James' vocals in the last chorus of Beneath the Surface

[1neeto]

After reading this thread, I went and listened to Beneath the Surface with the specific intent to listen to that part and see if I could hear the problems others were hearing.  By the time I actually got to that part, I was too busy singing along to notice anything wrong. 

So I still have no idea what flaws anybody's talking about.

Me neither - I think it's a perfectly good way to end the song on a high note.

The autotune is there towards the end. It's very faint but it's there. Borderline impossible to hear unless you're really trying to hear it with earbuds on.

I second the comment about listening to a CD with a notepad next to you so you can note down the discrepancies is a very crappy way to "enjoy" music.

[CodyWanKenobi]

I enjoy that part, but I understand what you're saying. Maybe if Mangini came in with some drums for that last part, it wouldn't have sounded like he's shouting.

[kartmaze2]

I thought I was the only one who didn't overly enjoyed that part, and as I've said before in the big ADTOE discussion thread, I cringed quite a bit the first time I heard it. The only weak part of the album, IMO.

[Edan the Man]

I think its a perfect ending to the song, and wouldn't change it in any way. Anyone who disagrees IS WRONG AND SHOULD FEEL BAD ABOUT THEMSELVES FOR HAVING TERRIBLE WRONG OPINIONS

Only slightly exaggerating.



In all seriousness though, I do think it works well ending the song, and album.

[?]

I don't have any problem with the last chorus, it's fine.

[Perpetual Change]

I'll say it doesn't sounds as "perfect" as his vocals on the rest of the album.  But to me, that was the idea!  It's a vulnerable song and it's about showing you what's "beneath the surface," so they left it that way as sort of a symbolic thing.  I think it was meant to sound "real" and not spotlessly perfect like teh rest of his vocals.

That's close to what I thought after thinking about it the first time I heard it, and I like thinking of it this way. If this is true, James really did a great job capturing that emotion.

[autumn13]

I wouldn't change a thing.

[smegolas]

Its my favourite vocal moment on the album - gives me shivers.  I want more of this stuff from James.

[Cranky]

I agree with the OP, that part is a big let down.. It's such a weird contrast from the other softer song, Far From Heaven, where Jame's is singing really emotional and using lots of vibrato..

The last vocal part in Beneath The Surface has no dynamics, and it does sound a little off pitch and like it doesn't fit the music.. But on a more positive note...
Jordan's solo in the middle of the song, over that beautiful chord progression is incredible!!

[Riceball]

What I like: that they let him go for something with a bit of punch for the first time in a while.
What I don't like: where they let him do it.

[Fuzzboy]

i dunno, I heard him get louder and went "aww yeah now the whole thing's gonna get all epic"

and it didn't

but that's ok.

[theseoafs]

The "weird" sound, I get. And I can attribute it to two things, mainly:

1) AUTOTUNE. It's just egregious on this song and although in many cases (outside of "remained") isn't immediately noticeable, its heavy usage just doesn't sit well with me. You can just TELL that James wouldn't sound like that if he were next to you singing along.

2) The chords and melody themselves are kind of weird... melodically, that particular chorus (though beautiful, expressive, and in that moment incredibly powerful) is one of DT's most aimless in a very long time. It's just a weird melody over a weird progression which has no recognizable climax or musical destination.

It's certainly flawed... I don't know how I would fix it. I'm not listening to it right now, but off the top of my head the chords under "...darkness/And the darkness turned to pain/and never went away" are, if I'm not mistaken, vi - ii - vi - ii , which is so tonally aimless that it just plain sounds weird. As I mentioned before, the chorus doesn't build toward anything and doesn't make clear where the climax is; I'd classify the "embrace the days" section in BAI as having an incredibly strong progression with a certain tonal destination, whereas Beneath the Surface has the effective opposite of that.

Am I just imagining things? I really like the song, but the chorus of this song in general is a little funny to me because of reason 2, and reason 1 makes the final one particularly difficult.

[Cranky]

The "weird" sound, I get. And I can attribute it to two things, mainly:

1) AUTOTUNE. It's just egregious on this song and although in many cases (outside of "remained") isn't immediately noticeable, its heavy usage just doesn't sit well with me. You can just TELL that James wouldn't sound like that if he were next to you singing along.

2) The chords and melody themselves are kind of weird... melodically, that particular chorus (though beautiful, expressive, and in that moment incredibly powerful) is one of DT's most aimless in a very long time. It's just a weird melody over a weird progression which has no recognizable climax or musical destination.

It's certainly flawed... I don't know how I would fix it. I'm not listening to it right now, but off the top of my head the chords under "...darkness/And the darkness turned to pain/and never went away" are, if I'm not mistaken, vi - ii - vi - ii , which is so tonally aimless that it just plain sounds weird. As I mentioned before, the chorus doesn't build toward anything and doesn't make clear where the climax is; I'd classify the "embrace the days" section in BAI as having an incredibly strong progression with a certain tonal destination, whereas Beneath the Surface has the effective opposite of that.

Am I just imagining things? I really like the song, but the chorus of this song in general is a little funny to me because of reason 2, and reason 1 makes the final one particularly difficult.

Those are very good points, good observation.  I can say that I agree with you. 

[italianoman]

ACK, I'm completely with you TC! I've been bringing this up since the very first time I heard the song...James has a wrong note in each of the phrases he sings an octave higher. It's not because he missed the note, but rather, the auto-tuning snapped what should have been a smooth transition up a full step into three separate notes on three semi-tones with the middle being a minor third relative to the key (which is, obviously, out of tune), thus, for just a very brief second (brief as in it's only a portion of the word) he sings a jarringly wrong note before coming up to key (go to that part and replay it a bunch if you can't hear it at first). I love the song, but honestly, I can't stand those missed notes as, for me, they stick out so much so that I cringe every time I hear it, even if I'm not focused on the song and proper notes.

Anyways, I didn't have any problem with the energy the song, as a whole, is great.

[ironsam]

ACK, I'm completely with you TC! I've been bringing this up since the very first time I heard the song...James has a wrong note in each of the phrases he sings an octave higher. It's not because he missed the note, but rather, the auto-tuning snapped what should have been a smooth transition up a full step into three separate notes on three semi-tones with the middle being a minor third relative to the key (which is, obviously, out of tune), thus, for just a very brief second (brief as in it's only a portion of the word) he sings a jarringly wrong note before coming up to key (go to that part and replay it a bunch if you can't hear it at first). I love the song, but honestly, I can't stand those missed notes as, for me, they stick out so much so that I cringe every time I hear it, even if I'm not focused on the song and proper notes.

The part of the last chorus in the higher octave, "and began to forget..."?  The "be" in "began" is auto-tuned to get to the "gan" part?  If that's what you're trying to say, I am quite certain you are wrong.

[weezul]

favourite dream theater song in quite a while... yeah some intensity is missing at the end but apart from that it's all good. I like the chords, especially the iii into the keyboard solo. total nowhere man rip but hey, Beatles did everything first

[kon_jakae]

IMHO, it sounds like he was aback from the recording microphone while he was singing, in order to emit or belt out the phrase (not to sound like shouting directly to the mic) and also to intentionally create the sound that sounds like you are hearing it from the distance, and maybe with a little help of effects or techs added.

[Mladen]

I think the last chorus sounds good. It feels like he might have been a bit uncomfortable the moment he reached those higher tones in the beginning, but as he keeps going it just sounds better and better.

[gm5k]

seems to get off pitch for a moment...but yea I notice it every time, can't quite get used to it.  Still one of my favorite songs on the album.   It is my least favorite part of the song    (many others list it as a high point of the album)

[AtmosphericV]

How can anyone even complain on this song?


ITS PERFECT, and when Labrie went up that octave, it was the perfect climax to a truly good song.

Come on guys???    I was expecting endless praising of the song when I entered here!

Damn it, it was actually the biggest chills moment I had listening to the album, how could it be anti-climatic?

[Edan the Man]

How can anyone even complain on this song?


ITS PERFECT, and when Labrie went up and octave, it was the perfect climax to a truly good song.

Come on guys???    I was expecting endless praising of the song when I entered here!

Damn it, it was actually the biggest chills moment I had listening to the album, how could it be anti-climatic?

Yeah this is pretty much how I feel too.

[The Silent Cody]

I have to listen to it again, I was reading this thread yesterday and listening BTS two times from that time and I had noticed nothing... I like last chorus 

[rogerdil]

Fantastic song.  One of their recent best.

[Elaitch]

I don't think it sounds out of tune. If anything it is shamelessly in tune A bit over-processed, I would say.

[Jinova]

I love it, its perfect!    JLB could sing the phone book and it would be awesome to me 

[Major Thirteenth]

i got chills the first time i heard that part. good ending

Agree with this. The vocals are perfect. And if anything are underproduced, correctly so IMO. And very expressive and a perfect time to kick it up a register for effect. By the way, this song needs to be released as a single. It's David Cookish and I think it would be a top 40 hit. Roadrunner is not releasing any singles from this album as of now. That is wrong and needs to change.

[DT2003]

The first time I heard it, I thought it was a bit odd.  Now I think it's perfect!!!

[2Timer]

The only thing I would change is I would have had him sing the entire chorus an octave higher. I think it sounds a little out of place with that one line being low. Just a little unbalanced. Not a big deal though.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

its a symptom of singing out of your comfort zone

[zmazar]

It struck me right away, too. His vocals have so much power there but the music doesn't swell to match. Easily the biggest disappointment for me on the album.

It's actually the exact opposite for me.  I think he sounds amazing and I think it's a phenomenal ending to the album.

[DreamTheaterMoreThanMusic]

this  song brings tears to my eyes with how beautifull it is

[Implode]

Absolutely love this song. Everything about it is amazing.Might be my favorite on the album.

[Scorpion]

My second favourite off of ADTOE. I love it as it is.

[chrisbDTM]

love dat last chorus

[Kotowboy]

I love that part. No problem for me