Why wasn't "Caught In a Web" as popular as "PMU" during the early 90's?

[Vajra]

"Caught In a Web" seems like such a radio friendly song, it's catchy and fun as hell to listen to. I'm really surprised it didn't receive the same kind of attention during the release of Awake that "Pull Me Under" received.

[WildeSilas]

One word: Nirvana

[WaterToFire]

I am not a student of late twentieth century popular music phenomena, but Pull Me Under is a much better song than Caught in a Web as far as I'm concerned.

[Jamesman42]

It was probably too dated for that time period. It sounds sorta 80's-ish to me.

[AngelBack]

Once upon a time there was a place where muscians/artists could display their craft. This medium was called the "public airwaves".   But then came the dark overlords, known as program directors.  (see 2112 v. Rush for the rest of the story).

[gm5k]

I like CIAW so much more than PMU, always have ever since I heard Awake. 

I don't see CIAW sounding dated (for it's time) one bit...ahead of it's time in many ways IMO.

[jeebustrain]

One word: Nirvana

Most definitely this..

As someone who was going to high school when Awake came out, I can tell you... There was no way a song like that was ever going to get mainstream play with what was the popular style at the time - male tenor style vocals were out, guitar solos were gone, and there was nowhere near enough flannel on them in the video.

[Mosh]

One word: Nirvana

[Cranky]

One word: Nirvana

Most definitely this..

As someone who was going to high school when Awake came out, I can tell you... There was no way a song like that was ever going to get mainstream play with what was the popular style at the time - male tenor style vocals were out, guitar solos were gone, and there was nowhere near enough flannel on them in the video.

Hahaha, it's a shame though. I mean.. I know music is subjective, but the fact that even in the present time, a lot of kids, I'd say 99% of the ones I went to school with, have no respect for music like Dream Theater.. They immediately point out that the singer has a "gay" voice, or the songs are too long, or they complain about the "lame keyboard parts".

I suppose that's part of DT's charm, though. You know?

[ytserush]

For what it's worth Eddie Trunk loves that song.

It was the second single released from Awake after Lie and before The Silent Man.


I've only ever heard it on Eddie Trunk's show and mostly when Portnoy's been on.

[WildeSilas]

Hahaha, it's a shame though. I mean.. I know music is subjective, but the fact that even in the present time, a lot of kids, I'd say 99% of the ones I went to school with, have no respect for music like Dream Theater.. They immediately point out that the singer has a "gay" voice, or the songs are too long, or they complain about the "lame keyboard parts".

Also part of the Nirvana effect, the ripples of which are still felt to this very day. If you weren't around in 1990-91, there's no way to explain how quickly and radically the entire music scene and industry changed almost literally overnight.

[chrisbDTM]

such a badass song


TRY TO PUSH ME ROUNNDDDDDD ...


spider fingers instrumental part, also awesome.

[darkshade]

One word: Nirvana

Most definitely this..

As someone who was going to high school when Awake came out, I can tell you... There was no way a song like that was ever going to get mainstream play with what was the popular style at the time - male tenor style vocals were out, guitar solos were gone, and there was nowhere near enough flannel on them in the video.

Add the fact that keyboards were out too, and you nailed it.

1994 sucked

[Cranky]

Hahaha, it's a shame though. I mean.. I know music is subjective, but the fact that even in the present time, a lot of kids, I'd say 99% of the ones I went to school with, have no respect for music like Dream Theater.. They immediately point out that the singer has a "gay" voice, or the songs are too long, or they complain about the "lame keyboard parts".

Also part of the Nirvana effect, the ripples of which are still felt to this very day. If you weren't around in 1990-91, there's no way to explain how quickly and radically the entire music scene and industry changed almost literally overnight.

I wasn't even born until '92, but I only exclusively listened to 80's music when I was younger, mostly metal and glam rock, and after a lot of research and poking around out of curiosity.. I noticed that a LOT of the bands that were HUGE in the 80's didn't even make it after '89 was over,
Mostly the glam and pop bands.. It's like once the 90's hit, anything from the 80's was just yesterdays paper and everyone didn't even want to listen to it anymore..

I don't get trends, man. 

[lithium112]

I feel like the prevalence of the keyboard in Caught in a Web significantly decreases its commercial appeal. Specifically the melodies it's playing. I dunno, maybe it's just me, but there is something distinctly "80's prog" about those key lines. PMU is a lot more appealing to the casual consumer.

And yeah, probably the fact that the music scene was ruined by Nirvana (IMO the worst yet somehow most influential grunge band).

[Mladen]

It should have been a huge hit. It's just as good as PMU. 

[obscure]

PMU is a lot more appealing to the casual consumer.

whereas Caught in a Web is an awesome song....

[The Silent Cody]

It was bad time for that kind of songs like CIAW. CIAW is 7 string heavy killer live song, it just couldn't work out next to Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Alice In Chains success... Pull Me Under is definitly more catchy. Not better IMO

[Hal Incandenza]

It's like once the 90's hit, anything from the 80's was just yesterdays paper and everyone didn't even want to listen to it anymore..

I don't get trends, man. 

People overreact.  It's right there under breathing on the list of things we do most and best.  For years, pop music (not just rock) had been getting bigger, flashier, and more bloated.  Big hair, big videos, big stage shows, everything was big.  Smells Like Teen Spirit hit, and it was like getting smacked in the face.  People genuinely liked the music, and the style, by its contrast, suddenly showed people just how bloated pop had become.

So did we react like rational beings and move forward with fashion and some new trends while remaining fully aware of the good aspects of what we'd thought was totally awesome 10 minutes before?  Hell no.  We showed exactly the same kind of restraint that had led us to foot-high hairsprayed bangs and Cherry Pie being a hit song and video, and we swept it all away and ushered in a new era where any sign of bombast or glam was treated with derision.  Bands found success or failure based on their ability to roll with the punches.  Pantera and Alice in Chains?  Not well known enough in their glam days to get called out for burying "Diamond Darrell" and the hairspray in the brave new world.  Winger?  Sorry, Kip.  You're dead to us now.  And if you like guitar solos?  Sorry man, you're hosed for the next couple decades.

[ZirconBlue]

Mostly the glam and pop bands.. It's like once the 90's hit, anything from the 80's was just yesterdays paper and everyone didn't even want to listen to it anymore..

I don't get trends, man. 

Yep.  DT was lucky to get their hit song in 1992, 'cause 1993 was the year America traded spandex for flannel.

[The Silent Cody]

It's like once the 90's hit, anything from the 80's was just yesterdays paper and everyone didn't even want to listen to it anymore..

I don't get trends, man. 

People overreact.  It's right there under breathing on the list of things we do most and best.  For years, pop music (not just rock) had been getting bigger, flashier, and more bloated.  Big hair, big videos, big stage shows, everything was big.  Smells Like Teen Spirit hit, and it was like getting smacked in the face.  People genuinely liked the music, and the style, by its contrast, suddenly showed people just how bloated pop had become.

So did we react like rational beings and move forward with fashion and some new trends while remaining fully aware of the good aspects of what we'd thought was totally awesome 10 minutes before?  Hell no.  We showed exactly the same kind of restraint that had led us to foot-high hairsprayed bangs and Cherry Pie being a hit song and video, and we swept it all away and ushered in a new era where any sign of bombast or glam was treated with derision.  Bands found success or failure based on their ability to roll with the punches.  Pantera and Alice in Chains?  Not well known enough in their glam days to get called out for burying "Diamond Darrell" and the hairspray in the brave new world.  Winger?  Sorry, Kip.  You're dead to us now.  And if you like guitar solos?  Sorry man, you're hosed for the next couple decades.

^ This, although I like Warrant's Cherry Pie and Uncle Tom's Cabin 

[jingle.boy]

One word: Nirvana

Actually, add a few more words.  Soundgarden, OLP, Offspring, Smashing Pumpkins, STP, Soul Asylum... Grunge took it's 15 minutes of fame for a couple of years.

Plus (IMO) this

Pull Me Under is a much better song than Caught in a Web as far as I'm concerned.

Plus, luck.  Some songs just catch hold and become viral, some don't.  Same thing happened with QR and Eyes of a Stranger.  Luckily for them, that was a couple of years earlier, and they followed it up with something much more commercial (Empire) than Awake was.  They likely would have fallen to the same fate if Mindcrime came out in '92.

"Diamond Dimebag Darrell"

[WildeSilas]

The weird thing to me about that transition from pop/metal to grunge is that while the media (specifically MTV, VH1, and Rolling Stone) immediately started treating metal as if it were an embarrassing, bygone conclusion, I was standing in line at Skid Row and Motley Crue shows with people wearing Alice in Chains and Soundgarden T-Shirts. Most people were perfectly happy to patronize both movements until Stewart started showing up on Beavis and Butthead with a Winger T-Shirt on. Suddenly, you were a nerd if you listened to anything pre-92. Sad thing is, most of those bands (Skid Row, Crue/Corabi, Winger, Warrant, Cinderella, etc.) released their most mature and well-written albums (minus the glam) AFTER Nirvana and grunge took over. But they were completely ignored. Even sadder that many of those bands would have never really been "glam" bands to begin with if the industry hadn't previously shut-out any one who didn't fit that image. Skid Row would have been more of a post-punk band with metal leanings. Winger would have been a prog-ish band with Kip's more "world" music influences. Warrant certainly wouldn't have worn matching white spandex. Cinderella would have sounded more like the Black Crowes. All good musicians with good influences who were forced to cram themselves into the glam-metal mold to make it on MTV, who then turned around, cut their throats and buried them in about 2-weeks period of time. There was no time to adapt or survive, it was just over.

"My bankroll's red, and my face is blue, and still they turn their backs on you for someone new..."

[ZirconBlue]

The weird thing to me about that transition from pop/metal to grunge is that while the media (specifically MTV, VH1, and Rolling Stone) immediately started treating metal as if it were an embarrassing, bygone conclusion, I was standing in line at Skid Row and Motley Crue shows with people wearing Alice in Chains and Soundgarden T-Shirts. Most people were perfectly happy to patronize both movements until Stewart started showing up on Beavis and Butthead with a Winger T-Shirt on. Suddenly, you were a nerd if you listened to anything pre-92. Sad thing is, most of those bands (Skid Row, Crue/Corabi, Winger, Warrant, Cinderella, etc.) released their most mature and well-written albums (minus the glam) AFTER Nirvana and grunge took over. But they were completely ignored. Even sadder that many of those bands would have never really been "glam" bands to begin with if the industry hadn't previously shut-out any one who didn't fit that image. Skid Row would have been more of a post-punk band with metal leanings. Winger would have been a prog-ish band with Kip's more "world" music influences. Warrant certainly wouldn't have worn matching white spandex. Cinderella would have sounded more like the Black Crowes. All good musicians with good influences who were forced to cram themselves into the glam-metal mold to make it on MTV, who then turned around, cut their throats and buried them in about 2-weeks period of time. There was no time to adapt or survive, it was just over.

"My bankroll's red, and my face is blue, and still they turn their backs on you for someone new..."

Excellent post!


There was a brief period, maybe a year, where the grunge and metal elements co-existed, before the backlash.  To me, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, et al, were just more "heavy" bands to enjoy. 

[jdprsaga]

grunge knock down metal / glam / hard rock / keys  to the floor in 93 - 94. It was easily noticeable during that time, after nirvana firsts singles, you would just not hear metal / glam / hard rock any longer on the radio any more worldwide. It even knock down dudes with very long hair...

So, DT had no chance to slam a hit, not even a roller, with any song in awake. The only one with posibilities was Silent Man, but after watching a video with some dudes with very long hair and dress like metal, there was no shot.

[WildeSilas]

This also provides quite a bit of insight into why both fans and the band feel a little funny about the FII period. DS joined the band - looking more like a "modern" pop guy than a metal guy, MP cut his hair, JLB cut his hair shorter than it had been, the label was pushing for shorter songs and trying to move DT away from their prog-metal image because it simply didn't fit into the landscape.

It even affected other prog bands at that time. Yes released Talk, their last album with Trevor Rabin and it was a huge flop - not because it didn't sound like Yes (it was like 90125 on crack) but because it simply couldn't be marketed to an industry obsessed with grunge. The poor sales and in-fighting led to Rabin leaving Yes for good. Even Rush's Counterparts featured heavy guitar with riffs more reminiscent of King's X and Soundgarden than of Rush's own sound (not a first for them - they tried to sound like The Police during the Signals era, so it wasn't so much trying to fit in for them, but rather experimenting with current sounds that they enjoyed).

Either way, it reminds me of what happened during the disco craze when everyone from KISS to Queen tried to adapt. Except that the disco craze was so short that most of those bands survived - disco was a bump in the road. Grunge was followed by alternative, followed by a LONG period of pop-tarts (Spears, Aguliera, Lopez, etc.) and boy bands, the rise of hip-hop, NU-Metal, and finally, 15 years later we're seeing a rise in popularity of bands like Rush, DT, Mastadon, Tool, etc. and a new "coolness" factor to classic bands like The Beatles, The Who, Zeppelin, etc. Not that some of those haven't maintained popularity during that whole time, but the media is starting to be less afraid of bands like DT and Mastadon these days.

[jingle.boy]

A couple of great posts WildeSilas.  Particularly

Sad thing is, most of those bands (Skid Row, Crue/Corabi, Winger, Warrant, Cinderella, etc.) released their most mature and well-written albums (minus the glam) AFTER Nirvana and grunge took over. But they were completely ignored. Even sadder that many of those bands would have never really been "glam" bands to begin with if the industry hadn't previously shut-out any one who didn't fit that image.

Dog Eat Dog (Warrant), Native Tongue (Poison), III Sides (Extreme) were all brilliant, breaking their previous mould/image, but got lost in the shift to the grunge movement.  Even some core Rock 'n' Roll bands like Van Halen, Aerosmith, Kiss and AC/DC got pushed aside.  Fortunately they had the fan base to 'stay the course' regardless.

And you're bang on with Skid Row.  Slave to the Grind and Subhuman Race are about as far from 'glam' as you can get.

[coffees for closers]

"Caught In a Web" seems like such a radio friendly song, it's catchy and fun as hell to listen to. I'm really surprised it didn't receive the same kind of attention during the release of Awake that "Pull Me Under" received.

This was actually the song that first turned me on the DT, I got into my car after playing 18 at Ashbrook and heard it on the raido WSOU for that channel is was radio friendly they played it all the time.

[Jaffa]

This is a very, very interesting thread.  Except I feel weird in that I currently happen to be wearing a Nirvana t-shirt, and everyone in this thread seems to either hate Nirvana, or hold them responsible for a dark age in music.  Hopefully nobody attacks me for being a fan. 

As for Caught in a Web, I don't think it would have been a big hit regardless of the current landscape of popular music.  I mean, don't get me wrong, I like CIAW - it's actually one of my favorite Dream Theater songs.  And it could have fit in reasonably well on hard rock radio stations.  To me, the simple fact is this: with Pull Me Under, they got lucky.  For Caught in a Web to find significant radio time, that would have been lightning striking twice. 

[bosk1]

Everything WildSilas said.  Plus, Caught In A Web isn't a very good song.

[jammindude]

I would speculate that it would have been bigger if it would have been the first single.     I think that sometimes everyone is proverbially "holding their breath" when a band tries to create a follow up to a huge hit single.     If the follow up isn't as good, then no one will stick around to listen to the third.

In this case, the follow up was Lie.   As much as I love Awake, I think most people agree that it is actually the weakest point on an otherwise stellar album.  I certainly feel (and I'm not alone) that Lie was an *EXTREMELY* poor choice for a first single from that album.   I think that if CIAW would have been the first single, sales of Awake would have initially been much different. 

(I also think "Lifting Shadows" should have been the second single...but what do I know?) 

[bosk1]

In this case, the follow up was Lie.   As much as I love Awake, I think most people agree that it is actually the weakest point on an otherwise stellar album.  I certainly feel (and I'm not alone) that Lie was an *EXTREMELY* poor choice for a first single from that album.   

What???  No way Lie is the weakest track on Awake.    You are entitled to your opinion, but you are definitely in the minority on that one.

[BlobVanDam]

In this case, the follow up was Lie.   As much as I love Awake, I think most people agree that it is actually the weakest point on an otherwise stellar album.  I certainly feel (and I'm not alone) that Lie was an *EXTREMELY* poor choice for a first single from that album.   

What???  No way Lie is the weakest track on Awake.    You are entitled to your opinion, but you are definitely in the minority on that one.

Really? I think it's pretty obviously one of the weaker tracks. Not the weakest for me, but definitely the beginning of the end for Awake to me.

[jonny108]

Yeah, I'd rank Lie quite near the bottom too.

[Hal Incandenza]

This is a very, very interesting thread.  Except I feel weird in that I currently happen to be wearing a Nirvana t-shirt, and everyone in this thread seems to either hate Nirvana, or hold them responsible for a dark age in music.  Hopefully nobody attacks me for being a fan.

I doubt that.  I'm a big fan of a bunch of bands from the grunge and alternative eras, and I kind of doubt that opinion is all that uncommon.  I don't regard that era as a dark one, I simply regret that a lot good bands got cut off in mid-career through no fault of their own.  I'm certainly a Nirvana fan, though I'm more partial to Alice in Chains and Soundgarden.