James' vocals in the last chorus of Beneath the Surface

[SnakeEyes]

Well, I appreciate that, but it's there..... not trying to debate you or anyone else for that matter, but it's there.... 

[Ħ]

Being out of tune is more artistic.

[MondayMorningLunatic]

Found this gem patrolling YouTube today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppnAjlA_nYQ

Hopefully this will settle whatever debate is going on.

[Adami]

Found this gem patrolling YouTube today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppnAjlA_nYQ

Hopefully this will settle whatever debate is going on.

I already ran that section of nearly isolated vocals through Melodyne and it said it was a perfect A. SnakeEyes insisted that either I or the program were wrong.

[MondayMorningLunatic]

I don't hear anything out of tune either. But his vocals are a little shrill in that section so I can understand why some people would think they're off.

[TheGreatPretender]

Oh boy... I gotta say, I'm not crazy about the autotune at all. I mean, it's not T-Pain, but still, parts of it sound so inorganic. It's a lot less noticeable with the actual accompaniment.

[drew512]

I like to think I have a pretty good ear for pitch. I cringe all the time at live performances, whether it's JLB on YouTube (even in the Another Day video I posted there are several obvious pitch problems), live DVDs, national anthems, American Idol/The Voice/X Factor, etc.

Man, I just don't hear it in BTS. Autotuned? yea, but off pitch? not to me anyway. That said, I'm also willing to concede that there may be many shades of gray here and perhaps to an ear more trained than mine, it is obvious. Compared to the pitchiness I'm accustomed to hearing, this one doesn't even register.

Just curious... does the "dis" in "and I *dis*appeared into the darkness" also sound off pitch? It sounds like the same tone to me.

I'm not a musician so take my thoughts with a heavy serving of salt.

[OsMosis2259]

I think it just sounds odd because James singing higher was totally unexpected and came out of nowhere while the rest of the band stays at the same volume. I understand he sang higher because its the last chorus/climax but maybe if the rest of the band added something else to give that last chorus a bit of flavor/epicness(not a word I know), then it wouldn't sound that odd.

Regardless though I still love the track and its a great closer.

[snapple]

I don't get all the hubub

[Onno]

I've loved it since the first time I heard it. Seriously, that's about the best part of the song for me.

[SnakeEyes]

I'm going to settle this right now.  Here's the part in question, but with me playing an A right while James sings the note.  My "A" is perfectly in tune.  I'm using an m-audio Keystation MIDI controller with a Dimension Pro grand piano soft synth.  Sorry, James is not perfectly in tune with the A that I'm playing. 

https://kiwi6.com/file/yqd146ht3d

[Rattlehead]

I'm going to settle this right now.  Here's the part in question, but with me playing an A right while James sings the note.  My "A" is perfectly in tune.  I'm using an m-audio Keystation MIDI controller with a Dimension Pro grand piano soft synth.  Sorry, James is not perfectly in tune with the A that I'm playing. 

https://kiwi6.com/file/yqd146ht3d

If that's really what James' A "should" sound like to be perfectly in tune then I'm glad it doesn't. I like the song the way it is and am not bothered by this part at all but it is interesting to read everyone's dissection of the song 

[SnakeEyes]

I'm not saying you should like or not like one version.  I'm just saying it's factually incorrect to say that he's in tune.  He's not. 

[Rattlehead]

I'm not saying you should like or not like one version.  I'm just saying it's factually incorrect to say that he's in tune.  He's not.

Yeah I agree with you on that and I didn't think you were suggesting that anyone should like one version or the other I was just giving my opinion 

I've always been a James supporter though, I know he has his flaws but I love his voice and have since I first started listening to DT.

[Implode]

The music theory experts probably know more about this than I do, but isn't there different tunings of notes needed for specific functions and intervals? I vaguely remember one of my professors talking about how the third in a major triad sounds better when it's a few cents sharper or the perfect 5th is flatter or something.

Maybe it's something like that?

[SnakeEyes]

The music theory experts probably know more about this than I do, but isn't there different tunings of notes needed for specific functions and intervals? I vaguely remember one of my professors talking about how the third in a major triad sounds better when it's a few cents sharper or the perfect 5th is flatter or something.

Maybe it's something like that?

In this case, the note is audibly out of tune.  One of my Classical guitar teachers in college said that he used to have to tune his third string (G) a bit sharp because, if it were tuned "perfectly," an open E sounded weird.  But, the difference between what he was talking about and James' note is that the "altered tuning" made the chord sound BETTER.  James' not doesn't sound good - it's not a positive thing.  It's a mistake and it should have been redone. 

[MoraWintersoul]

So, now that it is established that the note is in fact out of tune, why do you all think they left it in?

Would love to have joined this discussion sooner, but that would require me to go and give the song another listen, which I didn't want to do.

[theseoafs]

It is NOT out of tune. It is autotuned, in fact, which comes from the Latin for really, truly in tune, probably to a fault.

[SnakeEyes]

This is a new one:  it's SO autotuned that..... it's ..... OUT OF TUNE. 



edit..

theseoafs, seriously.  "Really, really in tune" would be the note that I played on the keyboard.  James is human, he messed up.  They didn't fix it.  It would be the same thing if Petrucci bent a note and didn't bend it high enough or bent too much and they didn't fix it.  It's not a criticism of LaBrie for letting it happen.  But, really, it's an out of tune note.  I clearly proved it.  You can do it yourself.  I mean, seriously.  LOL

[theseoafs]

Yeah, that's probably it.

Anyway, I'm downloading the demo version of Melodyne for myself. I'll see what I can do about grabbing a video, because I'm honestly starting to find this whole debate very silly.

[SnakeEyes]

You can download whatever you want, but the thing is - hearing it is the truth.  If his intonation is off, it's off.  And, it is.  Did you listen to what I posted?  You really don't HEAR that he's out of tune?  Really?

[theseoafs]

I really don't, and if you'll look back to the thread you'll notice I've already played it with a perfect A; in fact, I said it was the very first thing I did before I weighed in about how in tune it was.

Also, about "hearing it being the truth".  Computers are far better at determining how in tune something is, because they're fucking computers.

[SnakeEyes]

Okay.  LOL   

Just so you know:  Bach and Mozart didn't need computers.... because.... they had fucking ears. 

theseoafs:  I'm going to let you have this one.  It's been a fun discussion, but it's not worth my time anymore.  To me, he's out of tune, I demonstrated it, I proved it.  You don't hear it.  That's fine.  I will agree to disagree. 

[Implode]

Somehow I think that even if there is video evidence provided, you two still won't agree. 

[SnakeEyes]

Somehow I think that even if there is video evidence provided, you two still won't agree. 

Video evidence?  What's the difference?  I posted an AUDIO CLIP (remember this is music lol) demonstrating what I'm saying.  But, you're right that we won't agree on this.  It happens. 

[theseoafs]

Got the video. It'll be up after it's uploaded (which will be quite a while from now considering my internet is dreadfully slow).

EDIT:  Never mind, I can't upload now. My sister's watching Netflix downstairs and our internet can't possibly do two things at the same time.

Anyway, the video evidence is sitting on my desktop now and will come later, but my findings were that the note is not a perfect A.  It is, however, exactly 1 cent sharp, meaning the difference between the BTS A and a perfect A are undetectable by the human ear.  So, the answer to the question "is the note in tune?" is, as expected, a resounding yes.

[SnakeEyes]

 

[snapple]

take that smugness elsewhere, friend.

[SnakeEyes]

It's not smugness, I just can't believe this conversation. 

First, we have Adami SWEARING up and down that it's a perfect A.  Now, theseoafs confirms that it's NOT a perfect A, but it doesn't matter, because you "can't hear that," even though I've been saying this whole time that.... I HEAR IT. 

Hilarious. 

[Implode]

I'm glad that there are a lot of  in this argument.

[snapple]

It's not smugness, I just can't believe this conversation. 

First, we have Adami SWEARING up and down that it's a perfect A.  Now, theseoafs confirms that it's NOT a perfect A, but it doesn't matter, because you "can't hear that," even though I've been saying this whole time that.... I HEAR IT. 

Hilarious.

>being right online
>being a jerk

unfortunately, you have to pick two. because everyone who chooses the "being right online" route has to pick the "being a jerk" option as well.

[theseoafs]

Biologically speaking, humans can't reliably tell apart two notes differing by one cent, no.

[MondayMorningLunatic]

The music theory experts probably know more about this than I do, but isn't there different tunings of notes needed for specific functions and intervals? I vaguely remember one of my professors talking about how the third in a major triad sounds better when it's a few cents sharper or the perfect 5th is flatter or something.

Maybe it's something like that?

You have it backwards. The major third is 14 cents sharp in 12 TET and the perfect fifth is 2 cents flat.

[Adami]

It's not smugness, I just can't believe this conversation. 

First, we have Adami SWEARING up and down that it's a perfect A.  Now, theseoafs confirms that it's NOT a perfect A, but it doesn't matter, because you "can't hear that," even though I've been saying this whole time that.... I HEAR IT. 

Hilarious.

I didn't swear anything, especially not up and down. I just said what melodyne showed me. However I did load in a different version of the recording than Theseoafs did, and mine had a decent amount of effects that might have changed it.

I listened to the clip you posted, and yes I can hear a slight difference. But not a difference that matters. Almost every note that isn't autotuned is to some degree off, it's just human. That's not the reason it sounds bad to you. Likely it's because he's hitting a 4th harmony when a 5th would have been better. Just a guess. And you really are not being very cool about this.

[Implode]

The music theory experts probably know more about this than I do, but isn't there different tunings of notes needed for specific functions and intervals? I vaguely remember one of my professors talking about how the third in a major triad sounds better when it's a few cents sharper or the perfect 5th is flatter or something.

Maybe it's something like that?

You have it backwards. The major third is 14 cents sharp in 12 TET and the perfect fifth is 2 cents flat.

I knew someone was bound to correct me. Thank you!