Comparing songs from ADTOE with their I&W counterparts

[Orthogonal]

I've never heard that story before Bosk. Really cool. JP is an amazing talent that we're so lucky to have.

[bosk1]

So, I can't remember what's been posted in this regard yet, but now that I have had the album for the better part of a week and have had more time to listen to and digest the tracks, I'm curious about whether anyone else has done any other comparison charts for the other songs. 

As far as what I'm hearing:

-OTBOA:  I still think Thiago really overthought the comparison.  But despite the individual parts having some very important musical differences, I do see a strong overall structural similarity between OTBOA and Pull Me Under.

-Lost Not Forgotten:  I don't see a strong structural resemblance to Under a Glass Moon as a whole, but I definitely see it in the intro, and see portions that are tonally so similar that it certainly sounds like an intentional nod to me.

-Outcry:  Like LNF, I hear some very strong structural and tonal similarities in the intro and beginning of the song to Metropolis.  There are lots of different elements, but all throughout the song, there are parts that definitely jump out to me and hearken me back to parts in Metropolis that sound like direct nods.  Myself and others have said in a few threads that parts of this song really hearken to The Dance Of Eternity.  But let's not forget that part of TDOE's role in SFAM was to serve as a strong instrumental bridge between that album and Metropolis pt. I. 

-Breaking All Illusions:  Again, similar to the last two.  Not a direct structural similarity to Learning To Live, but I really hear some strong comparisons throughout the song.  The soft vocal part over the prominent groovy bassline with ambient keyboard backing really takes me back to LTL in a very strong way.

-Far From Heaven:  I see no similarities between this and it's obvious I&W "counterpart" (Wait For Sleep) other than being a stripped down, moody, key-driven ballad.  The songs do not really resemble each other at all.  But then there is the fact that you have these two stripped down, moody, key-driven ballads on their respective albums that are each described as sort of a musical "part one" to the songs that follow, which is an undeniable connection.

Maybe I'm just not hearing them yet, but I hear NO similarities whatsoever to Surrounded, Another Day, or Take the Time.  Either the connections to those songs don't exist whatsoever, or they are much more subtle.

My take:  Lots of similarities.  Some no doubt very real and intentional; some no doubt completely imagined by us fans (or, perhaps real, but not originally intended by the band).  Lots of differences as well.  It is very interesting to me that DT were able to simultaneously make several different instrumental connections to their perhaps most universally respected "classic album" while also creating something that is at the same time fresh, unique, and modern-sounding.  It is also interesting to me that the connections seem to be done in so many different ways (i.e., structural similarities; tonal similarities; compositional similarities, etc.).  That, to me, is totally DT.

[FretMuppet]

The only similarity between Another Day and This is the Life is the intro. But I doubt that was intentional

[ariich]

This is the Life sounds infinitely more like The Spirit Carries On than Another Day.

[serrano]

This is the Life sounds infinitely more like The Spirit Carries On than Another Day.

+1

[Adami]

This is the Life sounds infinitely more like The Spirit Carries On than Another Day.

Sounds a bit like parts of TMOLS to me as well.

[Orthogonal]

Lots of good analysis Bosk. Thanks for your contribution. It's fun to read other's opinions.

I've had a lot more time dive into the tracks and gone so far as listen to ADTOE/I&W counterparts back-to-back, or segment by segment to pick out similarities.

OTBOA: This is by far the most striking structural similarity on the whole album, it is so close that it couldn't be coincidental (imho). Even so, the songs still have their own identity thematically and it's impressive that DT was able to pull it off so well. I would say this has a near 100% structural similarity to PMU.

LNF: This ones also has a very rigid structural flow to UAGM. The Unison is a lot longer and more diverse in the beginning, and the instrumental section is a bit longer, but I can still remember listening to LNF for the first time and predicting what was going to come next, especially during the long instrumental. This is also one of the few songs where there is a strong thematic similarity when comparing the intro's. It is one of the few things that people who don't see the structural similarities will point out. Considering how similar they are, it almost seems like they wanted the listner to recall UAGM, and then take the song in a different direction stylistically, all the while maintaining the same overall structural flow. This one is to me, also very near a 100% structural similarity.

TITL: I'm not sure why people don't see the connections to AD here. The thematic guitar solo at the intro and subsequent reprise is a dead give away. Both songs are thematically however, very different. TITL is more moody while AD is more bright (and sometimes a little cheesy). I also rate these near 100% similarity.

Outcry: This one has very strong structural similarities to Metropolis and both intro's are thematically similar and reminiscent to each other. However, While the overall flow is pretty much the same, there are a few differences that are worth pointing out. The instrumental sections are quite different. They have some similar elements, but they do not flow together at all, at least no where near like LNF instrumental section did with UAGM. In this regard they have a life of their own. Also, in Reo73's breakdown of the song flows at the beginning he notes an "Intro" Riff with full band and later a "Riff 2" that is repeated in the song. In Outcry, the Intro riff is the same as "Riff 2" that is part of the chorus, while Metropolis "Intro" riff is unique and never repeated. Even though the songs maintain the same overall flow, these differences do show some structural inconsistencies. I would rate Outcry about 60-70% similar to Metropolis. Certainly a nod.

BAI: Charting this out against LTL shows very similar structures up through the chorus and instrumental break, but then they diverge. The instrumental's show some similar elements, but the flow is very different. BAI finishes up with a repeat of the chorus and an ending "chorus" while LTL ends with a unique vocal and the song trails off with an instrumental continuation of the main theme. The songs share structural similarities for about the first 50% of the songs.

FFH: This song is only similar to WFS in that it is vocal/keys. No structural similarities at all. It is at most a spiritual nod to WFS in that FFH has some themes reprised in BAI similar to how WFS has themes reprised in LTL.

BMU,BMD, BITS and BTS seem to be 100% unique structurally and I don't even detect a nod to Surrounded or Take the Time.

[Chrissalix]

Lots of good analysis Bosk. Thanks for your contribution. It's fun to read other's opinions.

I've had a lot more time dive into the tracks and gone so far as listen to ADTOE/I&W counterparts back-to-back, or segment by segment to pick out similarities.

OTBOA - Agree. This is similar but it's clever about it. Certain sections sound more like As I Am or LTE stuff. But then having a formula for a lead off single isn't all that uncommon. (1/1 - but it's a lead single)

LNF - Agree. This is also similar although it's a much longer song. Can't be 100% the same because of that but the similarity is indeed striking. (2/2)

TITL: Not even close to 100% similarity. TITL is lengthier and recalls TSCO way more than it does another day. This is one that's not all that obvious but has been quasi-blindly thrown in by Thiago to make his case stronger. Actually not that similar. About 40% if you want a %, certainly not as similar as you are making it out to be. (2/3)

Outcry: I agree that the vibe in the intro is similar. However shoehorning instrumental sections into songs like that is nothing new from DT. This isn't all that different to Home/Endless Sacrifice in that respect. I see where this one has come from, but it's not as clear cut as the first two and certainly not an intentional carbon copy as far as I can tell. (2,5/4)

BAI: Trying to compare 2 prog epics like this and LTL with stupidly complex structures is laughable. I agree that they start out with a similar vibe but BAI is very different from about 5:00 on. No chart copying here. Maybe there was an idea to write another prog epic with the same vibe, but certainly no direct plagiarism. The reprising of themes was also done on ToT with Vacant and SoC. (2,5/5)

FFH: I agree entirely. Themes from FFH and WFS are reprised in different places in BAI and LTL respectively. Certainly no chart copying here. Pieces are both different in structure and vibe from oneanother. (2,5/6)

Basically, just under half of the comparisons are legit, but not as deliberate as the Bad Salad guy first made them out to be.

[bosk1]

TITL: I'm not sure why people don't see the connections to AD here. The thematic guitar solo at the intro and subsequent reprise is a dead give away. Both songs are thematically however, very different. TITL is more moody while AD is more bright (and sometimes a little cheesy). I also rate these near 100% similarity.

I took a really close listen to the song on my commute this morning and totally got that, actually.  Yeah, I can totally see that one now.

[Sixtease]

So back on topic, the winners for me:

PMU vs. OTBOA: On The Backs Of Angels

AD vs. TITL: This Is The Life
Another Day has a gorgeous bridge (they took pictures of our dreams) but This Is The Life has an overall nicer mood and better motive.

TTT vs. BITS: Bridges In The Sky
never been a big fan of Take The Time and I love Bridges In The Sky a lot

Surrounded vs. BMUBMD: Surrounded
They are so different that they're tough to compare but Surrounded is simply a classic.

Metropolis vs. Outcry: Metropolis

UGAM vs. LNF: Under A Glass Moon
Here, I find the similarity most striking. LNF is very solid and I love the part between guitar and keyboard solos, but Under A Glass Moon is just too hard to beat.

WFS vs. FFH: Wait For Sleep
Tough choice, neither is special to me, but I'll go with Wait For Sleep as it sounds a bit nicer.

LTL vs. BAI: Learning To Live
Very tightly.

[visitor]

So back on topic, the winners for me:

PMU vs. OTBOA: On The Backs Of Angels

AD vs. TITL: This Is The Life
Another Day has a gorgeous bridge (they took pictures of our dreams) but This Is The Life has an overall nicer mood and better motive.

TTT vs. BITS: Bridges In The Sky
never been a big fan of Take The Time and I love Bridges In The Sky a lot

Surrounded vs. BMUBMD: Surrounded
They are so different that they're tough to compare but Surrounded is simply a classic.

Metropolis vs. Outcry: Metropolis

UGAM vs. LNF: Under A Glass Moon
Here, I find the similarity most striking. LNF is very solid and I love the part between guitar and keyboard solos, but Under A Glass Moon is just too hard to beat.

WFS vs. FFH: Wait For Sleep
Tough choice, neither is special to me, but I'll go with Wait For Sleep as it sounds a bit nicer.

LTL vs. BAI: Learning To Live
Very tightly.

Did not think it was possible to not like TTT and to feel meh about WFS 

[hefdaddy42]

FWIW, the first time my 8-year old daughter heard On The Backs Of Angels, she said, "This sounds kind of like Pull Me Under."  I lol'd.

For the record, her faves on the album are BMUBMD, LNF, BITS, and Outcry.

[Xanthul]

FWIW, the first time my 8-year old daughter heard On The Backs Of Angels, she said, "This sounds kind of like Pull Me Under."  I lol'd.

For the record, her faves on the album are BMUBMD, LNF, BITS, and Outcry.

I'm still unable to hear the similarities, I'm embarrassed Might be because I don't know anything about music, but the only I&W "throwback" that I've noticed is BAI - LTL.

[Perpetual Change]

So, I can't remember what's been posted in this regard yet, but now that I have had the album for the better part of a week and have had more time to listen to and digest the tracks, I'm curious about whether anyone else has done any other comparison charts for the other songs. 

As far as what I'm hearing:

-OTBOA:  I still think Thiago really overthought the comparison.  But despite the individual parts having some very important musical differences, I do see a strong overall structural similarity between OTBOA and Pull Me Under.

-Lost Not Forgotten:  I don't see a strong structural resemblance to Under a Glass Moon as a whole, but I definitely see it in the intro, and see portions that are tonally so similar that it certainly sounds like an intentional nod to me.

-Outcry:  Like LNF, I hear some very strong structural and tonal similarities in the intro and beginning of the song to Metropolis.  There are lots of different elements, but all throughout the song, there are parts that definitely jump out to me and hearken me back to parts in Metropolis that sound like direct nods.  Myself and others have said in a few threads that parts of this song really hearken to The Dance Of Eternity.  But let's not forget that part of TDOE's role in SFAM was to serve as a strong instrumental bridge between that album and Metropolis pt. I. 

-Breaking All Illusions:  Again, similar to the last two.  Not a direct structural similarity to Learning To Live, but I really hear some strong comparisons throughout the song.  The soft vocal part over the prominent groovy bassline with ambient keyboard backing really takes me back to LTL in a very strong way.

-Far From Heaven:  I see no similarities between this and it's obvious I&W "counterpart" (Wait For Sleep) other than being a stripped down, moody, key-driven ballad.  The songs do not really resemble each other at all.  But then there is the fact that you have these two stripped down, moody, key-driven ballads on their respective albums that are each described as sort of a musical "part one" to the songs that follow, which is an undeniable connection.

Maybe I'm just not hearing them yet, but I hear NO similarities whatsoever to Surrounded, Another Day, or Take the Time.  Either the connections to those songs don't exist whatsoever, or they are much more subtle.

My take:  Lots of similarities.  Some no doubt very real and intentional; some no doubt completely imagined by us fans (or, perhaps real, but not originally intended by the band).  Lots of differences as well.  It is very interesting to me that DT were able to simultaneously make several different instrumental connections to their perhaps most universally respected "classic album" while also creating something that is at the same time fresh, unique, and modern-sounding.  It is also interesting to me that the connections seem to be done in so many different ways (i.e., structural similarities; tonal similarities; compositional similarities, etc.).  That, to me, is totally DT.

Great post bosk. After thinking about it a lot and listening to the album too, this is pretty much where I've landed. There are definitely some similarities, but a helluva lot more differences. The whole thing just makes the album feel very "DT", which is exactly what the band needed to do.

[Jaffa]

FWIW, the first time my 8-year old daughter heard On The Backs Of Angels, she said, "This sounds kind of like Pull Me Under."  I lol'd.

Your daughter is awesome.

[lumpy33]

having composed music for over 20 years, i have developed a certain writing style that makes me unique from other composers.  i feel this happens with all writers.  rush tunes are rush tunes, boston tunes are boston tunes, etc. 
similarly, it's the same few guys in d.t. writing the material over two decades - they're gonna develop habits over time that make the songs they write sound like dream theater songs.  other than obvious quotes from previous albums that they like to revisit for a moment, i'm not convinced the band decides to write anything based on their past compositions.  we may be just hearing the definitive writing styles of these musicians, and recognizing the compositional similarity over time in the various songs.  i'm guessing we could compare any two d.t. albums and find these similarities if we tried hard enough.
i haven't read the entire thread so i don't know if someone's already mentioned this yet, but it feels like we're all stoned trying to watch the wizard of oz while listening to dark side of the moon and going, "yeah, man - i can totally see how these match up!"

[MetalJens]

FWIW, the first time my 8-year old daughter heard On The Backs Of Angels, she said, "This sounds kind of like Pull Me Under."  I lol'd.

Your daughter is awesome.

this 

[KevShmev]

Not to resurrect this from the depths, but apparently Mike Portnoy posted this on Thiago's FB page yesterday:

Hey Dude, just wanted to let you know I feel bad the way you were dissed and cast out by the DT "fans"....truly sad....you brought up a very valid topic for discussion that I'm shocked is being so overlooked and ignored in DT fan discussion and I have no idea why the subject is so fucking "taboo"...? Anyways, best of luck man...don't let em keep ya down!!

Oy.

[ResultsMayVary]

Hey Mike, you know all that respect I gained for you in the past two months when you haven't said anything bashing-wise? Yea, that's all gone now.

Thiago came in here determined that he was right, insulting fans who didn't believe him, and then got banned for it. Not exactly the best way to discuss something. He was definitely in the wrong here.

[KevShmev]

Yep, Thiago's banning was his own fault.

This subject is not taboo, otherwise this thread wouldn't still be open.

[BlobVanDam]

The topic wasn't "overlooked and ignored". It was discussed to death!
Agreed with the last two posts.

[theseoafs]

Talking about DT in interviews is one thing, but it's another to actively seek out trouble like this.

[Perpetual Change]

Jesus Christ.

Thiago wasn't chased out. He made some valid claims, coupled them with bizarre, conspiracy theory like conclusions, and then got pissy when people called him out on it.

As far as Mike goes... beyond frustrated with him. I'm probably better of not even discussing it here.

[Bertielee]

Geez, how can't he just say nothing against DT for a while? He is the one who always keeps the fire burning on that subject. Phewww!
Yes, and Thiago went berserk when contradicted, hence violating the forum rules. He was banned for that, I guess?

B.Lee

[Zook]

Mike, you were still in the band when you guys wrote Endless Sacrifice, Sacrificed Sons, and The Ministry Of Lost Souls. 3 songs that are pretty much identical structure-wise. Can you stop your damn bullshit please? kthxbai.

EDIT: And before I get warned or banned: Adding fuel to a fire everyone wants out is bullshit.

[ResultsMayVary]

As far as Mike goes... beyond frustrated with him. I'm probably better of not even discussing it here.

Probably a good idea. My frustration and anger with Mike has just gone beyond general dislike now.

[Zook]

Would you say that your thoughts are boiling and you're full of rage?













Yeah I know, Iced Earth references don't work with other bands.

[ResultsMayVary]

Would you say that your thoughts are boiling and you're full of rage?













Yeah I know, Iced Earth references don't work with other bands.

I was hoping you didn't post the disclaimer. I had gotten the reference. 

[Zook]

[wasteland]

Not to resurrect this from the depths, but apparently Mike Portnoy posted this on Thiago's FB page yesterday:

Hey Dude, just wanted to let you know I feel bad the way you were dissed and cast out by the DT "fans"....truly sad....you brought up a very valid topic for discussion that I'm shocked is being so overlooked and ignored in DT fan discussion and I have no idea why the subject is so fucking "taboo"...? Anyways, best of luck man...don't let em keep ya down!!

Oy.

If he feels that the matter should be further investigated by DT fans, then he could come here and argue his position. We are the world's largest online community as far as DT is concerned. He's a user over here, now. If he has something to say to us all he's always welcomed to provide his insights and opinions.

That being said, if this thing is ever being discussed directly with him, I feel that he will have to bring some stronger arguements than Thiago's...

[bosk1]

Thiago came in here determined that he was right, insulting fans who didn't believe him, and then got banned for it. Not exactly the best way to discuss something. He was definitely in the wrong here.

Yep, Thiago's banning was his own fault.

This subject is not taboo, otherwise this thread wouldn't still be open.

Exactly what was said in these two posts.  And I'm also a bit surprised Mike did not acknowledge the other big problem with Thiago's posts:  the timing.  Other than the issue with insulting other posters, Thiago would have been given considerably more leeway had he waited until after the album was out rather than trying to steer people's perceptions before the album was even released.  From at least Octavarium onward, I remember Mike being extremely vocal about squashing leaks and premature album discussion of any kind so that people could form their own opinions based on actually listening to the albums in their entirety and holding the CDs in their hands.  I'm completely baffled as to why he wouldn't understand Dream Theater wanting that very same thing with the latest album.  These forums respected Mike's and the band's wishes in that regard in the past, and we will continue to do so going forward.

[KevShmev]

The way Thiago did it in the DT thread over at Portnoy's forum originally was pretty sad, too.  He posted it once, no one replied, so he posted it again, as if saying, "SOMEONE PLEASE NOTICE WHAT I HAVE FIGURED OUT!"  And yeah, doing it before the album was even out was very poor form.  It might have made people who hadn't heard the album yet go into with preconceived notions on what to look for and hear.   Portnoy used to look way down on that kind of stuff when he was in the band, but not anymore, I guess.

[wasteland]

Here's the message Thiago posted yesterday on his wall as response to MP's comment. He's definitely adding something new:

Thanks for stoppin' by to post this Mike. Really appreciate your concern!
I too initially was shocked at how overlooked this matter was, and later on at how it became a dirty subject in the DT community.

Had the ADToE/I&W thing been an intentional nugget (as I once thought), and the band came forward with it, I guess people would've been discussing how ingenious and cool a thing it was of them. As it turned out though, it looked like I was making stuff up and putting the band down to get some attention, so I became the villain.

Anyway, I'm okay with it now. It really only upset me that 1st week.
I've re-read my note many times, just to be sure I wasn't being unfair, unclear or disrespectful getting my point accross, and I still stand by those words. I figured, if ya ain't getting any hate you aren't making a difference. It's all part of the process.

What hurt me the most wasn't even the fan-related hate mail I got; that I can overlook easily; but actually a single message from an "insider" with some pretty mean and unfair accusations at me. I haven't made it public for obvious reasons, but if you want to discuss it feel free to email me at ThiagoCamposOfficial@gmail.com.

Having said that, we have a terrible tendency to focus on the negatives of any given situation. Now that I look back on the balance of all this, the positives outweigh the negatives at least a ten-fold. Many great people from around the world reached out to me to show their appreciation/admiration/respect for me and my work. At the end of the day that's all that matters, and I constantly remind myself of it in an effort to contain our terrible nature to let negativity take over.

For everyone else posting here, thank you for your continued support!
I'll be doing the best I can to make great music with Bad Salad to share with you all, as well as some cool collabs!
As for covering DT's music. I had enough of it for the time being.
The music is great, but I need more than that to be inspired to make a tribute to someone, and the spark just isn't there anymore. We will continue on covering Frost*, Metallica, Avenged Sevenfold, Rush and many others in the future, as was always the plan for the Split-Screen Covers project.

Take care all! Rock on!

[bosk1]

Again, clearly just the point of view of someone who "doesn't get it."  As this thread proves, he could have discussed his ideas to his heart's content, and it could have actually developed into a very cool discussion if he had gone about it properly, which he did not.

[Zook]

So John Myung sent him an angry letter?