. And they've been copying U2 almost since the start, so this is nothing unique to modern DT.

That is rubbish.  They have dozens of examples of borrowed riffs and melodies, which have been heard by many people.  Do you think everyone woke up and decided, "hmmm, let's find as many borrowed things in DT's songs as we can?"  Of course not.  They are heard by many people because they have a lot of moments that are clearly borrowed.  Given your music tastes, I am guessing that you don't hear most of them because you are not familiar with the original songs they came from.  Unless DT is now borrowing from Steelheart and the DLR band.

If you have to resort to insulting my musical tastes based on your extremely limited knowledge of what I even listen to, then it's clear you have an empty argument. It's group behaviour of people on this forum all discussing these things in a closed environment. You'll find that most opinions of this forum disappear once you enter the larger DT community, so your "many people" argument holds no water with me. A lot of these supposed borrowed riffs are nothing more than similar style, which is nothing unique to DT. All bands are influences by other bands.
I'm not denying there are a small handful that step into blatant territory, but it's definitely exaggerated, much like certain other criticisms of modern DT.

[El JoNNo]

I know DAY AFTER DAY was intentionally designed with Mikael Akerfeldt in mind.

No it wasn't. JP wrote it without growls there are recordings without it. JP was even adamant about not having growls. MP thought it didn't fit without them, That's why they went with the half growls.

[hefdaddy42]

The TDS/Blackened thing is kind of obvious.

As I Am is reminiscent of Metallica.

TBOT is definitely Rush-ish.

Constant Motion is Metallica-ish other than the instrumental section.

For that matter, a lot of ANTR sounds like Metallica to me.

[KevShmev]

BVD, I didn't insult your musical tastes (the Steelheart and DLR Band crack was a pun, hence the emoticons); I said, "Given your music tastes, I am guessing that you don't hear most of them because you are not familiar with the original songs they came from."  Which is absolutely true.  You yourself have admitted ad nauseam that you don't listen to most of the bands that DT has often been accused of borrowing from (Rush, Yes, Tool, Muse, Peter Gabriel, etc.).  Hearing a song once or twice doesn't really help, especially when many of us have heard the original songs AND the DT songs so much that they are both ingrained in our heads, thereby making it easier for us to detect extreme similarities.  For example, I wouldn't expect a non-Yes fan to listen to And You and I once and hear how similar JR's keyboard lead in Solitary Shell is to Wakeman's solo in it, but as someone who had probably heard And You And I hundreds of times before 6DOIT was released, as soon as I heard Solitary Shell, the similarity was very obvious on the first very listen.  That is just one example.

[BlobVanDam]

BVS, I didn't insult your musical tastes (the Steelheart and DLR Band crack was a pun, hence the emoticons); I said, "Given your music tastes, I am guessing that you don't hear most of them because you are not familiar with the original songs they came from."  Which is absolutely true.  You yourself have admitted ad nauseam that you don't listen to most of the bands that DT has often been accused of borrowing from (Rush, Yes, Tool, Muse, Peter Gabriel, etc.).  Hearing a song once or twice doesn't really help, especially when many of us have heard the original songs AND the DT songs so much that they are both ingrained in our heads, thereby making it easier for us to detect extreme similarities.  For example, I wouldn't expect a non-Yes fan to listen to And You and I once and hear how similar JR's keyboard lead in Solitary Shell is to Wakeman's solo in it, but as someone who had probably heard And You And I hundreds of times before 6DOIT was released, as soon as I heard Solitary Shell, the similarity was very obvious on the first very listen.  That is just one example.

When they're vague comparisons such as "such and such sounds like band A", then you'd be right. But in many cases, people are comparing to specific songs, as you would if it apparently sounds that close to another song, and I do not need to be a fan of a band to make an A/B comparison with my own ears. When songs are mentioned, I always listen to the song to judge for myself whether or not I hear a similarity.

Obviously I'm not going to hear a similarity to Rush when I first listen to a DT song, because as you said, it's not my kind of music. But I spend a lot of time on this forum, so I know all of the comparisons, and if people say "TBOT is copying this specific Rush song", then I'm going to listen to it.
For example, you just mentioned the Solitary Shell keyboard solo, and I've never heard the Yes song. So I am listening to it right now, and heard the bit you mentioned. And I hear the similarity, and see why it would have made you think of it. But it's an influence no different to what every band in history has done. It's the same keyboard instrument, and similar leaps in interval to create that slidey sound. But musically there is zero similarity in what the keyboard is doing melodically, or phrase-wise, or what the accompaniment is doing. There isn't enough there to say it's clear JR was being influenced by that song. Just enough to say that JR is influenced by Wakeman. This is not DT "wearing an influence on their sleeve" to me, and not any more than pre-SFAM albums. This is a band influenced by prog bands that came before them.

Often I'll hear a similarity in style that is nothing more than an influence that you'd hear many other bands also do. Often I'll hear no similarity at all. Only very few times have I ever heard one of these songs and thought "wow, they were trying to copy this song". I don' know Muse, but when pointed out, I agree with the Muse comparison 100% on NE. Same with IWBY. If a DT song is that close to another song that people can name the song that is being copied, then my musical opinion is going to be every bit as valid as anyone else's, regardless of what else I listen to.

And I'm a big enough Metallica fan to recognize that many of the Metallica accusations (which is one of the most mentioned bands for criticizing DT sounding like other bands) are not even in the ballpark. Not to take a dig at anyone here, but the thought of As I Am or ANTR sounding anything like Metallica is ridiculous to me. You would think from the way people talk sometimes that modern DT are literally nothing but blatantly copying Muse and Metallica. And I repeat my point that it is over-exaggerated.

[ishak540m]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the pink floyd and zappa references in the breakdown of BTL.

[theseoafs]

Oh, here's another one for you: the first fast-paced riff in A Nightmare to Remember sounds sort of uncomfortably similar to the first fast-paced riff in the opening track on Metallica's Death Magnetic.

[Jaffa]

(I heard the Rush song a total of once, which was already too much for me, so feel free to point out if there was more to it than just the arp).

I've had a bit of trouble following all of this, but does 'the Rush song' here refer to The Spirit of Radio?  Because, if so,  .

[theseoafs]

I know DAY AFTER DAY was intentionally designed with Mikael Akerfeldt in mind.

No it wasn't. JP wrote it without growls there are recordings without it. JP was even adamant about not having growls. MP thought it didn't fit without them, That's why they went with the half growls.

I know that, buddy, but as MP originally intended it, they were supposed to be full-on Akerfeldt growls.

https://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/tm.aspx?high=&m=2352022&mpage=1#2352022

2. I really kept hearing a Mikael Akerfeldt type Opeth death growl (yes, cookie monster vocals - sorry Setlist Scotty!) Like em or hate em, the section was really calling for it to my ears (listen to the instrumental version and you'll hear what I mean...)
The thought crossed my mind to ask Mikael himself to do it, but then I figured I'd end up having to do it live every night on tour, so it might as well be me on the CD....

[Jaq]

And I'm a big enough Metallica fan to recognize that many of the Metallica accusations (which is one of the most mentioned bands for criticizing DT sounding like other bands) are not even in the ballpark. Not to take a dig at anyone here, but the thought of As I Am or ANTR sounding anything like Metallica is ridiculous to me. You would think from the way people talk sometimes that modern DT are literally nothing but blatantly copying Muse and Metallica. And I repeat my point that it is over-exaggerated.

I'll give you ANTR...but good god how can someone listen to As I Am and not hear Metallica? It's practically a love letter to the Black Album.

[energythief]

Wow, re-reading Mike's post on his forum makes me really really grateful we have Mangini now.  "The truth is, *anybody* can sing..." Um, no. No, Mike, they obviously can't. 




On topic, Anna Lee is practically Elton John.

[lithium112]

Wow, re-reading Mike's post on his forum makes me really really grateful we have Mangini now.  "The truth is, *anybody* can sing..." Um, no. No, Mike, they obviously can't. 




On topic, Anna Lee is practically Elton John.

I love taking quotes out of context too. From the same post by MP: James' cleaner vocals are needed. Wait, what? So he thought that part should've had JLB's vocals over it? I'm confused. Oh right, it's cuz I just chopped 5 words at random out of a paragraph.

MP's point is that the quality of a singer is measured not only by their technical ability, but also by the character and emotional delivery they can bring to the vocals. Clearly the feeling he wanted to convey was a heavy, driving aggression, which he achieved. Whether you think that's the feeling necessary at that part of the song is a completely different story, but taking a random quote out of context to try to make him look bad is not the way to present an argument.

[energythief]

Wow, re-reading Mike's post on his forum makes me really really grateful we have Mangini now.  "The truth is, *anybody* can sing..." Um, no. No, Mike, they obviously can't. 




On topic, Anna Lee is practically Elton John.

I love taking quotes out of context too. From the same post by MP: James' cleaner vocals are needed. Wait, what? So he thought that part should've had JLB's vocals over it? I'm confused. Oh right, it's cuz I just chopped 5 words at random out of a paragraph.

Can I play too? I'll add the previous four words you deleted from your quote:



"sometimes a contrast to James' cleaner vocals are needed"


Wow, you're right! Taking things out of context really does change their meaning. Let's pretend we both read the same article and understand what was said.

[lithium112]

Can I play too? I'll add the previous four words you deleted from your quote:



"sometimes a contrast to James' cleaner vocals are needed"


Wow, you're right! Taking things out of context really does change their meaning. Let's pretend we both read the same article and understand what was said.

I can't really tell if you're agreeing with me or not

Anyway, on the original topic, I have to say that the most blatantly "influenced" song is Never Enough. IWBY is probably a close second, tied with Solitary Shell. The others.. eh - IMO it's up to interpretation.

[commanderbob]

Never Enough is literally a Muse song written and performed by Dream Theater.  And Octavarium, while my favorite song of theirs, is not really a DT song at all.

[Jaffa]

I've always felt that certain parts of Panic Attack had some heavy shades of Muse.  I mean, not as heavy as Never Enough, but still noticeable for me.  JLB's vocals and the way he slides into certain notes ("Run, try to hide, overwhelmed, by this complex delirium...") always remind me of Matthew Bellamy.  Plus parts of the song remind me musically of Muse's Hysteria, but I've never been able to pinpoint exactly why, so it's possible that it's just something to do with the fact that the word 'hysteria' appears in the lyrics.

At any rate, I always feel like PA has some Muse influence.

Then again, I think of Tool when I listen to This Dying Soul.  So, maybe I'm just an idiot. 

[theseoafs]

Never Enough is literally a Muse song written and performed by Dream Theater.  And Octavarium, while my favorite song of theirs, is not really a DT song at all.

You realize this doesn't make any sense, don't you?

[Dusk Till Dawn]

ANTR reminds me of an experience.  I was 10 year old and got hit by a truck.  It was a really bad accident.  I was in the hospital for a month.  The song definitively sang about that time.  Bathing in beautiful agony.

[The Silent Cody]

My ex-girlfriend was official DT hater. She used to said that DT sounds like a mix of Metallica/Korn/System Of A Down/Genesis and Queen

[commanderbob]

Never Enough is literally a Muse song written and performed by Dream Theater.  And Octavarium, while my favorite song of theirs, is not really a DT song at all.

You realize this doesn't make any sense, don't you?

Well, I am EXTREMELY tired and incoherent today, so I see what you mean.  For Never Enough, I should say "figuratively" or "basically" not "literally."  And as for Octavarium, I've always looked at it like this:  if someday they wrote and composed a Brazilian jazz piece and played it in that style and then recorded it and put it on a DT album, it may or may not be awesome, but wouldn't be a "DT" song.

[theseoafs]

Never Enough is literally a Muse song written and performed by Dream Theater.  And Octavarium, while my favorite song of theirs, is not really a DT song at all.

You realize this doesn't make any sense, don't you?

Well, I am EXTREMELY tired and incoherent today, so I see what you mean.  For Never Enough, I should say "figuratively" or "basically" not "literally."  And as for Octavarium, I've always looked at it like this:  if someday they wrote and composed a Brazilian jazz piece and played it in that style and then recorded it and put it on a DT album, it may or may not be awesome, but wouldn't be a "DT" song.

Except for the Pink Floyd intro, I don't get the sense that anything in Octavarium (the song) is derivative.