Campaign to get WDADU up there with I&W + SFAM

[YtseBitsySpider]

I think everyone here agrees that the musicianship is just as good as any of their albums.  It's everything else about the album that takes a severe drop off.

No, I don't think they would.  Even the band members don't feel the musicianship is "as good."

Because the band members sounded better, with better production. That's an ego thing.

There's just so much "triggered snare" I can take before I need to hear some "actual" drumming to be impressed.

[MasterShakezula]

I think everyone here agrees that the musicianship is just as good as any of their albums.  It's everything else about the album that takes a severe drop off.

No, I don't think they would.  Even the band members don't feel the musicianship is "as good."

Because the band members sounded better, with better production. That's an ego thing.

There's just so much "triggered snare" I can take before I need to hear some "actual" drumming to be impressed.

Wait, triggered snare?

I've heard of the use of triggered bass drums, but is there really a need for the use of a triggered snare?  And on which albums was the snare triggered?

[YtseBitsySpider]

On both of the HOLY GRAILS I believe.

Images and Words
Awake

of course he's still hitting them in time and it's still impressive drumming...but....he was so raw on WDADU....much more Neil Peart like..in my opinion.

[hefdaddy42]

Heck no.  Its got good songs, sure, but they don't hold a candle to anything on Images, 6DoiT, Scenes, Octavarium, Awake, or most of Falling Into Infinity and Black Clouds.  Plus, Charlie's not a great singer and yeah, the production is balls-awful.

This.

A trifling euphoria
Was such an untimely religion
Maybe your life can explain
The reason for my indecision

Is better than something like:

Watch me crawl from the wreckage
Of my silence
Conversation failing

No it isn't.

And triggered snares were only used on I&W.

[Infinite Cactus]

1.Awake
2.Images And Words
3.When Dream and Day Unite
4.Falling Into Infinity
5.Black Clouds And Silver Linings
6.Octavarium
7.Train of Thought
8.Scenes From A Memory
9.Systematic Chaos
10.Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

[MasterShakezula]

On both of the HOLY GRAILS I believe.

Images and Words
Awake

of course he's still hitting them in time and it's still impressive drumming...but....he was so raw on WDADU....much more Neil Peart like..in my opinion.

Hmm.. I knew about I&W having its share of processing with the snare.  However, I'm doubting that Awake had triggering on the snare.  I agree with you on WD&DU having a much looser feel on the drum-work.  Being a percussionist, myself, and owning an instructional video from the FII/Metro era and a number of official transcriptions of stuff from the 90s, it definitely seem that from I&W onward, MP was essentially adhering to strict, composed parts.  

[Jaffa]

Maybe if I heard a polished studio rerelease with JLB on vocals, I'd like it more.  But I still don't think I'd like it THAT much.  Most of the songs are only 'ok' to me, even in terms of interesting music.

[GavinMangini89]

And mike's drums never quite sounded as good after WDADU.

Nope. Your opinion is wrong.

[Dellers]

It will never be anything else than my least favorite DT album. I don't listen to it, because the sound is too bad. Some of these songs are very good live, but the record is the worst sounding in my collection of more than 1000 albums. Honestly, I could easily have made it sound better myself.

[j]

WDADU falls just outside of my top 4. Not as good as Images, Awake, Scenes, or Six Degrees, but better than Train of Thought, Octavarium Systematic Chaos, and Black Clouds.

This, I think.  I definitely wouldn't go so far as to rank it above I&W or Awake for sure, and probably not SDOIT or SFAM either.  But it's easily better than everything else.

Dominici's vocals aren't spectacular, but they're fine.  Hardly the train wreck they're made out to be, and LaBrie (while he'd no doubt dominate these songs in the studio) absolutely does NOT sound better on WDADRU.  I do understand why they are grating to some people, but LaBrie's vocals can be the same way on occasion.

The production sucks, but I don't really understand how that is SO important to some people, to the point where it "ruins" the music.  Before I found this forum and started to read people's complaints, I never ONCE noticed production quality--good or bad--in anything I listened to.  And at any rate, it was a low-budget album made by a bunch of 20 year old kids.  It shouldn't be expected to sound polished and commercially viable; in fact, I consider that part of the appeal.  It's a really cool album if you can listen to it for what it is, and forget about what you think DT is "supposed" to sound like.

-J

[JayOctavarium]

'the killing Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnndddd' - charlie

AHHHAHHAHAHAHAAAHAAHAAAAHAAAAAA!!!!

[stryker]

WDADU falls just outside of my top 4. Not as good as Images, Awake, Scenes, or Six Degrees, but better than Train of Thought, Octavarium Systematic Chaos, and Black Clouds.

This, I think.  I definitely wouldn't go so far as to rank it above I&W or Awake for sure, and probably not SDOIT or SFAM either.  But it's easily better than everything else.

Dominici's vocals aren't spectacular, but they're fine.  Hardly the train wreck they're made out to be, and LaBrie (while he'd no doubt dominate these songs in the studio) absolutely does NOT sound better on WDADRU.  I do understand why they are grating to some people, but LaBrie's vocals can be the same way on occasion.

The production sucks, but I don't really understand how that is SO important to some people, to the point where it "ruins" the music.  Before I found this forum and started to read people's complaints, I never ONCE noticed production quality--good or bad--in anything I listened to.  And at any rate, it was a low-budget album made by a bunch of 20 year old kids.  It shouldn't be expected to sound polished and commercially viable; in fact, I consider that part of the appeal.  It's a really cool album if you can listen to it for what it is, and forget about what you think DT is "supposed" to sound like.

-J

This!  I usually rank it around 5th or 6th when it comes to DT albums.  It took me a while to get past the production, but I still really enjoy it!  I scored the vinyl record from a buddy of mine who knows I'm huge into Dream Theater.  It's actually a promotional copy he got when he worked in radio.  I love giving it a spin on my turntable. 

[bosk1]

Dominici's vocals aren't spectacular, but they're fine.  Hardly the train wreck they're made out to be, and LaBrie (while he'd no doubt dominate these songs in the studio) absolutely does NOT sound better on WDADRU.  I do understand why they are grating to some people, but LaBrie's vocals can be the same way on occasion.

I don't think most people would consider them a "train wreck."  You don't need to exaggerate to make your point.  Many people do find them subpar, myself included.  And while there is definitely a good deal of subjectivity to that, the fact is that, for the most part, the songs were not written with Charlie's range or vocal abilities in mind, and it shows.  (Tengential issue:  He has some really odd note choices as well)  I strongly disliked him as a singer for the longest time, until I heard him on To Live Forever on WDADRU, when I realized what a full, expressive voice he has when he is singing material that is comfortable for him.  And on his solo material, his voice really shines at times.  But that material is written with his voice in mind, so he can showcase what he is good at and sound great.  On WDADU, not so much.  There are times where he just sounds bad to me and to many others.  He simply isn't a good fit for that music.

The production sucks, but I don't really understand how that is SO important to some people, to the point where it "ruins" the music.  Before I found this forum and started to read people's complaints, I never ONCE noticed production quality--good or bad--in anything I listened to.  And at any rate, it was a low-budget album made by a bunch of 20 year old kids.  It shouldn't be expected to sound polished and commercially viable; in fact, I consider that part of the appeal.  It's a really cool album if you can listen to it for what it is, and forget about what you think DT is "supposed" to sound like.

Interesting.  I and many others do notice production quality, and it sometimes can get in the way of enjoying an album.  WDADU is a good example.  Maybe you didn't notice issues, but for many others, the production value is a detractor.

As far as the album just not sounding polished, yeah, there is an appeal to hearing a band in its raw, youthful stage.  But that isn't really the issue for most who dislike the album.  However, even for those who do feel it is somewhat of a factor, you can't really blame them if they discovered the band at a later stage where they had a very polished, streamlined sound.  When that sound is what hooks a fan and is what the fan is used to, you can't blame the person for hearing something that sounds very different and feeling like it doesn't fit.

[TheGreatPretender]

I don't see the point of this thread. I mean, to discuss the good and the bad of the album is fine, but as far as calling it a campaign... What can it accomplish? I can't just suddenly say, "Okay! I will start enjoying this album more, now!"

[Dublagent66]

I think everyone here agrees that the musicianship is just as good as any of their albums.  It's everything else about the album that takes a severe drop off.

No, I don't think they would.  Even the band members don't feel the musicianship is "as good."

Well, musicianship is one thing and production is another.  I'm talking about musicianship alone.  I thought most people here could make that distinction.

[YtseBitsySpider]

I don't see the point of this thread. I mean, to discuss the good and the bad of the album is fine, but as far as calling it a campaign... What can it accomplish? I can't just suddenly say, "Okay! I will start enjoying this album more, now!"

That actually happened for me with 6 Degrees. I poo-poo'd it continuously when it first came out...it took over a year of solid...er..."campaigning" by some members of this board for me to get on board.

Of course we're a long way from the album's initial release. Might be a tad late now.

[TheGreatPretender]

That actually happened for me with 6 Degrees. I poo-poo'd it continuously when it first came out...it took over a year of solid...er..."campaigning" by some members of this board for me to get on board.

Of course we're a long way from the album's initial release. Might be a tad late now.

Hmm..... Maybe I should make a campaign for Systematic Chaos. It's RELATIVELY recent...

[wammabe]

It's a great album. Change the album image and it may get to be one of my favorites!

[TheGreatPretender]

It's a great album. Change the album image and it may get to be one of my favorites!

So you're letting the album image affect how much you're enjoying the album? That's hardly fair.

It sucks that they didn't record it with Chris Collins, he actually had  a pretty powerful voice on him. Then after the recordings were done, they could've dumped him and hired Dominici as a replacement for a little bit, hahah.

[bosk1]

I think everyone here agrees that the musicianship is just as good as any of their albums.  It's everything else about the album that takes a severe drop off.

No, I don't think they would.  Even the band members don't feel the musicianship is "as good."

Well, musicianship is one thing and production is another.  I'm talking about musicianship alone.  I thought most people here could make that distinction.

Yes, and I'm talking about musicianship, not production.  The musicianship is obviously very good.  But most fans and, probably more importantly, the band would say the musicianship on WDADU is not "as good" as on later albums.

[YtseBitsySpider]

Well come on.
You're a much better forum administrator NOW..than you were a couple years ago....so..like anything people get better with time, practice, and experience.

I guess for me it's that RAW unpolished sound.
You know, before they got all commercial n shit.

[snowdog]

It will never be anything else than my least favorite DT album. I don't listen to it, because the sound is too bad. Some of these songs are very good live, but the record is the worst sounding in my collection of more than 1000 albums. Honestly, I could easily have made it sound better myself.

You could have easily made it sound better yourself with the equipment/technology that was available in 1989?  With the budget they had?

[Dellers]

It will never be anything else than my least favorite DT album. I don't listen to it, because the sound is too bad. Some of these songs are very good live, but the record is the worst sounding in my collection of more than 1000 albums. Honestly, I could easily have made it sound better myself.

You could have easily made it sound better yourself with the equipment/technology that was available in 1989?  With the budget they had?

Now I wouldn't know what kind of equipment they had, or the budget, so I'm not exactly gonna repeat myself (I should probably keep my mouth shut more often). But, I still can't stand the sound of it, and 1989 ain't that long ago. Listen to some stuff from the late 70's, say Earth, Wind & Fire. I haven't heard better sounding albums since. I guess the budget must have been it, I can't find any other reasonable explanation.

[JayOctavarium]

it was budget + time constraints wasnt it?

[The Dark Master]

Yes, and I'm talking about musicianship, not production.  The musicianship is obviously very good.  But most fans and, probably more importantly, the band would say the musicianship on WDADU is not "as good" as on later albums.

Actually, I know I've heard members of the band mention that even today, after two decades of experience, the material from WDADU is actually rather challenging, even for them, to play, because the compositions on that album are so insanely technical and complex, due to the youth of the band at the time and the need to prove themselves as musically accomplished.  In fact, I believe Myung explicitly states this in the WDADU chapter in Lifting Shadows.  You could argue that the compositions and musicianship on later albums is more mature, (which is technically true) but as far technicality of the musicianship is concerned, in many ways, although certainly not all, WDADU is as much if not more daunting then the albums that follow it.

[bosk1]

Well come on.
You're a much better forum administrator NOW..than you were a couple years ago....so..like anything people get better with time, practice, and experience.

Exactly.  

[MetropolisxPt1]

I actually love charlies voice on some songs.
I only have a remastered version of WDADU and the production never irked me.
original versions of  forever with charlie are better then JLB's

All of this aside its not that WDADU is a bad album, its that DT have made much better albums.

[pmahoney1337]

charlie is why its down at the bottom for me. but with james singing the songs its awesome (LATM)


'the killing Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnndddd' - charlie

Agreed.

[j]

Dominici's vocals aren't spectacular, but they're fine.  Hardly the train wreck they're made out to be, and LaBrie (while he'd no doubt dominate these songs in the studio) absolutely does NOT sound better on WDADRU.  I do understand why they are grating to some people, but LaBrie's vocals can be the same way on occasion.

I don't think most people would consider them a "train wreck."  You don't need to exaggerate to make your point.  Many people do find them subpar, myself included.  And while there is definitely a good deal of subjectivity to that, the fact is that, for the most part, the songs were not written with Charlie's range or vocal abilities in mind, and it shows.  (Tengential issue:  He has some really odd note choices as well)  I strongly disliked him as a singer for the longest time, until I heard him on To Live Forever on WDADRU, when I realized what a full, expressive voice he has when he is singing material that is comfortable for him.  And on his solo material, his voice really shines at times.  But that material is written with his voice in mind, so he can showcase what he is good at and sound great.  On WDADU, not so much.  There are times where he just sounds bad to me and to many others.  He simply isn't a good fit for that music.

Maybe they wouldn't use the term "train wreck" but the vast majority of people here think the vocals on WDADU are terrible, and it's probably the top reason people cite for not liking the album (with the production quality being a close second).  Not really an exaggeration IMO, but if it is, I'm certainly not above exaggerating to make a point.

It's hardly an outstanding vocal performance, but it's not BAD, except for maybe a couple parts of The Killing Hand.

The production sucks, but I don't really understand how that is SO important to some people, to the point where it "ruins" the music.  Before I found this forum and started to read people's complaints, I never ONCE noticed production quality--good or bad--in anything I listened to.  And at any rate, it was a low-budget album made by a bunch of 20 year old kids.  It shouldn't be expected to sound polished and commercially viable; in fact, I consider that part of the appeal.  It's a really cool album if you can listen to it for what it is, and forget about what you think DT is "supposed" to sound like.

Interesting.  I and many others do notice production quality, and it sometimes can get in the way of enjoying an album.  WDADU is a good example.  Maybe you didn't notice issues, but for many others, the production value is a detractor.

Part of it probably has to do with my not knowing much of anything about the process or any of that.  But if it's really so bad that it "ruins it" for people, as is said around here fairly often, I'd think it would at least bother me a LITTLE.

As far as the album just not sounding polished, yeah, there is an appeal to hearing a band in its raw, youthful stage.  But that isn't really the issue for most who dislike the album.  However, even for those who do feel it is somewhat of a factor, you can't really blame them if they discovered the band at a later stage where they had a very polished, streamlined sound.  When that sound is what hooks a fan and is what the fan is used to, you can't blame the person for hearing something that sounds very different and feeling like it doesn't fit.

Nah, obviously I don't "blame" anybody for liking or disliking it.  But I didn't start listening to DT until shortly after SC came out; that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be able to appreciate the evolution of their sound, or that anything that sounds different from the first songs I heard "doesn't fit" my perception of the band.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that I don't really understand where people are coming from at all when they say things like those I mentioned in my post.  And that's fine, I was just curious as to how some of those people might explain those opinions.

-J

[7thHanyou]

Nah, obviously I don't "blame" anybody for liking or disliking it.  But I didn't start listening to DT until shortly after SC came out; that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be able to appreciate the evolution of their sound, or that anything that sounds different from the first songs I heard "doesn't fit" my perception of the band.

Similar story for me--my first and only exposure to the band for a very long time was Scenes from a Memory, which I picked up in 2005.  While it ranks high on my list of favorites (second after Images and Words), it hasn't kept me from liking and appreciating early dream theater.  In fact, three of the albums in my top five are the first three albums of the band's career, with SfaM and Octavarium being the two exceptions from later in their career.

And while it isn't really the argument that their later stuff necessarily outranks WDaDU, I wonder why experience is being talked about much here at all.  There are several bands who were at their very best early in their careers, from obvious ones like Metallica to more subtle ones like, say, Kansas.  I know Dream Theater hasn't had the sweeping personnel changes other bands have had, leading to an expectation of improvement, but in point of fact their sound has changed so much that "improvement" is difficult to argue.

I don't know you very well, bosk1, but I'd argue that the "job" of an administrator is much more straightforward than the job of any artist.  More objective, if you will.  You can say that the guys of Dream Theater have improved as musicians, but that doesn't mean their material has gotten better.  There are countless examples of artists whose work, by most peoples' opinions, hasn't improved.

The majority seems to think Dream Theater's music has improved.  That's fine.  But experience isn't really an argument that answers that question, or explains why WDaDU is less well-liked.  Experience does not necessitate overall superiority.

I, for one, can't conjure up an emotional response, or very much interest at all, in a lot of the material from Dream Theater's most recent two albums. Listening to WDaDU--everything from the songwriting to yes, quite often Dominici's delivery--is a moving experience for me.  I'm glad they were able to compose music this good so early in their careers.

On a sidenote, Fly By Night is one of my favorite Rush albums. I like it more than most of the stuff after Moving Pictures. That's a pretty unpopular opinion as well, so maybe I just have bad taste. 

[Perpetual Change]

I find this whole "job" comparison pretty strange. You most certainly can get worse at a job the more you do it, just like you can get worse at playing an instrument and worse at singing. Why? Because everyone has their share of bad habits which they take to work with them, and if their good qualities are outnumbered by their bad ones, eventually the bad ones take over.

Case and point? Geoff Tate. There's a guy whose singing habits have utterly destroyed his voice. And, you know, I'd say the production is another good point. People have been producing albums for a long time, yet production standards have only gone down. I'd say that When Dream and Day Unite sounds MUCH better than Systematic Chaos or Black Clouds. While the latter sound more like what we're used to listening to these days, on WDADU I can hear every note John and John play, every key Kevin strikes, every drum and cymbal Mike strikes and, unfortunately, every note that Charlie sings. By comparison, a lot of newer Dream Theater albums sound like mushy walls of sound with nowhere near the clarity and distinction of instruments WDADU boast.

And while we're on the forum admin thing, those also have a tendency to get worse over time, especially if the admin in question wasn't a great one to begin with. You hear tons of stories about forum admins who woke up one day and decided to proverbially flip-off the user-base, whether it be in the form of those famous mass-bans that have happened plenty of places or just the steady increase in abusing power over time that I've seen happen everywhere. This kinda stuff never happens in the beginning, but after people have been around for a couple of years.

So there ya go. Optimism and Pessimism I guess. Choose one!

[bosk1]

Well, I've been flipping off the user-base here since day one, so your comparison is rubbish.  *flips you off*

[Perpetual Change]

Well, I've been flipping off the user-base here since day one, so your comparison is rubbish.  *flips you off*

Well, if that's the case, you've still gotten a lot worse at it. You're not even around to flip people off on the weekends anymore. See?  

So my comparison stands

[bosk1]

I was never around to flip people off on weekends.  It just took you this many years to notice the obvious.  Which I guess means you are ever so slowly improving.  Which cuts directly against your argument.  Which means your comparison does NOT stand, and I win.  Flawless victory.  

[Perpetual Change]

 

I was never around to flip people off on weekends.  It just took you this many years to notice the obvious.  Which I guess means you are ever so slowly improving.  Which cuts directly against your argument.  Which means your comparison does NOT stand, and I win.  Flawless victory. 

But, if we're gonna talk about the obvious, it's that When Dream and Day Unite is better than some, if not many, later Dream Theater records. So there ya go.