Dream Theater: In Need of a New Producer?

[livehard]

LOL. Re-read, please. A mix is different than production. That's why a lot of bands have an engineer, a producer, and a mixer.

LOL re-read please.  I said on a side note.   I know exactly what mix and production is and the difference between them.

I don't want an outside ear.  Not having MP is the only change to production they needed.

[bosk1]

I write for a living. Most of my writing doesn't need a LOT of editing.

Most of the time, their dead wrong.

Sorry, man.  Couldn't resist. 

[7StringedBeast]

Samsara, you're taking that comment a wee bit too seriously lol. 

I still don't think DT need an outside producer at all. 

[King Postwhore]

Though I love the new album a producer can push a band into greatness if they find the right producer.  It's a shot in the arm and I've seen some of my favorite band benefit from a producer so I'd like to see DT go that route.

[emindead]

Nope. I think ADTOE is a clear sign that DT are capable of it on their own

Oh, they always seem to make great songs on their own: ITPOE pt. 1 is EXCELLENT... pt.2 is a terrible let down. A Nightmare to Remember is great... until you know which part. The Count of Tuscany is awesome, laughable lyrics (this reminds me of when Bob Rock told Hetfield to re-write the lyrics to Enter Sandman. "Dude, the first you handled are not good enough") and on and on. And like I said before, Beneath the Surface lacks punch, lacks a climax.

They occasionally throw you the good song that needs no work, but in most cases they need direction.

[7StringedBeast]

I just find it funny that because a person gets negative opinions about some songs and not even just whole songs, but just certain sections, they feel DT has failed in some way and needs a producer to show them the light.  I give props to them for sticking to their guns and writing what they feel they want. 

I didn't like BCSL but I don't think an outside producer would have been the answer.  (to me it seemed like losing 1 producer did more for them). 

[ReaPsTA]

Though I love the new album a producer can push a band into greatness if they find the right producer.  It's a shot in the arm and I've seen some of my favorite band benefit from a producer so I'd like to see DT go that route.

Good point.  Even though the songwriting on I&W and Awake was basically unchanged when it was recorded, the sound of those albums was drastically shaped by the people who produced them.  As much as MP hates the sound of I&W, I think it's a huge part of its success.  And if you compare the sound of the Awake album and demos, I mean, completely different worlds.

[emindead]

Absolutely not.

This.

Emindead, I swear you just hate everything.

Hate is a strong word. Disappointed is much better.

They NEED one. NEED. NEED. NEED. They are really successful (in their own way) but that doesn't mean they can't do better.

[kirksnosehair]

Absolutely not.

Prior to this record, I might have agreed with this.  I have not liked anything they've released since 6DOIT, but ADTOE proved that John Petrucci is a good producer.  The album speaks for itself.  4.5 stars from me, and pretty much overwhelmingly positive reviews on all of the prog sites, not to mention the fact that sales are doing better than any album they've ever done.

[Jaffa]

They NEED one. NEED. NEED. NEED. They are really successful (in their own way) but that doesn't mean they can't do better.

I'm thinking about editting my initial post here just to make my disagreement with you stronger. 

[ReaPsTA]

Absolutely not.

This.

Emindead, I swear you just hate everything.

Hate is a strong word. Disappointed is much better.

They NEED one. NEED. NEED. NEED. They are really successful (in their own way) but that doesn't mean they can't do better.

Wait, you just said they're successful.  Why do they need a producer?

[ariich]

So that emindead can like the music more, which is surely DT's number 1 priority?

[Jaffa]

Wait, you just said they're successful.  Why do they need a producer?

Because bears shouldn't produce albums without supervision.

[ReaPsTA]

Wait, you just said they're successful.  Why do they need a producer?

Because bears shouldn't produce albums without supervision.

True...

Jordan "Hey John, what's up."
John "Not much man.  Hey, I was thinking about the solo for Lost Not Forgotten.  I was thinking that instead of playing super fast and having a lot of effects on the synth, you should try to be a little more melodic."
Jordan "Oh... alright."
John "What's wrong."
Jordan "It's just that I'm really excited about the modulation effects on the new Kronos.  I figured that was the best song to put them to use."
John *sniff* *sniff*
Jordan "What are you doing John?"
John "Did you eat Honey Nut Cheerios for breakfast?"
Jordan "Oh, yeah, I did actually.  My daughter really loves them."
John "Did you know that when a bear wants honey, it will grab a beehive with its claws and crush it into pieces?"
Jordan "No... I didn't know that."
John "I also really think it's interesting that beehives are about the same size as a human head.  You have a human head by the way."
Jordan "Yes, I do have one of those."
John "So, are you going to write the solo as I asked?"
Jordan "Yes, I'll have it ready for you tomorrow."
John "Excellent, can't wait to hear it!  I'm off to Red Lobster with Rena now.  I heard the maple-glazed salmon is amazing."

[ariich]

[Jaffa]

[bosk1]

John "...You have a human head by the way."
Jordan "Yes, I do have one of those."

[MarlaHooch]

I voted no, but I'd still enjoy a change of pace.  I still love FII but have no knowledge how much of the difference in style is due to Kevin Shirley vs. other factors.

[Priest of Syrinx]

You know who has outside producers?  Nickleback.

You know who had an outside producer?  The Beatles.

[livehard]

You know who has outside producers?  Nickleback.

You know who had an outside producer?  The Beatles.

You know who didn't have the musical, technical and recording knowledge of Dream Theater? The Beatles.

[Jaffa]

You know who has outside producers?  Nickleback.

You know who had an outside producer?  The Beatles.

You know who didn't have the musical, technical and recording knowledge of Dream Theater? The Beatles.

You know who was the walrus?  The Beatles.

[Priest of Syrinx]

You know who has outside producers?  Nickleback.

You know who had an outside producer?  The Beatles.

You know who didn't have the musical, technical and recording knowledge of Dream Theater? The Beatles.

You know who was the walrus?  The Beatles.

You know who had A Hard Days Night?  The Beatles.

[emindead]

You know which bunch of people will stop the quote pyramid and cease to hijack my thread?

Wait, you just said they're successful.  Why do they need a producer?

Because (arguably) their songs are good but they could be much better. I feel people here are praising too much a B+ album. How many here would they place this new album above I&W, Awake, SFAM or 6DOIT? (Jamesman doesn't count, in the first week he ranked BC&SL as #1 LOL!)

[Priest of Syrinx]

You know which bunch of people will stop the quote pyramid and cease to hijack my thread?

The Beatles?   

Back on track... I wonder if the (maybe) over-the-top reaction to ADTOE's production values are because it's so good in contrast to the previous couple of efforts?

[livehard]

You know who has outside producers?  Nickleback.

You know who had an outside producer?  The Beatles.

You know who didn't have the musical, technical and recording knowledge of Dream Theater? The Beatles.

You know who was the walrus?  The Beatles.

You know who had A Hard Days Night?  The Beatles.

You know who had Yellow Submarine? The Beatles.

[Jaffa]

Sorry emindead.

As for the actual point of the thread...

Because (arguably) their songs are good but they could be much better. I feel people here are praising too much a B+ album. How many here would they place this new album above I&W, Awake, SFAM or 6DOIT?

Well, see, that's where the whole thing becomes convoluted by opinions.  SDOIT isn't overall one of my favorite DT albums.  So yes, I'd probably say that ADTOE is above SDOIT on my tentative rankings. 

I do honestly agree that in some ways I think an outside producer could be quite beneficial.  Partially just because I feel that some of the songs on the album lack cohesion, and that might have been corrected with outside guidance.  I just don't feel it's a 'need' so much as a 'could use'. 

[snapple]

I don't think it would hurt. Need? Well, NEED is strong. But I did vote yes.

[obscure]

Hard to improve on perfect. I vote no.


(If you had asked this one album ago I'd have said absolutely 100% yes.)

this

[bosk1]

You know which bunch of people will stop the quote pyramid and cease to hijack my thread?

Wait, you just said they're successful.  Why do they need a producer?

Because (arguably) their songs are good but they could be much better. I feel people here are praising too much a B+ album. How many here would they place this new album above I&W, Awake, SFAM or 6DOIT? (Jamesman doesn't count, in the first week he ranked BC&SL as #1 LOL!)

Definitely above Awake.  Quite possibly above I&W, but too early to tell.

[emindead]

Well, see, that's where the whole thing becomes convoluted by opinions.  SDOIT isn't overall one of my favorite DT albums.  So yes, I'd probably say that ADTOE is above SDOIT on my tentative rankings. 

I do honestly agree that in some ways I think an outside producer could be quite beneficial.  Partially just because I feel that some of the songs on the album lack cohesion, and that might have been corrected with outside guidance.  I just don't feel it's a 'need' so much as a 'could use'. 

1. It's true, you may like one album more than the other. But the ones I mentioned are the favourites among the fans (after the hype had dissipated).

2. I agree with you that this album likes cohesion. In particular there are songs like BMU,BMD that I honestly think "this song makes no sense at all." Then there are songs (I'm talking specifically on ADTOE) that insert a solo that I think doesn't benefit the song at all. After giving some few listens to this album and reading after a while how people were comparing structurally I&W to ADTOE I couldn't understand where this had come from. However, if one tend to believe that controversial facebook opinion, you would notice that ADTOE doesn't hold a candle to I&W.

I was listening to Metropolis pt. 1 (and it's a song I'm not really a huge fan of) and I could feel how the instrumental break down had something to propose, it's interesting, it feels original. Take the Time benefits really well from the solo after the second chorus, you feel it's driving you towards something, leading you somewhere. But when I hear Bridges in the Sky or Outcry I just listen to some good parts here and there, some lyrics that have no resonance with me nor, I feel, with anything (OTBOA has really, really bad lyrics). Then you have more complete good songs like Breaking all Illusions and Beneath the Surface. On the former I would punish the lack of exploitation in some great melodies, maybe I want to listen more to that chorus because it's really, REALLY awesome.

Finally, I know it's hard to not let your past works see a similar reprise in your contemporary, it's your style, but this is the first one where I blatantly see segments of DT's catalogue here. This leads me to believe that they took an (understandable) safe approach.

[emindead]

You know which bunch of people will stop the quote pyramid and cease to hijack my thread?

Wait, you just said they're successful.  Why do they need a producer?

Because (arguably) their songs are good but they could be much better. I feel people here are praising too much a B+ album. How many here would they place this new album above I&W, Awake, SFAM or 6DOIT? (Jamesman doesn't count, in the first week he ranked BC&SL as #1 LOL!)

Definitely above Awake.  Quite possibly above I&W, but too early to tell.

To me, very controversial ranking but that's why I saw the potential in this thread. For rankings like this is why I said that this poll would be open for 90 days - just to compare the hype rankings vs. the more digested ones.

[Jamesman42]

James is 100% correct.

yeah the hell?

[bosk1]

You know which bunch of people will stop the quote pyramid and cease to hijack my thread?

Wait, you just said they're successful.  Why do they need a producer?

Because (arguably) their songs are good but they could be much better. I feel people here are praising too much a B+ album. How many here would they place this new album above I&W, Awake, SFAM or 6DOIT? (Jamesman doesn't count, in the first week he ranked BC&SL as #1 LOL!)

Definitely above Awake.  Quite possibly above I&W, but too early to tell.

To me, very controversial ranking but that's why I saw the potential in this thread. For rankings like this is why I said that this poll would be open for 90 days - just to compare the hype rankings vs. the more digested ones.

To your point above, yes, the ones you mention are my top 4.  So, yeah, I'm saying This album likely cracks my top 4, and possibly higher. 

Honestly, I think had you used language like "could have benefitted from" instead of "need," I think you would be seeing very different poll results.

James is 100% correct.

yeah the hell?

I know, right?

[Jamesman42]

I....I guess you do know.

One day everything will be right again between us.

[bosk1]

No it won't.  I'm still bitter about you not picking me up from the airport.