Why is Systematic Chaos so underrated?

[lithium112]

I like SC. I would rate it 5th maybe, not because there's anything bad about it, but I find that it lacks any parts of true genius. One thing I find interesting is the many posts of the form:

"SC isn't a great album. The only good songs are X"

Where "X" is some list of songs. With the exception of ITPOE (which most seem to like), the lists are all quite different, however. Some people hate TMOLS while others love it (myself included). CM gets an equally controversial reception. Maybe this separation of opinion is contributing to the album's consistent low rankings.

For me, SC has always been a fun album to listen to and will continue to be so.

[pmahoney1337]

Many DT fans seem to believe DT have other better albums. Which doesn't mean they think SC is bad, It's just that there are other albums to talk about or listen to.

[bosk1]

Many DT fans seem to believe DT have other better albums. Which doesn't mean they think SC is bad, It's just that there are other albums to talk about or listen to.

That. 

[fleaman]

I think the latter part of your post there describes Octavarium (not the title track!) as a whole more than SC.

I totally agree!I believe that Octavarium (album) sounds really boring except These Walls..I cant stand listening Octavarium (the song) from begining to the end..Its just SO boring!

[Lowdz]

Among DT fans i believe that its the most underrated album!I think its their heaviest one along with Train of Thought which is great for me!Is it because DT fans dont like their metal to much heavy?Why do they put it on the bottom of their DT albums list?

Because it's got my highest quotient of least favourite DT songs among the high points. TDEN, CM, Repentence don't do it for me.

[MasterShakezula]

I think SC is a good, fun, album and such.  But in terms of individual songs, I'd say only ITPOE, CM, and Repentance would be among my DT favorites. 

Also, I'd say that Forsaken and TDEN are among DT's weakest songs. 

[darkshade]

I think the latter part of your post there describes Octavarium (not the title track!) as a whole more than SC.

I totally agree!I believe that Octavarium (album) sounds really boring except These Walls..I cant stand listening Octavarium (the song) from begining to the end..Its just SO boring!

I just don't understand.....

[MasterShakezula]

I think the latter part of your post there describes Octavarium (not the title track!) as a whole more than SC.

I totally agree!I believe that Octavarium (album) sounds really boring except These Walls..I cant stand listening Octavarium (the song) from begining to the end..Its just SO boring!

I just don't understand.....

Um, I don't, either.  Octavarium's easily my favorite of the last 4 albums.

[darkshade]

I think the latter part of your post there describes Octavarium (not the title track!) as a whole more than SC.

I totally agree!I believe that Octavarium (album) sounds really boring except These Walls..I cant stand listening Octavarium (the song) from begining to the end..Its just SO boring!

I just don't understand.....

It helps that I listened to the title track earlier today
Um, I don't, either.  Octavarium's easily my favorite of the last 4 albums.

[orcus116]

Well, when it comes to statements that basically say, "If you like this album then there's something wrong with your ears," then yeah, that's a little offensive, and it does hit me somewhat personally.

I didn't even say that. I meant the production is pretty obviously whacked. It had nothing to do with the quality of the music.

[TheSilentHam]

I think the latter part of your post there describes Octavarium (not the title track!) as a whole more than SC.

I totally agree!I believe that Octavarium (album) sounds really boring except These Walls..I cant stand listening Octavarium (the song) from begining to the end..Its just SO boring!

I just don't understand.....

I don't get it either.  I listen to all the long songs (including 8VM) to stay awake on long driving trips, specifically because it doesn't bore me.

[gabeh1018]

i never thought of SC as a bad album; however, i Usually listen to just CM, itPoE pt1, tDEN, and Forsaken in that particular order then the rest gets my listen if I haven't heard them in a couple of months. So having said that, the album is mediocre not bad. For me at least.

[Pols Voice]

There are three good tracks: In the Presence of Enemies Part 1, Repentance (up until the voice samples, where it begins to drag), and The Ministry of Lost Souls. TMOLS is a very strong song, I think, except for the shoehorned in obligatory crazy instrumental section. Forsaken is silly but tolerable, Constant Motion is just silly, TDEN and Prophets are War are terrible, and ITPOE Part 2 is just...ugh. So it's not a very good album. But I still like it more than Octavarium, which I like less than almost any other fans do for various reasons.

[manticore999]

I think the latter part of your post there describes Octavarium (not the title track!) as a whole more than SC.

I totally agree!I believe that Octavarium (album) sounds really boring except These Walls..I cant stand listening Octavarium (the song) from begining to the end..Its just SO boring!

Agree completely.  These Walls is the only song I can listen to (and I REALLY like it)!  I can fall asleep waiting for Octavarium to kick in - totally lose interest. 

[dongringo]

As far as my country is conserned i can assure you that 9.9 out of 10 DT fans list Octavarium as their worst DT album!They state the exact hate posts for Octavarium that you SC dislikers said on this post..However on this forum i noticed that many people like Octavarium alot and some even suggested it for a beginer DT fan!We like the fact that SC is heavy and fun to listen!I guess its a matter of mentality of each country too.

Octavarium is my favorite DT album. But that's for another thread. SC is down there on my list, but not below TOT and FII which are a huge step down from SC imo.

[TheGreatPretender]

I didn't even say that. I meant the production is pretty obviously whacked. It had nothing to do with the quality of the music.

Well, I thought the production quality was great. Better than their first three albums.

[SystematicThought]

Awake had far better production in my opinion. Even Images and Words did. At least everything had balance

[TheGreatPretender]

Awake had far better production in my opinion. Even Images and Words did. At least everything had balance

Images and Words had better production than Awake, IMO. Awake just, I dunno, it had a very... Unpolished, rough sound to it. It had a very underground sound to it, I find. Whereas Systematic Chaos is the opposite, I think it sounds very clean and crisp. Yes, it's loud, but it's supposed to be loud. I think it sounds great.

[SystematicThought]

Another sad victim to the loudness war that Systematic Chaos. Sorry TGP.

Awake is indeed a little bit rougher, but it sounds good to me. Images and Words has the great late 80s sound to it.

[TheGreatPretender]

Another sad victim to the loudness war that Systematic Chaos. Sorry TGP.

Awake is indeed a little bit rougher, but it sounds good to me. Images and Words has the great late 80s sound to it.

I'm not saying Awake sounds BAD. I just don't think there any ONE particular way to mix and master an album that's better than another. It depends on what the overall tone they were going for. And in the case of Systematic Chaos, clearly they wanted a more powerful sound to it.
In the case of Awake, it sounded more like they were going for a gritty urban street rock kind of sound. Which works great in a completely different kind of way.

[Heretic]

I don't really dislike anything from SC, there's just so many more DT songs of a better caliber that I tend to rank it a bit lower compared to their other stuff.

[hefdaddy42]

I'm not doubting your sincerity or questioning your judgement.  But I must say that it is unusual to find someone who thinks that Systematic Chaos has better production than Images & Words or Awake.  SC is a wall of sound, there is no room for anything to breathe, no subtlety whatsoever.

But hey, if you like it better, you like it better.

[Moonchild]

Another sad victim to the loudness war that Systematic Chaos. Sorry TGP.

Awake is indeed a little bit rougher, but it sounds good to me. Images and Words has the great late 80s sound to it.

In the case of Awake, it sounded more like they were going for a gritty urban street rock kind of sound. Which works great in a completely different kind of way.

Not to be an asshole or question your musical taste but you sound like someone who has a limited access to albums in the prog rock/Heavy Metal genres because most people love 70's, 80's and 90's production values and Awake is only a product of the grunge influence in the 90's and it's very well produced, you can hear A, B and C loud and clear while SC is a wall of decibels.

On the musical topic, SC isn't underrated. It's just not that good to be hailed. There are albums that are defined by a certain song or by the cohesiveness and SC has neither. I look at it as the Dream Theaters "JP - Point of Entry":

ITPOE is a great song but should have been edited down to be just one song and the reckoning part should have never existed,
TDEN is a "let's be ToT" joke with Lord of the Ring lyrics
Constant Motion like someone above said is a bad use of the lead singer and I never liked it.
Forsaken is tolerable and enjoyable at parts
POW is my favorite song of the album because it sounds fresh live and I like the influence of both Queen and Muse in it but it's only a matter of personal preference.
Repentance is great right until the point where the spoken words go on and on and on.. it's another case of editing.

There you have it..I rate it lower than ToT and it's probably the worst JLB era album.. but it's better than most crap out there, DT raised the bar.

[TheGreatPretender]

Not to be an asshole or question your musical taste but you sound like someone who has a limited access to albums in the prog rock/Heavy Metal genres because most people love 70's, 80's and 90's production values and Awake is only a product of the grunge influence in the 90's and it's very well produced, you can hear A, B and C loud and clear while SC is a wall of decibels.

So you're saying that just because the production of the 70's, 80's and 90's was good in its own way, that makes the production of 2000's worse?

And I really don't understand what you mean by 'limited access'? Just because I listen to and like quite a few bands/songs from the 70's to 90's, doesn't mean I can't enjoy the current production values more. And yeah, I didn't connect Awake to Grunge, but now that you mention it, yeah, that is what the production quality reminds me of, and frankly, I'd prefer SC all the way to that.

[KevShmev]

By limited access, I am guessing he is questioning how much music from those genres you have heard if you think SC sounds great. 

Like too many other modern CDs, SC suffers by having almost no dynamic range.  It is the typical "let's make it sound loud, and if that requires compressing it all to the max, so be it" attitude that is far too prevalent nowadays.  Are there far worse offenders?  Absolutely.  But SC still, generally speaking, positively is another victim of the Loudness Wars.

Awake, on the other hand, has good dynamic range; all one has to do is listen to the first few minutes of Voice to realize this.   And not on an iPhone.  Or headphones.  Or computer speakers.  But on a real stereo.  A good one.

[snapple]

Gentle Giant is an example of a band from the 1970's that has incredible production and fantastic sound. They have heavy moments that don't get lost in "loudness". It comes off as tight musicianship and well balanced sound (the better thing about Gentle Giant is that they recreated this live. One of the tightest bands live).

Systematic Chaos, Train of Thought and Octavarium get the least amount of listens from me. They all have that song structure that involves trading off solos and what not. Now, I'm not saying they're bad at all. I am saying that they feel like the same album. I don't mind the trading solos in SFAM or SDOIT because those albums have different feels to them. Black Clouds also had a different feel (with the strong exception of AROP).

I think the point that James was abused on some tracks is absolutely spot on. TDEN could have been a great 4 minute song without either section in it (as in, picking the instrumental or the JLB parts) with a bit of polishing. Constant Motion makes James feel like an afterthought.


Finally, one point that was brought up by a couple of posters in this thread that I 100% agree with is - after Systematic Chaos, it was obvious Dream Theater needed a break.

[unklejman]

For me Systematic Chaos was DT's worst album.  The biggest problem is that it has good parts surrounded by not so good parts (Constant Motion (the instrumental section)). Or good songs with parts crowbar'd in that don't fit the song (The Ministry of the Lost Souls). Or just songs that sounded like other bands (Forsaken).

And then songs that just made me ask why (Prophets of War, The Dark Eternal Night). Even songs that I should like (Repentance) are in need of editing for excessive filler. The song writing was just uninspired sounding.

And then there are the lyrics and MP vocals which really didn't sit well with me.

[DJay32]

Wow, I think people are a little hard on The Great Pretender. Goddamn, guys. It's his opinion. Yes, he's pushing it, but then again, there's around 30 guys here who dislike Systematic Chaos and only three or four people who like it; of course he's gonna have to be vocal. It feels like an unfair fight, and it shouldn't even have to be a fight.

I also think every single post in these types of threads should have "CAUTION: THIS IS MY OPINION AND I DO NOT STATE ANY OF IT TO BE EVEN REMOTELY SIMILAR TO FACTUAL EVIDENCE" all over them.

For instance, my opinion (that I do not claim to be anything close to fact; the truth is, there IS no fact when it comes to music) is that Systematic Chaos is a very fantastic album. Its production and mix appeals to my ears a lot more than even some of my favourite Genesis albums, and I really love my Genesis. I'm not gonna say "It had a good/bad mix," because that's subjective just like the rest of this. I mean, there are people out there who are stating "Awake had a good mix" like it's fact. It didn't even have the most up-to-date mix for its time, though that doesn't mean it's bad. It's its own style. Personally, I think Awake's sound fits pretty well with some of the songs on the album, but.. actually, I think I look at Awake a lot like some people here look at Systematic Chaos. Some brilliant songs, but also a few songs that really.. make it so I can't listen to the whole album.

Thanks to my analogy there, I can understand how people feel when they talk about Systematic Chaos. Personally, I find "In the Presence of Enemies" to be pretty much Dream Theater's best epic if you don't count the Twelve-Step Suite, but I acknowledge that this is also just subjective. "Forsaken" has a nice sound to it, "Constant Motion" is extremely addictive (especially in Rock Band!), "The Dark Eternal Night" is nice and heavy for half of it, then pure ecstasy for that extended instrumental section, "Repentance" is also pure ecstasy (especially the ninth movement, oh my god @W@), "Prophets of War" was a very nice idea and executed in a well-done manner, "The Ministry of Lost Souls..." well, okay. I pretty much faze this one out until it gets to the instrumental section. It's really pretty, though!

I know my opinion is... quite a bit different than everyone else's. I'm not entirely sure why this is, but maybe it's because I listened a lot to this album, and I still do. Hell, "In the Presence of Enemies," "The Dark Eternal Night," and "Repentance" still get at least one play per day from me.

..okay, if you want me to criticize the album and be cynical, I will. "Forsaken" sounds quite generic (although still nice!), "Repentance" could have stood to lose the deep voice at the very end, and "The Ministry of Lost Souls" could have had a better opening. I don't place Systematic Chaos in even my top three albums, but then again, I don't have a top ten. My love for each album changes every day. I find it hard to dislike any of Dream Theater's work. I can criticize them, sure, but to dislike them would take some effort from me.

I think what makes this forum so rough about their opinions is that you guys arrange your albums in order of preference! To me, it's never black-and-white ("This is better than that"); the albums are not above or below another but next to each other. Systematic Chaos just happens to be a very addictive album with some very high peaks and the occasional not-so-high part that looks even worse in contrast to the highest peaks. But then again, so does every other album. Metropolis, pt. 2 has the joys of "Regression/Overture 1928" and "Fatal Tragedy" but the lesser "The Spirit Carries On" and "Strange Deja Vu" to make the whole album look.. odd to me. Awake has the impossibly-high peaks of "Voices" and "The Mirror" as well as the pretty good "Lifting Shadows off a Dream" and "Caught in a Web" to make the album look more like an assortment of songs than a single album. Hell, even Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence has....... I'll get back to you on that.

I'll end my long-winded ramble/rant with a tl;dr: I really like Systematic Chaos, but then again, I don't like to compare it to other albums. I prefer it when the albums work with each other. You give me an album that has more than one of my favourite songs of all time on it, and I'll give you a Dream Theater album. Or a Genesis one, but let's stick with the topic. All of this is, of course, just my humble opinion, and I already feel like a dick for sharing it so boldly. ^^; I'll shut up now.

[Moonchild]

Not to be an asshole or question your musical taste but you sound like someone who has a limited access to albums in the prog rock/Heavy Metal genres because most people love 70's, 80's and 90's production values and Awake is only a product of the grunge influence in the 90's and it's very well produced, you can hear A, B and C loud and clear while SC is a wall of decibels.

So you're saying that just because the production of the 70's, 80's and 90's was good in its own way, that makes the production of 2000's worse?

And I really don't understand what you mean by 'limited access'? Just because I listen to and like quite a few bands/songs from the 70's to 90's, doesn't mean I can't enjoy the current production values more. And yeah, I didn't connect Awake to Grunge, but now that you mention it, yeah, that is what the production quality reminds me of, and frankly, I'd prefer SC all the way to that.

I can understand your opinion, it's a matter of preference but some albums in the 00's were mixed to the point where each part..vocals, guitar, drums are mixed louder than the audio format (Digital CD) can fill it thus the sound becomes blurry. It's very easy to check this on Metallicas Death Magnetic "clipped" CD version and GHero version.

Either way ADTOE sounds like a winner in a warmer production value so I'm happy.

[fleaman]

Personally i never listened to old progressive bands..I really hate Rush and never liked genesis..Thats why i dont like awake and images and words that much.When it comes to prog apart from DT ofcourse, i like listening to the new wave o prog bands (NWOPG??ha)!''Between the buried and me'' and ''Protest the hero'' are good examples of what really is prog in the year 2011 along with DT. I am kinda used to modern productions thats why everything from SFAM to SC sound quite natural to my ears..SC is indeed their most clean and loudest album!But thats what makes it great to me.I really dont like that 80's production

[Zantera]

It's underrated because it's crap.

No but seriously, I used to like Systematic Chaos a lot when I got into DT, but it didn't age well with time.
Apart from ITPOE part 1 and Constant Motion, I really don't like much on the album.

[TheGreatPretender]

I can understand your opinion, it's a matter of preference but some albums in the 00's were mixed to the point where each part..vocals, guitar, drums are mixed louder than the audio format (Digital CD) can fill it thus the sound becomes blurry. It's very easy to check this on Metallicas Death Magnetic "clipped" CD version and GHero version.

Either way ADTOE sounds like a winner in a warmer production value so I'm happy.

Well, why don't I hear blurry? Why is it that when I put Systematic Chaos in, it still sounds fantastic to me?
Dream Theater is a pretty modern band, I don't see why it's being compared to "Prog Rock" legends like Genesis anyway. Hell, even Rush, in spite of being one of DT's main influences, was in its own era of music, and musically speaking, it was pretty much two generations ahead of DT.

And yes, I do listen to older music, and yes, I do listen to newer music. Listen to Fear Factory's new album. It's loud as hell, and SC has nothing on it, and I still think it sounds great.

I don't see why it's okay to say, "SC was mixed too loudly so it sucks," but it's such a damn sacrilege to say "Awake was mixed kinda grungy, so it sucks." not that I actually think it sucks, but I guess I'm just not that negative of a person. Still, I'd prefer SC's mix to Awake's mix any day.

It's a matter of preference, and to say that one is absolutely better than the other (whether it's 70's, 80's, 90's, etc.) is kind of elitist, quite frankly.

[dongringo]

I'd have to agree with TGP. SC is not a major victim of the loudness wars (I really hate that term). Anyway, I'm listening to the flac now through a V-Dac, Mapletree Audio Design Ear+ HD headphone tube amp and  Grado RS1 headphones. This is a VERY revealing set up and will pick apart recording and mixing quality like there's no tomorrow. SC sounds just fine. While slightly compressed, it's of little significance. Everything is transparent and the instrument separation is excellent.

Now you want to hear a real victim of the loudness wars, throw on Coheed and Cambria's Year of the Black Rainbow. I can't even listen to it on my rig. It's unbearable.

[orcus116]

I don't see why it's okay to say, "SC was mixed too loudly so it sucks," but it's such a damn sacrilege to say "Awake was mixed kinda grungy, so it sucks." not that I actually think it sucks, but I guess I'm just not that negative of a person. Still, I'd prefer SC's mix to Awake's mix any day.

I think you're assuming that someone commenting on the production of the album is equaling their opinion of the music on the album. No one is saying the mix sucks so the album automatically sucks but rather that a really crappy mix can hinder enjoyment of the music. Some parts of SC might've come of a lot better had the album had some breathing room.

[Ħ]

What do you guys mean when you say something is "compressed"?  And why is that bad?