Just realized what it is about TCOT that throws me

[JPX]

It seems like a pretty traditional structure to me.

intro - verse - chorus - verse - chorus - interude - outro

I'm sorry, but this is oversimplifying the song to the point of absurdity. The intro itself consists of 5 different parts. There are also two distinct verse sections (verse and prechorus?). The interlude includes a solo, as well as another completely different section and the "outro" could easily be a song by itself. Not to mention the instrumental sections intertwined with the verses and choruses.

So? The arrangement is still the same regardless of how many parts make it up.

[hefdaddy42]

Thoughts?

Two is a green number, while one is blue.  Meanwhile, three seems somewhat orange.

[Jirpo]

I loved the song structure of The Count, the slow section built up to the ending very nicely.

[Ħ]

In terms of intensity, bosk, I think you underrate the outro.  I wouldn't give the outro 3>5>7, even in terms of intensity.

[ubit]

bosk-

I personally think that the song that you are pointing to as a comparison (Octavarium) is more of the anomaly - most songs do not have linear build-ups.  I think most songs kind of go 1-5-10-5, or something in that general "bell curve" kind of thing.  I think TCOT is more standard in that sense, really.  Thoughts?

[energythief]

Biggest problem for me (apart from my now well-documented hatred of the lyrics and Mike's vocals) is the "WHOOAAAAA" section. It should have built up and up, exploding in a similar way to Learning To Live. Instead, it starts to climb, builds a little bit of anticipation, and then.... slides down and ends weak.

I always get the mental image of a Volkswagon Beetle failing to make it up a steep hill, and just rolling back, defeated. It's a very unsatisfying end to the song.

[darkshot]

I can understand why that part might throw you off, but personally I enjoy it when a song doesn't behave the way you expect.  The swell section is one of my favorite parts of the song, especially live.  It contrasts so well with the upcoming finale and makes it so you fully appreciate the climax.  The whole song from the beginning of the swell to the very end, really musically resonates with me.  Jordan's keyboard parts during the "whoooaaaoaoa" part gives me chills, it all just meshes together so well for me.  I suppose its all down to musical taste.

And for those who don't like the lyrics, I can't help but sing along to "now wait a minute MAAAAAAN!"  Its great fun  

[dongringo]

I think that section is awesome, and it adds a completly new and cool dimension to the song. I'm not bothered about the momemtun because there's enough time at the end to recover it.

This

[KevShmev]

bosk1, I get what you mean, but I don't think it matters that much, at least to me, and probably a not a lot of others.  Heck, one of the most popular prog rock pieces of all-time is the Yes classic, The Gates of Delirium, and that song is intense most of the way through, before finally building to a final five minutes plus which is very mellow, yet completely awesome.  There is no one set way of writing a great long song.

Heh. You know, ever since I heard TCoT for the first time, I've always considered it to be DT's Gates of Delirium.

Well, TCOT never gets as chaotic and utterly crazy as Gates does, but given the structure and ending, I can sort of see it. 

I think it is important to remember that not every DT epic has to have this huge, grandiose ending.  Sometimes, something more subtle and understated can be just as impressive, if done well.  In fact, it is arguably harder to end a long rock epic with a non-grandiose ending,  and to do it well. 

[reo73]

EDIT: After reading the posts in this topic, I'm reminded of how much better TCOT is than ACOS. Lyrically, ACOS wins by far, with a whole half TCOT being a joke lyrically. Musically, however, TCOT does what ACOS doesn't really do for me; it makes you feel. That absolute dread during the middle guitar solo, the peaceful, almost tragic look into the character's mind during the volume swells, and finally the hope that he ecstasy that he feels at the very end. The same can't be said for ACOS; I wish that finale had me emotionally involved as much as the great lyrics could have created.

Oh wow...this is heresy in my book.   TCOT better than ACOS?  Epic Fail!

[DJay32]

EDIT: After reading the posts in this topic, I'm reminded of how much better TCOT is than ACOS. Lyrically, ACOS wins by far, with a whole half TCOT being a joke lyrically. Musically, however, TCOT does what ACOS doesn't really do for me; it makes you feel. That absolute dread during the middle guitar solo, the peaceful, almost tragic look into the character's mind during the volume swells, and finally the hope that he ecstasy that he feels at the very end. The same can't be said for ACOS; I wish that finale had me emotionally involved as much as the great lyrics could have created.

Oh wow...this is heresy in my book.   TCOT better than ACOS?  Epic Fail!

In that case, I also epic fail. I mean, "A Change of Seasons" is an absolute classic and everything, but its structure is terribly hackneyed. Considering how old they were when they wrote it, I'm not holding it against them or anything, but the song is far from perfect. "The Count of Tuscany" tries something different with its structure, and personally, I love it for that.

[TheGreatPretender]

I think "Epic Fail" is a self describing phrase. Anyone who uses it to describe a statement describes themselves in the process.

[energythief]

I think "Epic Fail" is a self describing phrase. Anyone who uses it to describe a statement describes themselves in the process.

"Whenever you point a finger at another, three fingers point back at yourself."

[reo73]

EDIT: After reading the posts in this topic, I'm reminded of how much better TCOT is than ACOS. Lyrically, ACOS wins by far, with a whole half TCOT being a joke lyrically. Musically, however, TCOT does what ACOS doesn't really do for me; it makes you feel. That absolute dread during the middle guitar solo, the peaceful, almost tragic look into the character's mind during the volume swells, and finally the hope that he ecstasy that he feels at the very end. The same can't be said for ACOS; I wish that finale had me emotionally involved as much as the great lyrics could have created.

Oh wow...this is heresy in my book.   TCOT better than ACOS?  Epic Fail!

In that case, I also epic fail. I mean, "A Change of Seasons" is an absolute classic and everything, but its structure is terribly hackneyed. Considering how old they were when they wrote it, I'm not holding it against them or anything, but the song is far from perfect. "The Count of Tuscany" tries something different with its structure, and personally, I love it for that.

I know it's all different strokes...

For me the brilliance of ACOS is that it doesn't follow any rigid song structure.  I love how each of it's parts are different from the others and yet somehow it all flows beautifully.  It also has a nice rock fusion vibe and one of Petrucci's most emotive solos.  It's the quintessential prog-rock song.  

On the other hand TCOT is just a standard format song with a long ass intro, long ass middle section, and long ending.  There really isn't anything special about it's composition.  Yes the volume swell part is nice but somewhat dull also.  Plus the lyrics are just bad.

[MetropolisxPt1]

This whole section translates much better live.

[Aramatheis]

I'm just saying that since it has that very linear buildup feel, it just feels weird that it suddenly deviates from that and ends in a significantly less intense way.

I find that by quieting down the entire song for the ending, then popping back in with James' singing at the end of TCOT is much more intense than any other part of the song.

I mean, the emotion JLB puts into the vocals is just astounding to me. I tear up during the climax almost every time I hear it

[PixelDream]

I just came back from Bospop, DT wrapped up the festival. Played TCOT (and TGD as the encore, weird!). I definately perceived the swells section and the ending as the climax. In fact, that was definately the climax of the entire gig. Even for folks who don't like DT's weedly progfest. That section shows a very genuine emotion, completely devoid of all their excesses (and there were a lot of those, it's DT =P. If only the song had better verses.. Sounded a bit unpleasant live.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Your imagination is twisted.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

When I first heard the song, I was 100% with bosk's interpretation of it. I basically loved the song up until the volume swells, and was bored after. I didn't come back to it much at all until I heard it live, where it does indeed translate better. Even then, I was still reluctant to add the song to my regular rotation, but once I gave it a few more plays, I felt like that part fit better than I originally thought it did.

So now, it's one of my favorite DT songs. The volume swells still are my least favorite part of the song, and I wish DT picked a different way to get from the guitar solo to the acoustic section, but in the end it works pretty damn well.

So, ultimately, where I deviate from bosk's interpretation is that I do think the song's climax is at the end. Instead of putting it as 3>4>5>6>7>8>9>10>1>3>5>7, I'd say it's more like 3>4>5>6>7>8>8.5>1>3>5>7>9. The song seems like it's about to climax when the ambient part kicks in, as if that part is sort of suspending/slowing down time, and then the rest of the song is speeding up time back to normal speed and ultimately hitting the climax you expected to hit in the first place.

Because, when you think about it, while the verses and choruses of the first half of the song are plenty intense (and great), there's nothing in them that screams "THIS IS A CLIMAX" like the ending of Octavarium or ITPOE or TMOLS or LTL or SDOIT does. They're just heavy, intense parts. The actual last couple of minutes of TCoT, though, just feel like more of an epic ending. Perhaps not quite in the overstated vein of Octavarium, but then again, some of DTs most epic endings have been more understated (TMOLS and LTL, for example). You can be epic without being blatantly so, after all. The ending of TCoT just feels so much more resolved, and like so much more of a release, than anything in the first half.

So, while the volume swells do threaten to collapse the song under its own weight, I feel like they tie in well enough (with the ending melody being a prelude to the vocal melodies and the whole mood being set to build again), and the song builds back up well enough that not much is lost.

[CrimsonSunrise]

When you think about it, ACOS too "suffers" from the same problem: the "I'm sick of all you hypocrites" section is quite climatic, making that final climax somewhat overshadowed by its predecessor. And yet, it works.

EDIT: After reading the posts in this topic, I'm reminded of how much better TCOT is than ACOS. Lyrically, ACOS wins by far, with a whole half TCOT being a joke lyrically. Musically, however, TCOT does what ACOS doesn't really do for me; it makes you feel. That absolute dread during the middle guitar solo, the peaceful, almost tragic look into the character's mind during the volume swells, and finally the hope that he ecstasy that he feels at the very end. The same can't be said for ACOS; I wish that finale had me emotionally involved as much as the great lyrics could have created.

I respectfully disagree Hawk.  The Crimson Sunset is one of the most emotional climaxes and ending for a song to that I've ever heard.  The only song with a more dramatic ending for me is Stairway to Heaven.  We all have different tastes in music and hear things differently, that being said ACOS and TCOT aren't even in the same class for me.  ACOS is a sheer masterpiece.

[TheGreatPretender]

I respectfully disagree Hawk.  The Crimson Sunset is one of the most emotional climaxes and ending for a song to that I've ever heard.  The only song with a more dramatic ending for me is Stairway to Heaven.  We all have different tastes in music and hear things differently, that being said ACOS and TCOT aren't even in the same class for me.  ACOS is a sheer masterpiece.

To me the climax of ACOS is Another Day. After that, it's kinda like, "Okay, the most exciting parts are over, now it's just the last two parts of the song."

[dongringo]

TCOT imo is a sheer masterpiece. ACOS has never really done much for me.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Fair enough Don... we ALL hear things and react to music differently 

That being said...... ACOS whoops ass on TCOT     

[Elite]

The volume swells and the ending are the climax of the song. I take it OP has never seen TCOT live, but I have and twice they ending with this. The ending is majestic live and the volume swells build it up to that point by throwing all the motifs from the ending at you before that even has started. Then the acoustic guitar kicks in and the same guitar solo as at the beginning combined with the motifs in the melodies that have already been laid out before wrap up the song to a brilliant conclusion. Yes, this was the climax of the entire concert.

What someone said here before, yeah, you can actually simplify it down to absurdity and this structure:

intro - verse - chorus - verse - chorus - bridge - outro

actually serves that very well. As a musicologist though, it doesn't always work to simplify it down to the core as you miss out on a lot of stuff that happens. Actually, what TCOT does very well is that it is very reminiscent of a piece of classical music in the way that it lays out themes and motifs and repeats stuff. I think it's one of their better songs, and live it is so much stronger than on the record.

[ReaPsTA]

To me the climax of ACOS is Another Day. After that, it's kinda like, "Okay, the most exciting parts are over, now it's just the last two parts of the song."

What?  The emotional ideas of each section are completely different.  Another World is about the narrator's disillusionment with his life and the people around him and his decision to fight back against it.  The Crimson Sunset is about the narrator's life culminating in the passing on of advice to his son, the memories of his lived experience, and the empowerment of a philosophy lived in the moment.  The Crimson Sunset is great, but you can't get there without Another World, which represents a far different emotional state and is the starting point of the journey to The Crimson Sunset, which is represented in The Inevitable Summer, which is about re-invigoration and change and other things that are difficult to articulate.

[Mbarak]

Actually, what TCOT does very well is that it is very reminiscent of a piece of classical music in the way that it lays out themes and motifs and repeats stuff.

Agreed, but that won't be the first time DT did that (6DOIT, whole of SFAM, IPOE)

[TAC]

From the first listen, I've been amazed by TCOT. The swell section is really perfect. Any longer, and it would bore, but any shorter and it would lose its effect. It's great transistion from the first half to the next. As others have said, it sets up the ending so well. It's very cool live, especially the moment when JP switches from the effects to strumming his guitar.
The ending is one of the greatest climaxes in their catalog. It may not hit the emotional level of "I will live oooonnnnnnn" in ACOS, but it comes damn close.

[DJay32]

EDIT: After reading the posts in this topic, I'm reminded of how much better TCOT is than ACOS. Lyrically, ACOS wins by far, with a whole half TCOT being a joke lyrically. Musically, however, TCOT does what ACOS doesn't really do for me; it makes you feel. That absolute dread during the middle guitar solo, the peaceful, almost tragic look into the character's mind during the volume swells, and finally the hope that he ecstasy that he feels at the very end. The same can't be said for ACOS; I wish that finale had me emotionally involved as much as the great lyrics could have created.

Oh wow...this is heresy in my book.   TCOT better than ACOS?  Epic Fail!

In that case, I also epic fail. I mean, "A Change of Seasons" is an absolute classic and everything, but its structure is terribly hackneyed. Considering how old they were when they wrote it, I'm not holding it against them or anything, but the song is far from perfect. "The Count of Tuscany" tries something different with its structure, and personally, I love it for that.

I know it's all different strokes...

For me the brilliance of ACOS is that it doesn't follow any rigid song structure.  I love how each of it's parts are different from the others and yet somehow it all flows beautifully.  It also has a nice rock fusion vibe and one of Petrucci's most emotive solos.  It's the quintessential prog-rock song. 

On the other hand TCOT is just a standard format song with a long ass intro, long ass middle section, and long ending.  There really isn't anything special about it's composition.  Yes the volume swell part is nice but somewhat dull also.  Plus the lyrics are just bad.

Am I the only person who actually got the lyrics? "The Count of Tuscany's" second 'movement' (the five minutes of "bad" lyrics) is a very quirky section, not just lyrically but also musically. I request that you listen to the instruments in the background; ignore James for a bit and just focus on the music. It's incredibly quirky and goofy. The lyrics complement this quite well. Nothing about the second 'movement' sounds serious at all, and I don't take it as such.

Personally, structurally, I consider "The Count of Tuscany" to be a four movement piece, the first being the prelude (first three or four minutes), the second being the quirky lyrics (up until the "volume swells," if you will), the third being said "volume swells," and the fourth starting with the acoustic and going 'til the end. Even if the song was not canonically divided into four movements, it's how my mind thinks of the song. It's kinda like Pink Floyd's "Echoes," except with some of the quirkiness of Gabriel-era Genesis, including structurally, but with a sound that's pretty damn Rush-y.

As for a lack of forward progression in the song's structure, I agree with that, but that's exactly why I like it. "A Change of Seasons" may be well-written and well-paced, but I grew up with epics like that. It's not really that special to me. Sure, it's beautiful and it has some really good stuff in it, but it doesn't blow me away or catch my attention beyond the climaxes. On a first listen, I can predict the flow and get it pretty much right. "The Count of Tuscany" decides to progress, to try different things. And personally, I respect it for that.

I realize you don't think "A Change of Seasons" follows a rigid structure, and while that may be true on a general level (not verse-chorus-verse-chorus), it's rather predictable for a prog epic. Simple intro, expanding on the intro, vocals kick in somewhere, the song changes up for the second movement, things seem to get more intense, we're given a nice little musical tangent, progresses into different-sounding next movement, another musical tangent, ending. "A Change of Seasons" just decided to climax in the "different-sounding next movement" bit. And okay, I don't criticize it for that; I also think the next two movements are a brilliant way to ride off the climax. But in terms of progressive rock, that's not a very different song structure. It's fairly straightforward.

Now, I'm not going to debate about which is objectively better. I'm just offering my opinion. There is no right answer here, and personally I think, in a few decades, when Dream Theater is in the past, people will look back on them and respect "The Count of Tuscany" for trying different things. Then again, I also hope they'll respect "In the Presence of Enemies" a lot more, so what do I know?