ADOTE lyrics too obvious

[tweeg]

One thing I miss from 90s DT is their lyric style. It was definitely less mature but two things it did brilliantly were "showing" as opposed to "telling" and leaving the meaning open to interpretation. I feel that they got away from this around SFAM (for obvious reasons) but especially 6DOIT onwards.

The music is so cinematic, complex and intricate I feel that the lyrics should be the same. What do you other forumers think?

[7StringedBeast]

I wouldn't mind some more open ended type lyrics in the future.

[antigoon]

I think the lyrics on this album are better than those in recent history, but they're not all that great. Outcry is the one that stands out as a step below the others, though. Really not a fan of those. Or the actual music, either.

[BlobVanDam]

Judging from the threads we've had on the lyrics, I'm pretty sure the new lyrics are not all obvious. I've seen two different alternative interpretations of what BTS is about, and even though we have a rough idea of what OTBOA is about, that's been open to interpretation too. Some of the songs have a lot of ambiguity to them.

Some of the songs are more straight up story telling, such as Lost Not Forgotten, but I actually enjoy the mix of lyrical styles. Cryptic lyrics don't necessarily equate to better to me. I think telling a story fits cinematic music perfectly.

[darkshot]

I still haven't figured out the lyrics to Breaking All Illusions... maybe others have but it is pretty mysterious to me.  I would hardly call the lyrics in this album obvious.

[tweeg]

Judging from the threads we've had on the lyrics, I'm pretty sure the new lyrics are not all obvious. I've seen two different alternative interpretations of what BTS is about, and even though we have a rough idea of what OTBOA is about, that's been open to interpretation too. Some of the songs have a lot of ambiguity to them.

Some of the songs are more straight up story telling, such as Lost Not Forgotten, but I actually enjoy the mix of lyrical styles. Cryptic lyrics don't necessarily equate to better to me. I think telling a story fits cinematic music perfectly.

I agree they somewhat succeed in being a bit less obvious than SC and BCSL but you still know what most songs are about right off the bat. BITS is about a shaman going into a some sort of altered state, LNF is about a forgotten conqueror wreaking havoc, and Outcry is about revolution, for examples. I can't think of any song on I&W or Awake where it's close to that obvious, and I think that that enriches the experience of these albums greatly, so much that they're in many people's top 3.

[Millais]

Judging from the threads we've had on the lyrics, I'm pretty sure the new lyrics are not all obvious. I've seen two different alternative interpretations of what BTS is about, and even though we have a rough idea of what OTBOA is about, that's been open to interpretation too. Some of the songs have a lot of ambiguity to them.

Some of the songs are more straight up story telling, such as Lost Not Forgotten, but I actually enjoy the mix of lyrical styles. Cryptic lyrics don't necessarily equate to better to me. I think telling a story fits cinematic music perfectly.

this^

This is one of the best lyrical efforts by DT in a while. Outcry is amazing.

[BlobVanDam]

Judging from the threads we've had on the lyrics, I'm pretty sure the new lyrics are not all obvious. I've seen two different alternative interpretations of what BTS is about, and even though we have a rough idea of what OTBOA is about, that's been open to interpretation too. Some of the songs have a lot of ambiguity to them.

Some of the songs are more straight up story telling, such as Lost Not Forgotten, but I actually enjoy the mix of lyrical styles. Cryptic lyrics don't necessarily equate to better to me. I think telling a story fits cinematic music perfectly.

I agree they somewhat succeed in being a bit less obvious than SC and BCSL but you still know what most songs are about right off the bat. BITS is about a shaman going into a some sort of altered state, LNF is about a forgotten conqueror wreaking havoc, and Outcry is about revolution, for examples. I can't think of any song on I&W or Awake where it's close to that obvious, and I think that that enriches the experience of these albums greatly, so much that they're in many people's top 3.

I still don't see the problem with lyrics that are actually about something obvious to the listener. I think cinematic music should tell a story, as a movie does. From this album there are maybe 3 songs that are clear enough that I haven't seen discussion about their meaning. And the rest set out to have a clear message or story. Maybe vague lyrics give off a sense of pseudo-depth to some people, but it doesn't enhance my enjoyment of a song.
My favourite 2 DT albums are SFAM, and SDOIT, so I guess I like knowing what message the lyrics are trying to convey to me.

[Ben_Jamin]

I really don't care if the lyrics are obvious or not. And It shouldn't matter. With Dream Theater I put my own interpretation on the songs even though its obviously about something else, It works this way because they leave their lyrics open.

[tweeg]

Judging from the threads we've had on the lyrics, I'm pretty sure the new lyrics are not all obvious. I've seen two different alternative interpretations of what BTS is about, and even though we have a rough idea of what OTBOA is about, that's been open to interpretation too. Some of the songs have a lot of ambiguity to them.

Some of the songs are more straight up story telling, such as Lost Not Forgotten, but I actually enjoy the mix of lyrical styles. Cryptic lyrics don't necessarily equate to better to me. I think telling a story fits cinematic music perfectly.

I agree they somewhat succeed in being a bit less obvious than SC and BCSL but you still know what most songs are about right off the bat. BITS is about a shaman going into a some sort of altered state, LNF is about a forgotten conqueror wreaking havoc, and Outcry is about revolution, for examples. I can't think of any song on I&W or Awake where it's close to that obvious, and I think that that enriches the experience of these albums greatly, so much that they're in many people's top 3.

I still don't see the problem with lyrics that are actually about something obvious to the listener. I think cinematic music should tell a story, as a movie does. From this album there are maybe 3 songs that are clear enough that I haven't seen discussion about their meaning. And the rest set out to have a clear message or story. Maybe vague lyrics give off a sense of pseudo-depth to some people, but it doesn't enhance my enjoyment of a song.
My favourite 2 DT albums are SFAM, and SDOIT, so I guess I like knowing what message the lyrics are trying to convey to me.

I think they could be, in fact, a bit more cinematic. I find they kind of just tell you what's going on in the story instead of showing you. If you look at something like WFS you can gather what that song is about pretty easily but they never once say that someone died. It paints a picture of it, and really succeeds IMO.

But I guess we just have different tastes in lyrics, not that its a bad thing at all. I do wonder if the lyric style is the big difference maker between the I&W/Awake and SFAM/6DOIT crowds.

[BlobVanDam]

I think they could be, in fact, a bit more cinematic. I find they kind of just tell you what's going on in the story instead of showing you. If you look at something like WFS you can gather what that song is about pretty easily but they never once say that someone died. It paints a picture of it, and really succeeds IMO.

But I guess we just have different tastes in lyrics, not that its a bad thing at all. I do wonder if the lyric style is the big difference maker between the I&W/Awake and SFAM/6DOIT crowds.

That's an interesting question actually. I definitely enjoy DT more for the music than lyrics. I think music is just as successful at telling a story as vague lyrics. It paints a picture of moods, rather than metaphors.

And for the record, I never knew WFS had anything to do with someone dying until you just said it now. I thought it was about literal sleep, so I guess it didn't succeed on me at all.

But it also took me a year or two before I knew that TGP was about MP giving up alcohol. I thought it was something religious about a mythical prison.......

[antigoon]

Also, lyrics can be straightforward without being bland. Petrucci achieves this sometimes, but definitely not always.

Edit: For the record I think the old, incomprehensible ones are nearly as bad.

[lonestar]

I appreciate them being kept simple, makes it easy for us stupid people to relate to the songs too.

[njdtfan]

I have a friend, singer and lyricist in a pretty famous band. We talk a bit about what he writes. and he writes about some pretty serious things. But doesnt/wont go into exact details. I am going to quote him because it is something that I remember to this day. "I write lyrics that come from my heart. Some may find them odd,, or actually have a hard time even listening to the. BUT and this is the most important thing to me a a songwriter, I want the listener to interpret the song in their own way. It is actually a great thing that each individual interprets my lyrics in ther way.."

[lonestar]

I have a friend, singer and lyricist in a pretty famous band. We talk a bit about what he writes. and he writes about some pretty serious things. But doesnt/wont go into exact details. I am going to quote him because it is something that I remember to this day. "I write lyrics that come from my heart. Some may find them odd,, or actually have a hard time even listening to the. BUT and this is the most important thing to me a a songwriter, I want the listener to interpret the song in their own way. It is actually a great thing that each individual interprets my lyrics in ther way.."

So true.  Music, and it's lyrics exist for nurturing our own souls, not for any other reason.  The writer of the lyrics works through his own life through the lyrics, and we as the listener let them play on our lives as we see fit.  That is the heart and soul of what true art is.

[Jaffa]

I don't know about ADOTE, but ADTOE has some pretty ambiguous lyrics to me...

Pedantic corrections aside, I really don't see it as much as of issue.  True, there is nothing on ADTOE quite as poetic or mysterious as the likes of Under a Glass Moon, but some of the songs are pretty open to interpretation.  Breaking All Illusions especially. 

[tweeg]

I don't know about ADOTE, but ADTOE has some pretty ambiguous lyrics to me...

Pedantic corrections aside, I really don't see it as much as of issue.  True, there is nothing on ADTOE quite as poetic or mysterious as the likes of Under a Glass Moon, but some of the songs are pretty open to interpretation.  Breaking All Illusions especially.

I just assumed the genius of Myung lyrics were a tacit exception to the conversation 

[j]

I don't care if the lyrics are ambiguous or blunt, as long as they're well-written.  Granted, DT has been somewhat hit-or-miss with their lyrics throughout their whole career (more "miss" lately IMO), but I think ADTOE has some very solid lyrics, probably the band's best lyrical effort as a whole since Awake.

Outcry is the only song I would say has "bad" lyrics, and they're not as bad as say TBoT or PoW from the previous two albums.

-J

[Ben_Jamin]

All songs can be interpreted differently. Wither I see about Restarting your life, cleaning the slate after you've hit the bottom.

[Ħ]

Haven't had too many problems with the lyrics...nothing really impressive except for BTS, but yeah, there's nothing to complain about.

[bss4life15]

I don't have any problems with having a story to the lyrics, rather than cryptic, I don't understand what the fuck he is trying to say, lyrics.  It's why Ayreon's The Human Equation is my favorite album ever.

[ariich]

Judging from the threads we've had on the lyrics, I'm pretty sure the new lyrics are not all obvious. I've seen two different alternative interpretations of what BTS is about, and even though we have a rough idea of what OTBOA is about, that's been open to interpretation too. Some of the songs have a lot of ambiguity to them.

Some of the songs are more straight up story telling, such as Lost Not Forgotten, but I actually enjoy the mix of lyrical styles. Cryptic lyrics don't necessarily equate to better to me. I think telling a story fits cinematic music perfectly.

Well said.

Also, these days we hear from band members roughly what the songs are about before we even hear the songs (from interviews etc) which also takes away the mystery.

[Priest of Syrinx]

I found the 90's-era purply DT lyrics to be fun.  Overall, the ATDOE lyrics are pretty good, galaxies better than the previous couple of disasters.

[JasonScandopolous]

I feel the same way as you do... it's the way petrucci writes.  However, after initially being like "crap" after hearing Petrucci wrote almost all of the lyrics,   I was surprised that a few of them seemed to not have that "telling" aspect as you described it.

I dont remember which songs I thought this about, I've only listened to the album once so far.  There were several songs where I still felt this way, though.

[Metabog]

BAI is like that. I agree that the other songs are pretty bland lyrically.

I remember there was an interview with JP where someone asks him what LNF is about and he says something along the lines of "i think persians were awesome, so I wrote about persians".

[Onearmedmidget]

I do believe it's slightly too straightforward but at least it came across in a decent way this time (imo). Unlike songs like a Count of Tuscany ("All the finest wines improve with age"), in the presence of enemy part2 ("dark master").

[energythief]

I found the 90's-era purply DT lyrics to be fun.  Overall, the ATDOE lyrics are pretty good, galaxies better than the previous couple of disasters.

All I do is quote people lately that expressed my opinions first, better.

[CrimsonE]

Sometimes obvious lyrics work.  I'd says This is the Life has a pretty straightforward message, but it doesn't take away from the power of the lyrics. 

[BlobVanDam]

Also, these days we hear from band members roughly what the songs are about before we even hear the songs (from interviews etc) which also takes away the mystery.

Ah yes, that too. These days most people are well aware of what the lyrics are about before we even hear the album at all, so people have context going in.

[KevShmev]

Also, these days we hear from band members roughly what the songs are about before we even hear the songs (from interviews etc) which also takes away the mystery.

Agreed.

And honestly, while most of it was obvious after it all sank in, I wish the band hadn't been so forthcoming with everything in the Scenes story on the M:2000 DVD commentary.  I like leaving certain things up to the interpretation of every listener.

[DTGeek]

The lyrics on ADTOE are much better than the last few albums, but they're still... not good.

It isn't necessarily that they're too obvious though.  Look at Rush's "Middletown Dreams", it's one of my absolute favorite songs lyrics wise, but it's just as direct and obvious as anything DT writes.  It's the power of how it's written and the imagery that does it for me. ADTOE's has its moments, but overall the lines aren't powerful enough, poetic enough, memorable enough, or thought provoking enough for me to consider it anything other than average from a lyrics perspective.  It's like comparing a typical Hollywood action blockbuster to a more artistic film.

That said, this is nothing new.  Good lyrical moments for me have been few and far between since Kevin Moore left (Myung songs, mostly), so unless Mike Mangini has an inner Neil Peart he can start channeling, it's probably best not to belabor the point and just be glad they've at least limited the number of cringeworthy moments.

[Priest of Syrinx]

The lyrics on ADTOE are much better than the last few albums, but they're still... not good.

It isn't necessarily that they're too obvious though.  Look at Rush's "Middletown Dreams", it's one of my absolute favorite songs lyrics wise, but it's just as direct and obvious as anything DT writes.  It's the power of how it's written and the imagery that does it for me. ADTOE's has its moments, but overall the lines aren't powerful enough, poetic enough, memorable enough, or thought provoking enough for me to consider it anything other than average from a lyrics perspective.  It's like comparing a typical Hollywood action blockbuster to a more artistic film.

That said, this is nothing new.  Good lyrical moments for me have been few and far between since Kevin Moore left (Myung songs, mostly), so unless Mike Mangini has an inner Neil Peart he can start channeling, it's probably best not to belabor the point and just be glad they've at least limited the number of cringeworthy moments.

ATDOE's lyrics are OK for the musical arena in which DT exists, I think.  Neil Peart has laid his share of eggs, too - "Dog Years" comes to mind.  Generally, I'm satisfied when the lyrical content gets out of the way and allows JLB the freedom to use his voice as an instrument.  Anything more is a bonus.

[DTGeek]

That's a good point, I'm not sure Rush's style of lyrics would work well with James singing, and JLB's performance is one of the things that really stands out on this album.

[Priest of Syrinx]

I agree.  I look at at Rush as being more different from DT than (apparently) many people do, and I think lyrical content plays more of a role in their music.  I also think that for a guy who wasn't gifted with a great voice, Geddy Lee is a tremendous vocalist.

[Orthogonal]

@OP, I think the early lyrics were certainly of a higher quality than they have been in recent albums, but the lyrical content is something that is pretty low on my list of qualities I use to appreciate music. However, I do have one pet-peeve about it. While I couldn't care less about what they are singing about (with few exceptions), I do care about the phrasing and diction of the lyrics. One thing that seems to be more common (this is not specific to DT), is forcing too many syllable's into a passage, or inconsistent phrasing from one vocal section to the next. Whither is a song that particularly irks me in this way. ADTOE overall doesn't seem to suffer from this as much. There are even a few sections that have some great moments like in BITS during the pre-chorus, 1st chorus, whatever you call it, where Jame's belts out "The fabric of reality..." is great. It adds so much personality and character. Imagine him singing that passage in a more uniform melody and diction and it wouldn't have nearly the same impact.